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Subject: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: Green Review [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 19:12:53 03/19/24 Tue We realize DEI or affirmative action are no longer accepted entities in NCAA sports. However, there is no doubt exclusionary practices continue in the Ivy League. Both the Dartmouth and Harvard ski team rosters look like something out of the 1950's with virtually zero diversity. The recent Dartmouth coach job posting the term "diversity" was actually mentioned. On top of that, many of these so called "student-athletes" are from ski academies that cost $75K plus and they are not exactly academically oriented schools. For example, one of these rich kids schools, Burke Mountain Academy just north of Hanover doesn't even post grades and has zero advanced placement courses. Just passing this on, because it's obvious these teams do not adhere to Ivy League standards. Thank goodness for Ivy League football and basketball! https://gocrimson.com/sports/alpine-skiing/roster https://dartmouthsports.com/sports/alpine-skiing/roster [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: Hanover Plain [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:36:25 03/19/24 Tue I am so glad that you have been able to review all of these kids’ admissions and financial aid folders. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I would put the skiers’ academic qualifications up against any Ivy football or basketball team. And many of these kids are competing at the World Cup and Olympic level in their sport. Recruited skiers are subject to the same minimum AI standards as any other Ivy athlete. Cannot disagree with your diversity comment, but should every single program at the schools be forced to either be diverse or not be supported? Obviously the recruiting pool for highly talented ski racers is not very diverse. I have a son who played football at Dartmouth and have also been highly involved with the ski program. There is not a kid on either squad I have met who I am not immensely proud of and is not highly qualified to be in Hanover. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: Green Valley [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:41:09 03/19/24 Tue Green Review, I am still not sure if your post was serious or clever parody/The Onion submission. Please advise. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:33:35 03/20/24 Wed Not my area, but I think the point of this post, if parents are spending $75K per year for their kid's ski school, they probably have their priorities mixed up and is this an unfair advantage? We are seeing similar programs like IMG Academy in Florida where one of the parents in our area is sending his son to play football, who was not even starting for our local team. The cost of that program is around $80K per year. Is it fair for wealthy parents to buy their kid a spot on a college sports team? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Fairness Author: Greg [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:11:44 03/20/24 Wed Is it fair for an athletic parent to (a) find an athletic partner to marry; (b) conceive a naturally gifted child in terms of hand-eye coordination/strength/endurance; and (c) coach that child from an early age, developing in him or her skill, muscle memory and a feel for the game? Is this fair? If it sounds like I am not serious, that is not my intent. I am quite serious. Most parents will try to give their children every advantage they can. Two brilliant parents will often produce a brilliant child. Two very athletic parents will often produce a very athletic child. These children will have a huge advantage applying to college. Is this fair? Now suppose that these brilliant, athletic parents also are wealthy and can afford all the lessons, travel and equipment costs it now takes to compete at the highest level of high school sports. Is this fair? I’m guessing that, so far, you are responding that everything in my list is fair. There is nothing inherently wrong with smart, athletic parents coaching, training and driving to AAU games and staying in hotels to further the probability that their child is desirable to colleges. Maybe these smart, athletic parents can send their child to an exclusive boarding school for an excellent education that other parents either can’t afford or simply don’t want for their child. Is this fair? You probably think that this is fair, too. Now what if the parents in question are not smart or athletic, but only wealthy. Should they not do everything they can for their child? I am completely serious. Why is acceptable for smart, athletic parents to coach and support their gifted child, but not acceptable for the merely wealthy parents to do exactly the same thing? Now think about how you would answer these questions depending upon the race of the child in question. Is that fair? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:37:43 03/20/24 Wed If a kid cannot start on his local HS team, it's hard to see how he could suddenly impress college coaches enough to be given a college sports admission/scholarship based solely on the IMG name. The IMG name alone isn't going to cause a knowledgeable college recruiter, whose job depends on identifying talent, to unsee whatever deficiencies exist. Perhaps IMG has the facilities and personnel to "coach up" a player enough to address clear deficiencies, but is this any different than sending a kid to a local camp, private coach clinic, or just hiring a prviate coach? We can disagree on the choice of priorities, but parents have been sending (or transferring) their kids to HS perceived to offer coaching advantages for a long time. As noted above this the same approach as for academic improvement. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:40:52 03/20/24 Wed Greg............I think you're over thinking this subject. The point of the original post is there is no diversity in skiing at Dartmouth and Harvard due to the exclusivity of this sport. I thought the entire premise of the Ivy League is admission based on financial need with academic and athletic excellence. Even in sports like tennis and golf we are finally seeing more diversity. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: More Questions About Fairness Author: Greg [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:46:38 03/20/24 Wed RedWin, I think that you are trying in good faith to make a point you hold in good faith. I hope that I can do the same. I have three questions for all posters here: (a) Is the lack of African American and Latino skiers on the Dartmouth and Harvard ski teams a problem which needs to be rectified? Is this something that reflects poorly on our society? Suppose I accept that the lack of African American and Latino skiers on the Dartmouth and Harvard ski teams is a result of income disparities in our country. Does putting more African American and Latino skiers on the team actually solve or improve anything? Or does it just make us, the alumni, feel good when the team photo has some faces of color? (2) Suppose we fix the income disparities which create the ski team problem. What should we do about the lack of diversity on the swim team? That will be more difficult to fix, no? (3) Is a wealthy parent doing something for his or her child to be criticized or prohibited when we would applaud a low income parent for doing the exact same thing? What about if the wealthy parent were African American but the poor parent were white? How does that change the calculus? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: More Questions About Fairness Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:27:36 03/20/24 Wed Regardless I think it's shameful when these so called sports academies purposely exclude young athletes whether they are white or a minority. Anyone who spends $75K for their kid to play sports in high school or even earlier is not too smart. Participation in college athletics should be about talent and hard work, not buying a spot for your kid on a college roster. See below. About 70 % of kids drop out of organized sports by age 13 and the so-called “professionalization of youth sports” can't be understated as a significant factor why, according to a new report released Monday by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).Jan 22, 2024 [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Still More Fairness Issues Author: Greg [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:05:26 03/20/24 Wed RedWin, I think there are four separate issues in the initial post by Green Review and your response: (a) GR decries the lack of ethnic diversity on the Dartmouth and Harvard ski teams. My initial response titled "Fairness" was addressed mostly to him and tangentially to your response. (b) You don't like the idea of parents spending $75,000 per year and think the parents have their priorities wrong. I certainly would not disagree with that! On the other hand, if that's what they want to spend their hard-earned money on, who are we to criticize them? Some people buy liquor or lottery tickets. Others send their non-athletic children to sports academies for $75,000 a year. At least the parents get their children out of the house. Maybe that's the objective here, as it traditionally was for many British parents sending their progeny to boarding school My point is that people should be allowed to waste their money on whatever they choose. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As sparman pointed out, the chances that IMG can turn a kid who couldn't start for his local high school team into a college recruit is low. And if IMG can in fact do that, they should be charging a lot more than $75 large for tuition. (c) Your post immediately above is particularly confusing. "Sports academies purposely excluding young athletes whether they are white or minority"? What? Who's doing what? (d) Kids dropping out of sports because they're too professionalized? I agree with you that this is a shame. Sports should encourage participation for all the life lessons sports provide. But regrettably, that ship has long sailed. And why is that? Because of all the gifted athletes who marry other gifted athletes and produce offspring who are gifted athletes. As I said above, is this fair? What problems in our society should we attempt to fix or ameliorate, and what problems are only problems because we convince ourselves that they are problems? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: More Questions About Fairness Author: RedWin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:12:53 03/20/24 Wed Greg........I am not an expert on this stuff. I was just a lowly walk-on O-lineman at Cornell. However, I do think the Dartmouth and Harvard Ski Teams could work a little harder to attract and retain student-athletes of color into their programs. I know the late Buddy Teevens at Dartmouth wouldn't have it any other way. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: More Questions About Fairness Author: Greg [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:34:34 03/20/24 Wed Should Division I basketball teams be encouraged to recruit more Asian players? In our conference, we have three superstars and one budding possible superstar, but statistically, they are crazy outliers. Asian athletes, relative to their proportion of the overall population, essentially do not exist on Division I rosters. Do you support Division I basketball teams having more Asian players? Don't you see what a slippery slope this is? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Dartmouth & Harvard Ski Teams lack of diversity Author: Uptown [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:47:12 03/21/24 Thu Of course, then, there is the nba. Not very diverse. Does that also need to be rectified? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]