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| Subject: its ok Jim | |
Author: Owain (UK) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 18:28:45 11/23/04 Tue In reply to: Jim (Canada) 's message, "Brits, don't hate your country, just its government" on 01:34:28 11/23/04 Tue Jim, in many ways the governemnt is the country. Its not like this is a dictatorship. Dont worry though I hate the country, thats why I am doing what I can to make it better, bring it back to the way it should be and once was. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ha ha ha | |
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Author: Mister New Statesman [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:42:26 11/23/04 Tue Ahem. Owain? You're, what, fourteen? Sixteen? Eighteen, at most? How in God's name would you know how the country used to be? You're being fed sentimentalist garbage by the "Land of Hope and Glory" lobby and their propagandist rag, the Daily Mail (maybe you read intelligent trash and pick up a copy of the Times every so often, but I can't for a second imagine that you'd ever read a decent paper like the Telegraph or the Independent). How would you know how Britain "should be"? You don't know how good you've got it, m'lad. More kids are going to university every year than ever before (and yes, that probably means that you can't buy a place at Oxbridge any more, but you're probably heading to Durham or some other rugger bugger establishment anyway). Britain's economy is one of the most dynamic in the world, thanks mostly to an alumnus of my university, Edinburgh (Gordon Brown, if you hadn't worked it out). Living conditions have improved, and people are living longer as well. Plus, we have personal lifestyle freedoms that we'd never have had under Thatcher. Do you really want to give that all away? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Dont be silly | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:53:57 11/23/04 Tue My comments is not related to our standard of living. Iknow all of what you said, inafct its what I usualy say to peopel who say they want to go live in another country (something I believ to be truly rediculous). Its not my standard of living I believe to be at stake. Its about nationhood. The existance of my nation is in jeaprody (reffering to Britain here not Wales or England). I see my nation threatened everywhere by seperatists, europhiles, republicans, anti-traditionalists and the extreme left. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Oh and... | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:56:19 11/23/04 Tue I am infact old enought to remember how Britain should be. Pre-1998 was just fine for the most part, at least when it comes to the issue most on my mind. I am 16 in 13 days btw. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well, couldn't you possibly argue that Britain is where it is today because of Europe? | |
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Author: Mister New Statesman [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:33:40 11/23/04 Tue Let's consider for a second why so much capital resides in the city of London: it's because London is a financial hub, but more specifically because it is the economic capital of Europe. And the reason for its continued success, despite Britain's non-membership of the Euro, is because the city has adopted the single currency de facto, if not de jure. Most of the transactions now taking place in Britain's financial markets are done in Euros. And companies situate themselves in Britain because Britain gives them an entry into the European market. If we pulled out of the EU, all that capital would leave. Joining EFTA? What a joke. EFTA pales in comparison, and only allows for free trade in a very limited number of commodity markets. The reason for Norway's (and Switzerland's) prosperity is because they have other ways of making money: the Norwegians have oil, the Swiss have an immoral and fraudulent banking system (the Nazis hid their money in Swiss banks, as did Idi Amin and Yasser Arafat). So don't give me this anti-European nonsense. Yes, in budgetary terms, the British government gives less to the EU coffers than it receives (though it pays less per capita than the Dutch, the Germans or the Italians). But it more than makes up for this cash in trade benefits. And Ed? Polyglot bureaucracy meeting in secret? The new constitution actually opens up previously-secret Council meetings to media scrutiny. And if you'll look at this Commission fun we're having of late, Parliament is actually doing what it is supposed to do, for once. As the EU gains more powers, it will become more democratic (and let me remind you that 10 whistle-blowers were recently fired from British civil service posts, so don't suggest that British politics is any more honourable). Germans will not accept being governed by corrupt bureaucrats. Neither will the Austrians, nor the Dutch, nor the Scandinavians - and together with the Brits, that's a powerful lobby for change. Owain, what you can't seem to understand is that Europe is not trying to take your nation away. If anything, the continent is becoming more British. If you're looking for a new arena to dominate, Europe is your place. I was talking to a French friend yesterday who works for UKIP in Brussels (oddly enough) and she told be something that's quite apposite to this comment: "You British, you always try to run things. You're just like us French: we're both stubborn and want to get our way. The French press is saying exactly the same thing about you that yours is saying about us - British exceptionalism is dictating the whole European agenda, and la perfide albion is always telling us what to do." [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Britain is doing well because it threw out hard left socialism in the 1980's | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:01:08 11/23/04 Tue [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Depends what you call "better", m'boy... | |
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Author: Mister New Statesman [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:24:10 11/23/04 Tue Are you a Nozickian or a Rawlsian? Do you believe that the hardship of the worst-off is balanced by the fabulous riches of the best-off? Or do you think that, ultimately, we can sacrifice a little wealth in exchange for a better deal for those on the "wrong side of the tracks"? Because I have no problem paying a few more quid in taxes in exchange for decent public services, better living conditions for the poor and a better quality of life. I've lived in the welfare states of Europe (well, some of them, at least) and the level of general happiness and contentment among the population was much higher than what I'm encountering up here in Scotland (though, I must admit, I've only been living north of the Tweed for a few months). [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I remember Britain in the 1970's and I am not a socialist | |
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Author: Jim (Canada) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:33:04 11/23/04 Tue [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ah, yes, but the problems of Britain in the 1970s were to do with oil, not with socialism | |
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Author: Mister New Statesman [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 21:29:59 11/23/04 Tue [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: London | |
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Author: Paddy (Scotland) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 12:48:59 11/24/04 Wed The idea that London is full of capital because of the EU and that it is dependent upon the EU is simply laughable. The City deals globally and is equipped to deal with whatever currency is required in order to carry out transactions. It is the world's financial centre. Yes it is the "European" financial centre due to it's geographical location, but it has nothing to do with the European Project. London is also the financial centre of South America but this does not give evidence of South American domnance over London. Similarly, it would be technically accurate to say that the ideas in Magna Carta and the Declaration of Arbroath are "European" in origin, while in fact they had little historical relevance on the continent of Europe. They are actually British. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The Norwegians have half of North Sea oil? Who do you think has the other half? | |
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Author: Ed Harris (Venezia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 21:59:53 11/23/04 Tue And I'm not sure about your figures for Italy. The locals here are quite convinced that they get more money per capita from the EEC than they contribute to it. As far as I am concerned, Britain and Germany are the greatest net-contributors to the Euro-'budget'. Holland gives more per head than either, but has a population of about three people and so hardly contributes that much. Britain used to give more per head to charity than the USA, but the USA still gave three times as much, because of its more signigicant population. (Now that we are more prosperous, of course, we give less than the USA per capita by about 60%...) Moreover, you seem to be mistaking British members of the FCS for 'little Englanders' - those chaps who want our island to be an island in every sense: culturally, economically, politically, intellectually. On the contrary; the word "federal" in the title is your clue that we are, in fact, just as much federalists as Europhiles. We differ not in the principle of internationalism, co-operation and harmony; but we differ from the Europhiles simply in that we believe in a Federation with a different set of people. It is cultural and sentimental as much as economic: it is a failing of socialists such as yourself to see no human motive but the economic imperative. A stable and harmonious relationship is good for Britain, but that does not mean that I feel that creating a single European state reflects my fundamental interests. Moreover, you express your admiration for Europe and the European way of life. I too love Europe - I have been living here for some time - but that does not make me European. I like women, but that does not make me a woman. In addition, I've met dozens of people like me - British students who have been studying in Europe - who say exactly the same thing. I simply will not accept that, in an era of free trade, we need to live in a European Superstate in order to maintain our economic interests. To be sure, the US of E would not harm our economic interests. But given the political attitudes of France and Germany, our cultural identity - for which you may not have much respect, but I do - would certainly be erroded. Go and read Jean Monnet, where he says that he wants "to create a political, economic and military superpower TO RESIST THE ENCROACHMENT OF ANGLO-SAXON VALUES." Does this inspire your confidence in the tolerance of Europeans towards our distinctive historical and cultural experience? Maybe it does exactly the opposite, and that is why you approve of it. Like Messrs Blair and Brown, you instinctively deride British traditions because they somehow call to mind images of the past which you don't like, although you're not sure what they are. So, if we can enjoy the same economic prospects outside and inside, but our cultural integrity only on the outside, why not stay out? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: RE: To Mister So and So | |
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Author: Mister New Statesman [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:58:25 11/23/04 Tue "Nonsense - London has been a trading capital long before the Euro was a glint in a Eurocrat’s eye. If Europe and its institutions are responsible for London’s success, why have the cities that have embraced Europe’s institutions more enthusiastically not been more successful?" - Because London was a natural financial centre, and it makes sense to situate one's European HQ there: but only if Britain is in the EU, because there's no point in having a regional headquarters that is outside the region. I grant you the fact that the Euro does not make that much difference in all of this, for it is trade that is the primary concern here. "Oh my God, you don’t really believe that do you. Name a single political institution in the world that has gained more power, and somehow become more benign! Please." - One single political institution? What about the U.S. government? Let me remind you that, for the first few decades, Presidents were not popularly elected and the Senate was appointed by the states. You may not agree with the political decisions of the U.S. of A, but at least you can grant that (apart, of course, from that rather inconvenient electoral college nonsense) it is a democratic system. And one could further argue that, considering the fact that the Lords is an unelected house and that FPTP gives such enormous majorities, Britain's system is more like an electoral dictatorship. This is, of course, in contrast to European concensus politics in which the majorities are listened to and nobody has a stranglehold on power. I am not going to argue for the merits of either, because there are large and obvious weaknesses in proportional representation, but if Europe evolved into something like American democracy then at least it would be a democracy. "I’m afraid they [Northern Europeans] already have [accepted being governed by corrupt bureaucrats]." - No, they haven't. Let me remind you that two of the most vocal opponents of Barroso's election were German (Martin Schulz of the Socialists and Daniel Cohn-Bendit of the Greens), one was Danish (Jens-Peter Bonde, of the same group as UKIP) and one was British (Nigel Farage of UKIP). The same goes with this new furore over Jacques Barrot, the French transport commissioner who "forgot" to tell everyone that he was convicted of embezzlement a few years ago. People are raising a stink about this - you have to pay attention to European affairs. Pick up a copy of the European Voice every so often. Go on. "Replacing a sovereign Parliament with an unelected Commission, a puppet Parliament, European arrest warrants, presidential Government and unrestricted expenses are NOT BRITISH TRAITS as far as I can tell." - I was talking more about culture, actually, as in popular culture, language, music, literature and all that. But if you want to talk politics: Unelected commission? First of all, the commission is chosen by the member-states and not by itself. It is, thus, responsible to the wishes of the national governments. Plus, it only has power to initiate legislation, not to pass it. That is down to the Parliament and the Council. The Council is the ensemble of government ministers from the member-states, THUS representative of the wishes of the national governments, and THUS representative of the wishes of the people. Reading up on this might be a good idea. Talking out of one's arse is generally not a good idea. Puppet Parliament? Well, I thought that you wanted power for the member-states! The Parliament has so few powers because national governments do not give it powers. Now, however, it is beginning to flex its muscle. I am not sure what your opinion is on whether this is a good thing, because your views confuse me. European Arrest Warrants? Ah, yes, but issued by whom? The European Public Prosecutor. Who is responsible to whom? The member-states. Presidential Government? Utter crap. In fact, if anything the Commission more closely represents a European Cabinet, with the President of the Commission gradually becoming more and more like a European Prime Minister. He is elected, or at least his selection is influenced, indirectly by the European Parliament and not directly by the European people. As for Ed? Well, where do I begin? Yes, I have read Monnet's declaration at The Hague Conference, I think it was. I am a Political Science student, you know. But if you look at the contemporary European current of thought, it seems that he's not getting what he's looking for - if anything, we're getting a very Anglo-Saxon Europe. The welfare state is being dismantled, working hours are increasing, retirement ages are increasing, the usage of English is increasing. If you ask a European of the age of about 17 or 18 where he or she wants to study at university, it will either be their own country or Britain. This is a good thing, at least for you lot, because you want to propagate British "values" across the world. And Britain will not lose its identity in a US of E, because it has no reason to. Just because a federal system of government is developed does not mean that national identities will disappear. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Utter Garbage | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 23:25:31 11/23/04 Tue - Because London was a natural financial centre, and it makes sense to situate one's European HQ there: but only if Britain is in the EU, because there's no point in having a regional headquarters that is outside the region. I grant you the fact that the Euro does not make that much difference in all of this, for it is trade that is the primary concern here. The EU has nothing to do with it. Regional Headquarters have nothing to do with political boundaries. Most American companies’ “European” headquarters also encompass the Middle East and Africa. - One single political institution? What about the U.S. government? Let me remind you that, for the first few decades, Presidents were not popularly elected and the Senate was appointed by the states. You are trying to compare a single political entity with a group of nations that has only achieved the unity attained thus far by deception and lies. Don’t make me laugh. You may not agree with the political decisions of the U.S. of A, but at least you can grant that (apart, of course, from that rather inconvenient electoral college nonsense) it is a democratic system. And one could further argue that, considering the fact that the Lords is an unelected house and that FPTP gives such enormous majorities, Britain's system is more like an electoral dictatorship. An electoral dictatorship maybe – but also one of the few countries in Europe, that has not had a REAL dictatorship in the last two generations. "I’m afraid they [Northern Europeans] already have [accepted being governed by corrupt bureaucrats]." The European Commission is corrupt, and as they are EU members, they are subject to a corrupt institution. Unelected commission? First of all, the commission is chosen by the member-states and not by itself. Chosen is not elected, remember? The fact that our Governments selects them is irrelevant. You would presumably argue that we elect our judges, using the same logic. The Government does not have the power to dismiss them. Therefore there is no accountability, and no democracy. The Parliament that you referred to also does not have the power to dismiss them individually. The can only sack the entire commission, and the commission are under no obligation to respect the wishes of the Parliament, and can nominate the exact same members, should they choose. As you can see, I have read up on it. Talking out of one's arse is generally not a good idea. You would know all about that! Puppet Parliament? Well, I thought that you wanted power for the member-states! I want power for our own Parliament. The Parliament has so few powers because national governments do not give it powers. Now, however, it is beginning to flex its muscle. I am not sure what your opinion is on whether this is a good thing, because your views confuse me. My views are clear, see above. European Arrest Warrants? Ah, yes, but issued by whom? The European Public Prosecutor. Who is responsible to whom? The member-states You mean the member states’ Governments, and if they object to their actions, they can do what exactly? Presidential Government? Utter crap. The new constitution will introduce a EU present, or have you not read it? In fact, if anything the Commission more closely represents a European Cabinet Except for the fact that they are not elected. with the President of the Commission gradually becoming more and more like a European Prime Minister. Except for the fact that they are not elected. He is elected, or at least his selection is influenced, indirectly by the European Parliament and not directly by the European people. Influenced? Please explain how a mature democracy operates on the notion of influence, and not accountability. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: To Mister So and So | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:25:38 11/23/04 Tue You have some very strange ideas about Europe. “And the reason for its continued success, despite Britain's non-membership of the Euro, is because the city has adopted the single currency de facto, if not de jure. Most of the transactions now taking place in Britain's financial markets are done in Euros.” Nonsense - London has been a trading capital long before the Euro was a glint in a Eurocrat’s eye. If Europe and its institutions are responsible for London’s success, why have the cities that have embraced Europe’s institutions more enthusiastically not been more successful? And companies situate themselves in Britain because Britain gives them an entry into the European market. If we pulled out of the EU, all that capital would leave. Joining EFTA? What a joke. Nonsense – Who is going to turn their back on the world’s forth largest economy because we wish to run our own affairs? I believe it's called cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Join EFTA - we don’t need to, we were already members. I believe that swapping restricted free-trade with one continent, to free-trade across the world with whom we please, is a good thing. ”So don't give me this anti-European nonsense” I’m afraid it’s not nonsense. It is fact, and we are indeed giving it to you. “As the EU gains more powers, it will become more democratic “ Oh my God, you don’t really believe that do you. Name a single political institution in the world that has gained more power, and somehow become more benign! Please. “Germans will not accept being governed by corrupt bureaucrats. Neither will the Austrians, nor the Dutch, nor the Scandinavians” I’m afraid they already have. “what you can't seem to understand is that Europe is not trying to take your nation away. If anything, the continent is becoming more British” Replacing a sovereign Parliament with an unelected Commission, a puppet Parliament, European arrest warrants, presidential Government and unrestricted expenses are NOT BRITISH TRAITS as far as I can tell. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Oh dear oh dear, more shouting back and forth across the barricades | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 02:20:10 11/24/04 Wed Can I appeal for a greater degree of general civility? [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Information | |
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Author: Paddy (Scotland) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 12:05:43 11/24/04 Wed The oil problems of the seventies did cause grief globally. However the socialists (who wanted out of the ECC at the time) spectacularly buggered up the economy. In 1979 the Tories inherited a country that had 28% inflation, that had rising unemployment, and that was producing subsidised antiques that nobody wanted to buy. The GDP per head was close to 50% of the contemporary levels of that of France. The U.K. was in near-critical decline, not even regarded as a European power let alone a world power. Under the circumstances it is not too surprising that the Crown dominions wished to cease being British subjects. Ordinary citizens in the 70s had to have their passport stamped to take even very small sums of money out of the country and were unable to buy their council house that they had lived in and considered to be their own. This Orwellian state severely restricted freedom for the ordinary man. Thatcher came in and changed all of this and put the U.K. back on the path to prosperity. The U.K. had been in the EEC since 1973 but prosperity came as a result of brave descisions by the Tories at Westminister, nearly a decade later. I would argue that Britain is where it is today because of Britain. Britain is presently richer that the EU average because we work longer hours and have (relative to the EU average) lower taxes. In the event of the UK opting out of the political side of the EU project, under WTO rules it would be illegal for the EU to impose punitive import levies etc... Also the UK has a massive trade deficit with the rest of the EU. Any trade war initiated on a non-EU UK would be akin to shooting yourself in the foot, especially so as the major economies of the EU are already half lame. With this unrestricted access to the EU markets the UK would be in a position of strength. If the government kept the UK competitive compared to the rest of Europe then in fact it is likely that many companies would actually choose to locate in the UK rather than in the EU. The above all holds true. The UK would certainly be better off outside the EU but with guaranteed free trade. The EU constitutional exit clause actually reduces the UK government controls over exiting the EU. Presently we can withdraw by repealing all acts at Westminister. Under the EU contitution we would hav to negotiate exit terms. Currently the rotten deal that we get over fishing rights is actually doing the EU a favour - we can repeal it any time. Post treaty the EU could say "of course you can leave but we will keep fishing rights in your waters". In the event of the UK separating from the EU (which of course could be done in a most friendly way), the natural direction to look is towards Australia, Canada and New Zealand, countries with whom we have the most in common. The trouble with political theory is that it is just theory. A great many political theorists like a theory so much that they are blinkered from the political realities. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I agree with what Ed said: the economy is not the whole story | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:34:59 11/24/04 Wed Both sides are putting forward economic arguments that may or may not prove to be correct in practice, but my reasons for wanting closer ties with Britain, Canada and New Zealand are not purely economic: these are simply the countries that I feel closest to. After all, you don't live with your family just because it's good for business. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Crikey, someone who agrees with me! | |
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Author: Ed Harris (Venezia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 14:23:22 11/24/04 Wed To quote a bloke with whom I ususally disagree: "Any nation that gives up its freedom for economic advantage deserves to lose both." The same could be said to apply to giving up a nation's friends. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: it's so easy to get sucked into "bottom line" arguments | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 14:38:18 11/24/04 Wed But I don't think we are really all capable of selling our grandmothers for a tax cut. We argue about economics because both sides feel the other will discredit them for being "impractical" if we don't. With that, we end up forgeting that these were not the reasons we started out with. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Well said | |
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Author: Ed Harris (Venezia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 14:52:54 11/24/04 Wed And it's futile anyway, because economics is more like politics than a science: two people can look at the same figures and come to different conclusions, just as two people can look at the same social problem and put forward different solutions. For once I think that Aristotle was dead wrong: politics and economics are not incompatible - they are broadly the same thing. Adam Smith knew. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Economics is more like alchemy than anything else... | |
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Author: Paddy (Scotland) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 09:44:50 11/25/04 Thu [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |