Oh no!!! They are torturing my Blondie Bear!! :-( (hmmm, I bet its so he�s nekkid ;-) -- Castle of the White Knight

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Date Posted: 13:50:30 12/09/02 Mon
Author: Phaedra
Subject: Oh no!!! They are torturing my Blondie Bear!! :-( (hmmm, I bet its so he�s nekkid ;-)
In reply to: UHC 's message, "Topic: Why are they torturing Spike" on 13:30:28 12/09/02 Mon

Ok, first, I can only speak about eps up to the present, Never Leave Me.

Bit of confusion here: 1) the FE convinced Andrew to kill Jonathan ... for the blood? To open the portal? 2) When Jonathan�s blood DIDN�T open the portal, the FE ordered Andrew to purchase lots and lots of pig's blood?!!! So, it�s not picky what kind of sacrifice is made to open the portal? 3) When Andrew was �captured� by Willow and the FE did not get its supply of pig's blood, the Harbingers (sp?) were sent to capture Spike to use as a blood sacrifice ... a vampire?!! Don�t you usually have human sacrifices, virgins at that!!

End of confusion speak.

Ok, so, they now have Spike, strapped to the wheel, carving intricate designs in his chest *drool* ... Pardon me ... And when inverted over the seal, his blood opens the portal and releases the First Vampire.

Now he�s going to be tortured?!!! Why. Usually torture is done to get information (or pleasure) and since when is Spike, Mr. Information guy. I can see why they would do it without his shirt � prolly didn�t go pick it up from the school basement floor. But, the torture? Hmmmmm.

Drawing Buffy in ... Can�t see that either � she�s already in. And, like you say UHC, she is unaware of the torture.

I agree, Trojan horse is farfetched. First of all, because, HELLO, already in with the Scoobs. In fact, they had to break into the Summers household for him!!! You�d have to be blind to think he hasn�t already infiltrated the gang.

I agree, this has nothing to do with comparing Angel�s torment with Spike�s. I, for one, truly see different paths for the two. And, contrary to popular belief, I don�t think the writer�s are throwing this in for a sympathy card for Spike.

My theory: I see it as a means to break him. Whatever the FE had/has planned for Spike, he�s been fighting it all the way. The FE has said that in so many words � he�s not doing as he�s being told. Soooooooo, the FE WANTS something out of Spike, and I don�t know what that is.

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[> [> I think we agreed in there more than ever before -- UHC, 16:15:05 12/09/02 Mon [1]

First of all, I don't think the Trojan horse is disqualified by the reasons you gave. The first does know that they had Spike tied to a chair, and then chained to a wall. They know he is at least suspected of all this. So the First knows that they aren't going to be quick to just accept him as completely safe. And as long as they are taking precautions where Spike is concerned, it might be that The First can't do everything he/it wants him to. And also I have to agree, Spike was resisting. More brain washing was needed.

But could it be possible that the brainwashing is being done in a way that will make Buffy and Co. more sympathetic. (although I'm not sure Buffy can be alot more sympathetic, she seems a bit twisted now) Apparently there is no middle ground for that girl, she is either heartless or over board emotional.

But what I'm saying here agrees with your more conditioning theory. And it still kinda incorporates the Trojan Horse idea. And at least I kinda buy this.

Though it will still depend on what exactly is involved in the more Spike torturing.

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[> [> [> :-) Better than fighting, huh? -- Phae, 16:31:32 12/09/02 Mon [1]

I still disagree on the Trojan horse theory. For it to be effective, he would have to NOT change every time he is triggered. We see he very much changes and throws up red flags when he does so. PLUS, if the FE would quit messing around with his brain, he would be accepted quicker, faster, easier, more completely. But, nooooooooo, the FE has him killing again. So, Trojan horse theory = lame (IMHO) ;-P

Have I told you lately how cute you are? I have? Oh, ok ... never mind :-.)

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[> [> [> [> See I'm confused -- UHC, 16:35:18 12/09/02 Mon [1]

By trojan Horse I mean that basically what spike has already been doing. He seems innocent enough normally. Even to himself. But when Triggered it all jumps out. Like you said big Change.

I don't know if I beleive Spike will conciously take action against the scoobs. But I still think this might be further programming.

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