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Subject: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: Son of Eli [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 09:23:33 02/22/24 Thu I expect the remaining Ivy schools will quickly follow suit to avoid the continued devaluation of their academic reputations. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2024/02/22/yale-university-to-reinstate-standardized-test-requirement-for-admissions/?sh=3b8ceb613182 [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:48:50 02/22/24 Thu Congratulations to Dartmouth and Yale. Today is a great day. Universities are educational institutions. There is nothing wrong or insidious with testing for educational aptitude for entrance thereto. Admissions offices can still make adjustments and allowances in the name of social engineering, but the academy has now hit rock bottom and can begin the long journey back. Hallelujah. And shame on any Ivies which do not fall in line. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: Fear the Quaker [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:51:25 02/22/24 Thu I see nothing wrong with it, but I worry that the kid that excels in school and takes part in the community can be left out of the equation because they are not the best test taker. Diamonds are not always perfect. I also worry, about how you weed out the test score that is jacked up by test prep. No system is perfect and I understand that fact. I also see nothing wrong with schools leaning on in person interviews too. The schools should utilize this avenue too in my opinion to find well-rounded individuals. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:56:44 02/22/24 Thu While I think standardized testing is one method to measure future academic success in the Ivy League, there are lots of very smart kids who ace the SAT or ACT but do not have the work ethic and people skills to be successful outside of academia. I think it's imperative academic institutions evaluate applicants on a wide variety of skills and not just one test. We have a family member who is naturally very smart, aced his SAT's, and did very well at Princeton. But unfortunately he completely lacks hard work and has struggled for many years since graduation. The guy can't hold a job and screwed up his family, etc. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Rare bird! Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:14:57 02/22/24 Thu I had several classmates at Dartmouth who were so smart that they got excellent grades in high school without doing any real work. And then they got to Dartmouth and ran into trouble due to poor work habits because everyone else was brilliant, too. I can't think of anyone I knew at Dartmouth who did minimal work but still did "very well" grades-wise. Your family member is a rare bird... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: Spizz1976 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:17:43 02/22/24 Thu I conducted alumni interviews and headed up a regional alumni interviewing committee for several decades. My experience from interviewing hundreds of applicants is that there is a strong correlation between performance on the SAT/ACT and the intellectual spark and ability to organize and articulate thoughts demonstrated in the interviews. My experience is that the SAT/ACT correlation is even greater than that of GPAs. My theory is that the SAT/ACT is an effective measure of reading comprehension and inquisitiveness and helps identify and distinguish some kids that develop intellectual capability outside and beyond their teachers' more structured approach in the classroom. I applaud Dartmouth and Yale for reinstituting the test results as one of several metrics in selecting an academically-motivated class. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:34:57 02/22/24 Thu Interesting topic though. As someone who has worked in the financial sector for nearly my entire career, every year our company recruits some very smart students from all the Ivy League schools, but our number one problem is finding employees with good people skills and can work in a team environment. That's one area I think the Ivy League in general falls short and that's why I am not a big fan of standardized tests. Just my own experience though. On the other hand maybe in fields like computer programing, research, etc. people skills may not matter as much. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: Spizz1976 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:52:26 02/22/24 Thu While it is difficult to generalize, my interviewing experience was that the high SAT/ACT achievers tended to be the most interesting interviewees. I chalked that up to broader vocabularies and stronger abilities to organize and articulate thoughts. The high SAT/ACT achievers tended to demonstrate greater knowledge on non-academic subjects such as current events, arts, music, politics and books that they read outside of class. I view the SAT/ACT as an important metric, although only a single element in the broader mosaic. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:33:34 02/22/24 Thu I do think the ability of the applicant to submit alternatives to the SAT/ACT is to the good. The range of students and secondary schools is just too broad for those two to be optimal in every case. I can’t help but wonder if further alternative standardized test options might be called for. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: It Is A Small College, Yet There Are Those Who Love It Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:31:25 02/22/24 Thu My joy at Yale reinstating the SAT/ACT requirement is based upon two streams of rationale. (1) Selecting applicants who have the capacity to be excellent college students and then hopefully outstanding citizens is difficult. Overall, our batting average in the Ivy League is better than institutions who do not have our brand names, but still not great on an absolute level. RedWin's anecdote about a family member who graduated from Princeton but has spun his wheels since then is far from an outlier. Given the difficulty of the task of assembling an outstanding freshman class, why make it any more challenging by denying yourself use of additional data? That data is not perfect and, certainly, some kids have advantages in test prep and coaching that others do not. Well, let's try to control or adjust for that, instead of just saying that SAT scores are irrelevant. SAT scores are not perfect predictors of anything, just as GPA's are not perfect predictors of anything, or teacher recommendations, or interviews. But you gather all the information you can and make the best decision you can. Don't let an imperfect test be the enemy of making a better decision. (2) More importantly, not requiring the SAT is another symptom of the dumbing down of America. Not requiring any test of competency sends all the wrong signals to young people and the world at large. It says, "We are willingly and consciously taking a step back from being a meritocracy." I'm curious what Harvard and Princeton will do. Harvard of course is already sensitive to sending signals after President Gay was forced to resign and Princeton had already announced that it would be test-optional for the next three admission cycles. Requiring the SAT before 2027 would be a back-track for the folks in New Jersey. But not following Dartmouth's lead will look more and more indefensible as more colleges do as Yale has done. Dartmouth College has done a great service to American higher education and to our society. Thank you to the Big Green. You know that I was rooting for your football team all along. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Justin Watson Author: Bryan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:29:29 02/22/24 Thu Clearly the decisions by Dartmouth and Yale were not based primarily on athletics. But, if other Ivy schools do not follow this lead is it a small, medium or large recruiting detriment compared to other testing optional Ivy schools? (Or is it not a recruiting factor at all?) My first reaction is that it's a minor recruiting disadvantage as there is likely one recruit somewhere who has been admitted to an Ivy school in the last few years who wouldn't have been admitted if the SAT or other submission requirement had been in place. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Justin Watson Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:58:21 02/22/24 Thu The schools claim that not using SATs works to detriment of minority applicants. So to the extent such potential applicants might be athletic recruiting targets, one might argue that requiring SATs will even create some modest recruiting advantage. While I don't question the reason for raising the matter, IMO this is still a purely academic exercise not worth getting worked up over at the moment. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Now Brown has announced that they too will reinstate testing Author: Son of Eli [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:16:15 03/05/24 Tue https://www.browndailyherald.com/article/2024/03/brown-to-reinstate-standardized-testing-requirement-for-admission [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 (Modest Proposal) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:51:50 03/06/24 Wed What may be missing in this discussion is an acknowledgement the "requirement" was dropped. Thus, submitting standardized test scores was, and is, optional. I would bet, modestly of course, that the vast majority of truly competitive applicants, including athletes, took the preps and the various rounds of testing, and submitted their best scores. I don't suppose there are any figures in this regard but would be curious to see if some institutions are willing to release the data. Me thinks you gentle folk have gotten your undergarments twisted in a knot. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:22:29 03/07/24 Thu Again, as someone who has interviewed Ivy students many times over the years, I think part of the admissions process should be focusing on well-rounded students and not just students who can ace a standardized test. In reality, a significant number of the students we have interviewed, are simply not employable. Whether you work for Goldman Sachs or Google, you have to be able adapt to their culture and vision, meaning getting along with people and having strong teamwork skills. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: One Generation Looks Back on Another Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:41:19 03/08/24 Fri RW, if you are in the mood to favor us with more explication, I for one would like to hear more about your assertion that, "in reality, a significant number of the students we have interviewed are simply not employable." I am well aware there have probably been few generations who did not think that the one behind them could use some bucking up. Classic "get off my lawn." But I am shocked at where the children of my friends are at this stage in life. I'd say about a third of them are living at home, unemployed or underemployed, trying to find themselves. This during the strongest labor market in the past quarter-century. It's not universal and our generation wasn't perfect, by any means. But the percent of my class which graduated from college and then kind of spun their wheels was low, maybe 5%. The current cohort between the age of 22 and 27 seems to be around 30-40%. Part of this is that the real cost of housing has gone way up in the past two generations. But it's not just that they're living at home with Mom and Dad, it's that they are like Benjamin in "The Graduate," aimless and unmotivated. Speaking of inter-generational comparisons. . . . Is this my imagination or my looming senior years talking? Sometimes I think that growing up in a time of affluence and comfort can be a real handicap. If you've never known discomfort, what makes you go? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Dartmouth Commended on Real Time with Bill Maher Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 02:06:20 03/09/24 Sat HBO comedian/political commentator Bill Maher on his show tonight cited Dartmouth (seriously, though he called it "Dartmouth University") for reinstating the SAT requirement. Maher said, "By bringing back the SAT, Dartmouth made a clear and brave statement. It's not racist to test if high school kids know s--t. But if you're stupid, don't panic. Harvard, Stanford and Princeton are still test optional. Yes, it's a great time to be a dumbass. But not at Dartmouth." I'm curious what Harvard and Princeton will do. On this topic, critical mass might apply. Once a tipping point is reached in terms of schools reinstating the SAT requirement, what once was a statement about test inequality will become a statement about the dumbing down of our greatest national universities. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth Commended on Real Time with Bill Maher Author: SpuytenDuyvil76 (veritas) [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:56:18 03/09/24 Sat Apropos of my earlier comment, I'm genuinely curious to know, did it ever really go away? Or is it window dressing? I'm saying the vast majority don't take a chance with the "optional" nonsense and get the scores in. They are taking the tests for their other schools... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth Commended on Real Time with Bill Maher Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:38:25 03/09/24 Sat Spuyten, I agree with your point. Just because the test score is optional does not mean the admissions offices ignore its absence in the application. One of my closest friends just went through this with his child, who was an extraordinary candidate in many respects, but had always been a very poor test taker. They made the calculated gamble not to take the SAT at all, hoping that a 4.3 GPA and tremendous extracurricular activities plus status as a legacy would be enough to carry the day. Wait list at Harvard is as close as they got to the Ivy League. If they read the press release from Dartmouth, it might have broken their hearts because their situation is exactly what Dartmouth said could have been helped with even a mediocre SAT score. So you're right. The impact of the SAT was not eliminated. That just goes to show how much of making it "optional" was, as the kids say today, performative. Just virtue signaling by the admissions office. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth Commended on Real Time with Bill Maher Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:43:18 03/09/24 Sat While Duyvil’s comment is very much to the point and well taken, AO might also consider that HPS, being utterly awash in gold star applications, might have hit upon a way to reduce it a bit by eliminating the prigs who feel the schools “must” demand test scores. The complexity of these admission offices is such that the absence of any one or two data points on a resume will almost never change a decision. Why do all the critics assume they’ve learned nothing over a century, and that somehow this is a meritocracy, which it’s not? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Yale joins Dartmouth in restoring admissions Testing Requirement Author: M3 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:26:01 03/09/24 Sat The other thing to remember here is the "kiss of admissions death combo" Great SAT's plus mediocre grades suggests lack of academic rigor/discipline Back in the 70's this was not a profile you wanted. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Taking a Step Back Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:45:30 03/09/24 Sat A first rate detailed set of scenarios, with numbers, regarding approaches to admission from the NYT today. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare [ Post a Reply to This Message ]