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Subject: Football is different Author: Go Green [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 06:55:55 10/14/25 Tue In reply to: An Observer 's message, "Re: And I'm sure the Princeton offensive linemen loved him for it" on 22:25:05 10/13/25 Mon Football doesn't work the way you think it does. You can explain the logic all you want. But if other people/teams are calling you chicken---, it's hard to overcome that. Fifty years after the Notre Dame-MSU game, Jenkins was still calling Notre Dame "chickens---." https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17550816/notre-dame-fighting-irish-michigan-state-spartans-play-fifty-years-game-century You can argue that Parseghian did fine after 1996. But Pat Dye and Steve Toches weren't the same after they played for their ties. I have no doubt that Lyons, Murphy, Bagnoli, Estes, Sidlecki, et al. were too polite to criticize Tosches in public. But what do you think they said (or their assistants said) to recruits in private? "Hey All-State Lineman, when the game is on the line do you want to go for it? Or do you want to kick a field goal?" Again, look at Tosches' record after 1995. Even assuming for the sake of argument that playing for the tie in 1995 was the "correct" decision, it was totally a Pyrrhic victory for the Tigers. Again, worst case scenario- Princeton ends up co-champions if they go for it and miss. But like Tom Osborne, they can say that they run a "go for it all" program. And that matters to high school kids. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wish this Board had an edit feature.... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:41:33 10/14/25 Tue ... did fine after 1966,

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Wish this Board had an edit feature.... Author: Ditka [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:17:33 10/14/25 Tue I see what you did there, slipping in reference to trying to “date” a beautiful woman. Whether she was wearing an orange dress or is a certain gymnast heading back to LSU, I understand the analogy to Tosches. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/celebrity/articles/livvy-dunne-steals-spotlight-sporting-182330484.html

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Football Is Not That Different at All and That's Why We Love It Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:57:21 10/14/25 Tue I interpret your response immediately above to read, "No, I have not once in my professional life made a decision regarding risk and reward of the type for which I am excoriating Steve Tosches." Not once. Football is not as different as you think. One of the reasons that we love sports is because it can be a microcosm of parallel situations in other spheres of our lives, but sports plays out in public and in two- or three-hour mini-dramas. Sure, football coaches recruit against each other by challenging each other's masculinity, talent or other personal aspects. You don't think that happens at top tier law firms? Big Wall Street law firms competing for the best talent out of Yale and Stanford? You don't think that happens when a three-man law firm in El Paso or Albuquerque is trying to attract a prized recruit from joining a competing three-man firm in town? What about Goldman Sachs recruiting against Morgan Stanley? KKR and Apollo? KKR famously knowingly overpaid for RJR Nabisco simply to defend their franchise as the buyout firm with the biggest appetite for risk. They closed on a bad deal (for $25 billion, a record at the time) because they wanted to show everybody they still had the biggest balls in the business. There are examples of bravado, specifically male bravado, driving decision-making all around us. Sales and trading, investment banking, corporate law, insurance underwriting, indeed any industry where any participant risks capital or reputation in hopes of a profitable return, which is basically all of them. Outside of business or finance, the same phenomenon exists everywhere. Politics? In case you haven't noticed, American foreign policy is now being conducted this way. Away from the headlines, this goes on everytime some guy steels his nerve and goes to chat up a woman more beautiful than he has any logical expectation of dating. In part, he's trying to show his buddies and himself that he's got what it takes. So I'll ask you again. In any sphere of your life, have you ever made a decision of the type that you expect from Steve Tosches?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I think your premise is flawed for several reasons, but... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:12:47 10/14/25 Tue If you're asking me if I ever took the coward's way out to end up with essentially the same result, the only thing that's coming to mind is my decision to go to law school rather than try to make it as a screenwriter in Hollywood. I took a screenwriting class at Dartmouth for fun. I absolutely loved it. Far and away my favorite class. But I was too chicken to commit to it as a career and opted for the "safer" career. I had two frat brothers who tried the Hollywood thing. One had limited success, the other pulled the plug after four years or so. I've enjoyed the law, but every Academy Awards show I watch, I can't help but wonder "what if...?" Mrs. Go Green had classmates who indeed gave Hollywood a try and they had tremendous success (including winning Oscars). But back to Tosches, you seem to be thinking that there's some financial benefit to him and/or his staff for winning an outright title. While I've seen stories about some big time college coaches having incentives in their contracts for winning X games, or making X bowl, or finishing X or higher in the rankings, I've never heard of anything comparable for the Ivy coaches. Did Tosches and/or his staff get an extra $20K (or whatever) for getting an "outright" title? If so, that's total news to me...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Each of Us Will Have to Live with Our Decisions Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:39:06 10/14/25 Tue You have read my last two posts exactly wrong. Read them again. I didn't ask if you ever chose the chicken's way out. I asked if you ever chose THE HERO's way out. I asked if you have ever lived up to the standard that you impose on Tosches. And your answer, so far, is that you too chose the chicken's way out. You loved screenwriting and could have at least given it a try, a few years to see if you could get some traction. If you failed in Hollywood, you could have always fallen back to Plan B for a legal path which, though safe and remunerative, is nobody's idea of a thrilling life, often not even an interesting career. How can you criticize Tosches for taking the safer road of a field goal attempt for the outcome of an outright Ivy League title? He declined a chance for Osborne-like hero status, but his players today wear the gold rings you say Princeton players receive for winning a sole championship. Meanwhile, what have you declined? A chance to pursue the career and life of your dreams. For what? A steady paycheck. You have got to stop holding Steve Tosches to a standard that you yourself have failed. Look in the mirror. Ask yourself whether the reason you are so critical of Tosches' decision-making is that you see in it your own risk aversion and that eats at you.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I've taken risks, if that's what you're asking Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:30:17 10/14/25 Tue I've taken on cases that others thought were were dead losers. Most of the time, the others were right. But I won a few of them! I was on my firms' hiring committee for a while. I can't recall going head to head with other firms--even though I'm sure we were in competition with other firms for a few hotshot law students. I'll reiterate my earlier assertion that your premise is flawed in several respects--of which is that football is just different from other parts of life. If Lyons had done what Tosches did, I would have been unhappy with him as well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: On Manliness and Honor Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:56:20 10/15/25 Wed For a knowledge professional whose career depends upon consuming and understanding complex documents, your reading comprehension skills are poor. (1) I did not ask you for an example where you were a coward or a chicken -- on the contrary, though I appreciate your offering the example where you declined to chase your dreams in Hollywood for the safer and more boring path of corporate law. (2) I did not ask you for an example where you simply took a risk. Again, I appreciate your story of accepting and pursuing cases other lawyers declined but, frankly, that's not taking a risk as much as it is picking up crumbs others did not want. (3) I specifically asked you, again and again and again, for an example where you chose the path of "manly honor" in pursuing a goal the hard way when an easier option existed. I don't know why you can't understand my request. You have criticized Steve Tosches on this message board for the two decades it has existed. And yet you yourself cannot offer a single snippet where you lived up to your own standard. GG, you're a fraud. You criticize another man for not taking the riskier, tougher path in the name of manliness, or honor, or sportsmanship, but you yourself have no examples of ever doing so either. Your protestation that football is different from any other pursuit in life is bulls--t and you should know it. We love sports because they reflect life, not because they are separate and distinct from life. Teddy Roosevelt profoundly told us that the credit belongs not to the critic, but to the man in the arena. Steve Tosches was the man in the arena in 1995 and he made his choice. As a result, his players were outright Ivy League champions. You are only a critic, not the man in the arena. That you once played football for Dartmouth is irrelevant. You have not once in your life stepped up and made the type of choice you demand of Tosches. Don't criticize Steve Tosches when you have done nothing in your life to earn the credibility to do so. You have not earned that honor.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: If you’re putting me in the same company as Dan Jenkins Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:48:25 10/15/25 Wed I’ll happily take it! :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Indeed… Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:12:36 10/15/25 Wed Notre Dame students collected and burned the sports illustrated issue that had Jenkins’ column crucifying the Irish after the 1966 game. I get called a fraud. I stand with Jenkins.