I've always known that Helo was a central character! -- The Quorum Of Twelve

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[> [> [> Caprica's becoming human... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 13:58:49 08/20/07 Mon [1]

Which means she'll die :( *bursts into tears*

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[> [> [> [> Possibly -- Athena aka Chani, 14:50:51 08/20/07 Mon [1]

But not before the end hopefully!

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[> [> [> [> [> Oh no, it'll be in the finale... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 16:49:02 08/20/07 Mon [1]

But, I mean, her entire arc on the show has been about her journey to become human - and one of the defining characteristic differences between Cylon and Human is our mortality. I'm thinking both she and Baltar will bite the big one by the end of 4x20 (Baltar is obviously playing the Spike/redemptive role in this grand show-long arc).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Oh no, it'll be in the finale... -- sparkle, 18:56:12 08/20/07 Mon [1]

I don't know that I want Baltar to be redeemed. I'm not sure why, but I just feel like karma needs to come into play with him. Maybe I'm wrong. I hate to end the the Caprica character, but if it happens, I hope it's the finale. I'm frankly a little afraid of who the final Cylon will be. I don't think any of them will be less than shocking.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I remember a half-joking theory myself and Esmerelda came up with... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 19:42:15 08/20/07 Mon [1]

That it would turn out to be Tom Zarek, and that he was the "leader" of the Final Five. They had decided to reintegrate themselves into humanity, destroying all other copies of their models, and repress their Cylon memories. But Zarek would've been in charge of doing all that, and once he'd sent the other four on their way, he kept his models around and all his memories, and has been operating as such since.

We mainly thought it would be funny to see Zarek walk into his quarters and start talking to people - only for the camera to show us he was talking to several copies of himself!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I remember a half-joking theory myself and Esmerelda came up with... -- Athena aka Chani, 19:54:09 08/20/07 Mon [1]

I may be wrong but I assumed that the Final Five didn't have copies at all, unlike the other models. It isn't even sure that they could download if killed. I think they are already...finite.

Perhaps it's the Cylons' fate to become like those five indeed, and there will be only one copy of each model eventually. Caprica must be the Ultimate Six then...but who will be the last Eight, Boomer or Athena ?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Well, in my opinion... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:27:46 08/20/07 Mon [1]

It would be Athena, because Boomer's storyline is the classic tragedy ("The Tragedy Of Boomer" has such a nice ring to it, don't you think?), and Athena's storyline was initially highlighting everything Boomer *couldn't* have - achieving humanity while Boomer gets boxed would be the final slap in the face. And, also, would make Boomer's storyline the most heartbreakingly tragic storyline of ANY tv show ever!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree -- Athena aka Chani, 08:21:23 08/21/07 Tue [1]

Yet it seems a bit too obvioius...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Mmm.... -- Athena aka Chani, 20:17:13 08/20/07 Mon [1]

I don't think that Baltar is playing Spike's role at all, if any character had such a storyline on BSG it would be Sharon Agathon...or Caprica.

Baltar is not a romantic character and I like him being just that weak little man who has his moments for sure but can still make the worst mistakes. His storyline is made on sucess and fall, not on a redemption from evil.

Still he may play a key role eventually. Baltar may even end up like Smeagol in "The Return of The King" actually, and save humanity a bit like the way he doomed it in the miniseries, that is despite himself!

I'm eager to see what they are going to do with him now that his followers/worshippers have "abducted" him. From Genius to President...from President to Prisoner...from Prisoner to...Messiah and God perhaps?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Only perhaps? -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:31:05 08/20/07 Mon [1]

I didn't think they were being subtle with the Jesus Christ imagery in the finale!

I think Baltar will save humanity somehow - but no-one will know it was him, and he'll die doing it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It wasn't only in the finale -- Chani dropping Athena for it's too long to type, 08:26:27 08/21/07 Tue [1]

Baltar sported a Jesus-look during most of season 3, and he went through a true Passion, first when tortured by D'Anna on the baseship then when he was on the Galactica. And Gaeta played Judas!

But Baltar is a fake Christ just like he was a fake President.

Poor Caprica...

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[> [> [> nah, I just thought it as I looked at this board -- Esmerelda, 23:37:27 08/20/07 Mon [1]

but yea, imagine the awesomeness of Tigh realising cause of him, his beloved Bill married a cylon, and has a half cylon kid, and really, said half cylon kid might be dangerous and someone should really tell Bill, but how to do that without saying, 'Caroline was a a cylon, I know cause Im one too, and also, it was me who lost your lucky socks, since we're laying it all on the table.'

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[> [> [> [> You just *know* Bill would focus on the socks! -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:51:05 08/20/07 Mon [1]

He would totally go all silent and introspective, before asking Tigh to reaffirm the "socks comment", and then Tigh bugging out because Bill's avoiding, but Bill isn't willing to hear it "because it's far too outlandish and besides, if its true, my psuedogirlfriend will have to airlock you and then the fleet will go to hell and Lee will have a bitchfit because he's half Cylon and Gods Know the kid whines enough as it is."

:)

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[> [> [> [> [> but if he ignores it -- Esmerelda, 23:58:30 08/20/07 Mon [1]

How can he and Helo go on the human-cylon hybrid solidarity marches togehter with their matching 'I love my half-Cylon kid!' t-shirts, which is the *whole* point of Caroline Adama being a cylon! ;)

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[> [> [> [> I think there are already -- Chani, 08:32:34 08/21/07 Tue [1]

too many half-Cylon children on that show!

If Lee and his brother were already half-Cylons it would devalue Hera's storyline as the first hybrid being born.

I like the idea of Zarek being the Final One though.

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[> [> [> [> [> I dont think either of us really think it'll happen -- Esmerelda, 09:49:20 08/21/07 Tue [1]

Its just an idea we like playing with. :)

I wouldnt mind Hera turning out not as important as everyone thought though, cause while Hera is adorable, with an adult being a half cylon, they'd have a more active role, while Hera, cuta as a button as she is, doesnt actually do anything.

It'd also take the pressure of the Agathon family, they could just live quitely and I think they'd like that.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Speak for yourself! -- anyasbuttmonkey, 13:12:54 08/21/07 Tue [1]

If Caroline was a Final Fiver, then yeah, Lee would be half-Cylon, but he would be a different kind-of "half-Cylon" to Hera. Also, it wouldn't devalue Hera's original specialness, as the Super Seven still would look at Hera as the first half-Cylon child of their type.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Speak for yourself! -- Esmerelda, 19:23:15 08/21/07 Tue [1]

I dont think they'd *really* be different, physically, I doubt there's any difference between the five and the seven, he'd only be different in regards to the fact the seven have no idea he exists.

Although I also like the idea, that Adama's known all along...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I don't think they'd be different either -- Chani, 19:53:16 08/21/07 Tue [1]

The final Five are Cylons just like the first Seven, apart from the fact that they don't seem to have copies so they are individuals, they aren't connected to other replica of a certain model.

Of course the other Cylons seem to have develop some kind of individuality too, despite that connexion.
It's has always been quite mysterious btw, if you think of the Sharons. Athena said she had always known what she was but she could remember Boomer's experience as a young pilot, but the connexion seemed to be broken after Boomer's awakening as a Cylon. It's intriguing and paradoxical...Sharon the Cylon felt like she was Boomer as long as Boomer believed she was human, until Boomer "became" a Cylon and shot Adama, then Sharon was only Athena. It is as if she stole Boomer's humanity in a way, learning to be human from her memories and then taking her place in the human society.

Boomer is definitely such a tragic character.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ive always assumed -- Esmerelda *oh and mild spoiler for season 4 minisodes*, 21:04:52 08/21/07 Tue [1]

that the cyclons used the 'download' technology to put Boomer's memories (which they must have been able to recieve somehow) into a new 8 model, so at that point, she *was* effectively Boomer, but once she was out of the box so to speak, she developed her own identity. Its an interesting nature/nurture thing.

To get back to the final five cylons and the Caroline Adama thing (kinda), the minisodes of Adama as a young hot shot viper pilot that are going to air in the run up to Razor apparently (and dont hold me to this, as I think I read it second hand) show him uncovering a weapon that'll have a major impact, which makes me suspect that final cylon is Lee full stop, mainly as he's the one character conventional wisdom says we should be able to rule out entirely, as he has someone to vouch from him from birth, which makes me think it totally must be him then, and Adama found him as a baby/toddeler.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Interesting -- Chani, 15:16:03 08/22/07 Wed [1]

Lee could fit in indeed, especially after his speech at the trial.

I'd rather have Lee being one of the Five than half-Cylon.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Ron Moore has said in interviews... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 22:23:38 08/21/07 Tue [1]

That the revelation of who the Final Five (well, for of them anyway) are will lead into the Cylon storyline for season 4 - what does it mean, to be a Cylon? He also stated that the Final Five are fundamentally different from the Super Seven - to me, that's more than just being the sole copies of their models.

Aaron Douglas went one further, and - this I don't believe 100% but it's definitely interesting - said that the Final Five aren't so much "robots with multiple copies" as opposed to "immortal", and that the Final Five tie into the "all this has happened before, and will happen again" motif of the show. Again, whether that's part-conjecture or extrapolation, obviously he's getting that idea from somewhere... I think we'll be in for a few mindfraks next season!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Which would make Kara... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 21:37:09 08/21/07 Tue [1]

Your basic Cylon frakker then? No better than Helo ;)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nobody is better than Helo ! -- Chani, 15:17:25 08/22/07 Wed [1]

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[> [> [> I would look to the past for answers -- Rmartin, 22:18:47 08/22/07 Wed [1]

By the past, I mean the original series. I remember watching the first ep of the orginal. It was the first TV show to ever spend a million dollars for an episode. I had a hard time getting past Lorne Green "Bananza" as Adama, but a scifi fan back then had little choice in primetime TV. So I watched them all as friends and family laughed at me, and I laughed along because many eps were cringe worthy.

I also remember all the orginal eps. Not having watched them in twenty years, I would bet I could mouth the dialogue if the sound was muted. Many of the plotlines of the old have been seen in the new. Fuel issues, food shortages, pilots left behind, a second battlestar, abandonment of the battlestar for a planet which becomes a cylon trap, and cylons turning over Baltar just to name a few.

One thing we haven't seen is the beings of light. I suspect Starbuck is not dead, and has had contact with these beings. In the orginal, these beings said they were once like humans, but had evolved beyond life and death. One of their commandments was not to interfer. One of them did, and he payed the price. It was also reveled that his voice was that of the orginal cylon.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think there will a melding of human and cylon with the help of these beings of light.

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[> [> [> [> Re: I would look to the past for answers -- Chani, 10:29:03 08/23/07 Thu [1]

I don't know...the first series was very religious and manichaean (I remember John Steed as the Devil, the fallen being of light, seducing Sheba!), the creator being a Mormon and all. The SciFi stuff was mostly an excuse to provide a religious message.

The new one is much more complex and doesn't have quite the same tone. They may use the old stuff again but hopefully they will twist it to suit the new series. Besides in the dreams/visions, the final five are shown as beings of light so in a way, we've already seen them!

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[> [> [> [> [> sure sure -- Rmartin, 21:52:55 08/23/07 Thu [1]

The new Battlestar is leaps and bounds and head and shoulders and some other two things that go together better than the original.

SciFi as a religious message? I question that thesis.

You could be right about the 'five' being the beings of light. All I'm saying is, I've noticed events of the new have paralleled the old.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I have been watching my Original series DVDs over the hiatus... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 00:47:31 08/24/07 Fri [1]

And just got to the "Ship Of Lights" two-parter the other day. Tell me (seeing as my only exposure to the original series are the DVDs themselves), did we ever find out what was in the ship Count Iblis (?) was discovered near that we the audience - and Athena - weren't allowed to see?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The short answer, no -- Rmartin, 00:13:31 08/25/07 Sat [1]

Everyone on the show, at least it seemed, got to see what was so horrific inside the ship, but alas, not us the actual viewer. I assume they did that as the "Jaws" factor. In the movie, "Jaws", the shark wasn't shown till near the end. They did that for two reasons. First, they thought it would be scarrier to just have the music and darkness, and second, they had problems with the mechanical shark and couldn't use it until almost all of the film had been shot. If they had shown us burned up bodies or something inside the ship, it wouldn't have been as horrific as what could be left to the imagination. Plus, it's cheaper to film the viewer's imagination.

If you're just at that point, you haven't gotten to what I believe was a much better arc of the light beings. I won't spoil you, but they show up again when the Galactica "thinks" it has found Earth.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: sure sure -- Chani, 11:09:50 08/25/07 Sat [1]

Here's ssomething that deedeeknowitall posted once on another board:

Excerpt from an article on the original BSG:

Glen Larson (creator and producer of Galactica) is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and many parallels between his church's and the show's mythologies can be found.

The main characters in Galactica are the last remnants of the Twelve Colonies, which were founded by twelve tribes of humans who left their home planet of Kobol, which had become inhabitable because of either natural or man-made contamination. There was a "lost thirteenth tribe" who went a different direction than the rest and, as the story goes, ended up colonizing Earth. Commander Adama once delivered the following speech about their origins: "Our recorded history tells us we descended from a mother colony, a race that went out into space to establish colonies. Those of us assembled here now represent the only known surviving Colonists, save one. A sister world, far out in the universe, remembered to us only through ancient writings..." He goes on to assert that the "lost thirteenth tribe" colonized Earth. Something called "The Book of The Word" described the journey of the tribes of man away from Kobol.

In the Mormon church, The Book of Mormon describes the journey of a "thirteenth tribe" There were twelve tribes of Israel and the prophet Lehi took a remnant of the tribe of Joseph (creating a "lost thirteenth tribe") and somehow travelled from the middle east to North America around 600 BC. They ended up splitting into two tribes, one of whom flourished and according to the book are the descendants of the American Indians. Additionally, the name Kobol is made up of the rearranged letters making up the word Kolob, which is the star "nearest unto the throne of God," or the name of the planet where the Mormons' god, Elohim, is from.

In the TV show, the planet Kobol itself was considered destroyed or just a legend until it was found in the episode, "Lost Planet of the Gods." Adama thought there was a secret passage to Earth in the tomb of the Ninth Lord in the lost city of Eden on Kobol. He identified the tomb by the Ninth Lord's seal.

In the episode "War of the Gods," there is a "Ship of Lights" commanded by mysterious beings. In one scene, Starbuck asks the them if they are angels. The "entity" responds with, "Oddly enough, there is some truth to your speculation." When he inquires, "But why are you bothering with us? We are from a simple handful of human survivors," Starbuck is told: "Because, as you are now, we once were. As we are now, you may become."

This is interesting because the fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow coined the expression, "As man is God once was, as God is, man may be" as stated in the Articles of Faith (pg. 430). The LDS believes that God was once a man on another planet (sometimes referred to as Kolob) who followed the Mormon teachings, died, rose to the third level of heaven and eventually became a God, just as they teach that if you follow the Mormon teachings here on Earth you may eventually become the God of your own world after death.

Commander Adama notes, "The ancient ones, the Lords who first settled our Kobol, spoke of visitations from what they in their primitive way referred to as angels. Think of them as custodians of the universe, advanced beings, very highly advanced, whose mandate it is to make certain that their powers are never abused by any one of their own."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I had a theory... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 14:34:18 08/25/07 Sat [1]

... based around the story of "The Ancients" on Stargate SG-1.

I'm thinking that Head!Six, Head!Gaius and Head!Leoben (from "Maelstrom") are actually the "beings of light", as it were - in that they are the next stage of evolution from the previous cycle; they're the ones who evolved beyond "human" and "cylon", so Caprica, Gaius, Leoben would be three of them - you would assume Kara, Athena and the Final Five as well (given the vision D'Anna had in Rapture). I would guess there would be 13, given that there's 13 tribes and it would not surprise me if the rumour about the three other boxed models from season 4 get replaced by three humans (Gaius and two others - Helo and Adama?).

I would say that Head!Six, Head!Gaius and Head!Leoben have come to ensure the cycle stays on track - or maybe even to break the cycle? Maybe they want things to go differently this time around, echoing the decision Caprica and Boomer made in "Downloaded" having experienced life with the humans.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I had a theory... -- Chani, 10:23:12 08/27/07 Mon [1]

I know. I'd prefer to think that Head!Caprica, Head!Baltar and Head!Leoben exist only in the characters'minds though.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I definitely don't want to actually find out the answer to that... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 15:52:32 08/27/07 Mon [1]

It's the one part of the show that would be ruined for me if they ever revealed the truth of the situation. At least if we're in the dark, we can wank it to fit our own personal theories... of course, that could all change come the finale!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: sure sure -- Rmartin, 02:31:29 08/27/07 Mon [1]

Well, I think writers write about things they know and care about. But to suggest Galatica has a Mormon religeous message is about as real as saying they are trying to convert the faithfull to an anceint Greek religon by giving the characters names like Appolo and Athena.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> So -- Chani, 10:21:47 08/27/07 Mon [1]

you don't think that tv show writers ever want to convey messages whether it is about art, social messages, political messages or religious ones?

I do believe that it's first about creativity but I'm sure that, just like in cinema, they also make the most of the medium to tell things that are important for them. Joss did it with Buffy.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Actually, no I don't -- Rmartin, 22:36:48 08/27/07 Mon [1]

I don't feel this is being cynical, because I'm an avid believer in capitalism, but I think writers and producers main interest is to make money. When they stick to the Business of entertaining, quality will follow. I'm the everyman, and I can tell you the everyman doesn't like to be "preached" to. Tell me a good story about a girl from Sunnydale and her friends, and I'll call you a god, but I have no interest in watching the infomercial selling the femminist handbook.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Actually, no I don't -- Chani, 18:24:54 08/28/07 Tue [1]

Mmm I don't think that sticking to the business of entertaining necessarily ensures quality. Reality shows entertain many viewers (alas!), appealing to the audience's vilest instincts and yes they allow to make a lot of money yet it's -sorry for the language- pure crap. The producers of that sort of television definitely want only to make money but I'd like to believe that writers of good tv shows or good movies pursue another goal.

I never thought that BTVS was preaching, however JW obviously conveyed a few of his personal views through his show.

Entertainment and giving a message aren't mutually exclusive...as long as it's done with talent.

Charlie Chaplin was a genius, and I believe that he mostly wanted to make people laugh with his films but he also took advantage of the medium to convey his opinions on certain matters. It's obvious in "Modern Times" or in "The Great Dictator".

But we've digressed from BSG and the being of lights. :- )

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I agree with all you say -- Rmartin, 02:16:19 08/29/07 Wed [1]

We have strayed, haven't we.

You make a good point with "reality" TV. But it also goes to my point that those in Hollywood chase the buck. This too shall pass. Tv seems to go in cycles; sorta like the fashion industry.

I could of said it better if I had said quality follows honesty. What I mean to say is, if a writer believes in the work, it shows. Too often, what we get are elements that are added simply for their shock value. Whether it's controversial or sugar-sweet popular, if it comes from the heart, viewers will respond. Then we will get 20 shows coping the idea.