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Date Posted: 20:30:01 05/30/08 Fri
Author: anyasbuttmonkey
Subject: I think what we're all forgetting, though...
In reply to: Esmerelda 's message, "I dont think it works that way" on 18:16:29 05/30/08 Fri

Is that while Caprica may be treated like a prisoner, she's not actually a Prisoner of War - she handed herself over to the Colonials, she's put her lot in with them; Caprica Six has defected. It's a similar situation to when Athena first showed up in the fleet in season 2.

But, if we go down the route of her being a Prisoner of War, nothing in the Geneva Convention (as reliable as Wikipedia can be about it, anyway) expressly forbids sexual relations with a PoW. Physical and mental abuse, for sure, but I don't think the Saul/Caprica situation can be called "torture" by any stretch of the word. It's a consensual relationship, however icky or wierd. Remember, Helo and Athena were in the same situation way back when and nobody batted an eyelid (on this side of the TV screen, anyway).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think what we're all forgetting, though... -- Esmerelda, 21:48:43 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I can't imagine that if it was revealed tomorrow high ranking British soldiers were having sex with Iraqi prisoners, there wouldn't, and rightly, be a shit storm over it. The fact Caprica wasn't actually caught does not stop her from being a prisoner or war, she's an enemy combatant, in the brig. She hasn't given her alliegence to the humans the way Athena did, making her essentially a citizen in the human fleet. IMO BTW I'd argue Athena was also a prisoner of war until the beggining of season 3, as she was a former enemy combatant in the brig. The difference between Athena and Helo is they had a pre-established relationship and every visit we saw was supervised.

It's just....it's wrong, it's an abuse of power and while we're watching a tv show that shows us what's really going on the characters aren't, and the fact Adama just handwaves it, bothers me, a lot.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think in terms of the press, then yeah, a shit storm would be appropriate... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 01:22:16 05/31/08 Sat [1]

But I still say that Caprica isn't a PoW, she's a defected agent, and as such the rules of conduct change. Here's the definition of a PoW from the Geneva Convention:

Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:

* 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
* 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
o that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
o that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
o that of carrying arms openly;
o that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
* 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
* 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
* 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
* 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
* 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.


To me, none of that applies to Caprica Six - she willingly entered Colonial "territory" (the Fleet) with the express purpose of handing herself over. She was not captured, she is not a Cylon agent anymore (in that she isn't actively working to engage the Colonials in combat - biologically, she'll always a be a Cylon!) - she is now on "our" side.

As to how this applies to Adama's handling of it all... if he punishes Tigh for forming a relationship with Caprica, he looks like the worst kind of leader - a hypocrite - for not doing the same with Helo. Because when it comes down to it, no matter how Helo came to be with Athena, he and Tigh are both "guilty" (and I use that term extremely loosely, because I don't think either of them have done anything morally abhorrent) of the same sin - impregnating an enemy agent who has defected to their side. The only difference between Athena and Caprica is the Galactica's treatment of them. Adama just hasn't used Caprica for information the same way he used Sharon, and on the rare occasions he has she has been more than forthcoming.

Also, I think what Adama is taking away from this is that Tigh's situation, while extremely grey-area, does not put anyone in harm's way - but his love for Laura could bring down the whole Fleet.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I kind of agree with Esmerelda -- Chani, 10:18:11 06/01/08 Sun [1]

It is a problem. We know that Saul was seeing Ellen, and we know that Caprica has been made, designed, to seduce males; we also saw her first punching Tigh and then kissing him so the sex must have been consensual, she may even have initiated it, and Tigh may be the most vulnerable one actually but she was still a prisoner and the simple fact that Tigh were supposed to question her but turned the camera off points out he committed something reprehensible. He lied and crossed a line with a prisoner.

I don't think we can compare Tigh to Helo at all because it isn't about forming a relationship with a Cylon, it's about taking advantage of one's position that is a position of power. And it isn't about being in a time war either. Were Saul a cop or a prison warder it would be the same. Remember the prison warder in Oz who fucked Ryan O'Reilly ?

Helo and Athena got together on Caprica, they were already a couple, and Hera wasn't conceived when she was in the brick but a long time before that and as Helo didn't even know she was a Cylon. Helo may be guilty for falling in love with a Cylon and still loving Sharon as she was in the brick and finally marrying her, but he didn't use his position to visit a Cylon pretending to do his job while he was actually screwing her as she was kept within the walls of a prison.

Having said that, we don't know what Caprica told Cottle or Adama, but I bet that they both knew it wasn't a rape. Bill has always been very indulgent when it comes to Saul's weaknesses and mistakes so I am not surprised that after he expressed his anger he finally didn't punish him. It's totaly in character.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You see, my approach to it is that Caprica, in the strictest sense of the word, isn't a prisoner... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 17:00:00 06/01/08 Sun [1]

Which is where our thoughts diverge :) I think it's one of those "agree to disagree" situations, but that's why I love this show!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You see, my approach to it is that Caprica, in the strictest sense of the word, isn't a prisoner... -- Esmerelda, 16:51:01 06/02/08 Mon [1]

See, as long as she's in the brig, IMO, she's a prisoner, cause she's you know, in the brig, under lock and key.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Mmmmm.... -- Chani, 18:15:09 06/02/08 Mon [1]

She chose to be there but she's a prisoner still. Just liek Faith was a prisoner when she was in jail in L.A...

You're wrong my little cousin, don't fight! ;- )


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