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Date Posted: 23:24:11 05/05/09 Tue
Author: iteo
Subject: Re: a message for you
In reply to: Michael 's message, "Re: a message for you" on 13:42:18 05/05/09 Tue

Well, you do make a good point Michael. In theory, I should hold on to none of these notions and maybe you're right about that.

But it's not a contradiction, and here's why:

My epiphany was short lived - that's true; but nevertheless, for a short period I was in a state of enlightenment (to what degree I cannot say with any certainty) - but I had absolutely no desire, and I mean that on every possible level, and I was very much in a nondual state of mind.

I simply didn't want anything, nor did I care about anything, I was neither happy nor sad - the best description is the word "peace" - but I was also not oblivious to everything either.

But it didn't last. In fact, months after my epiphany I read "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry" and I learned that my experience was typical of many Zen monks, nuns, etc. According to the book the state of enlightenment simply doesn't last.

In fact the author contends that no one can enter the state of enlightenment for good - but will drift out of the state after a period of time and he uses Buddhist scripture to prove his point (and also many experiences of modern day Zen masters). And even though my experience may seem to validate his argument - I still disagree him on that point. I do think that some may have entered the state of enlightenment permanently ( but I could wrong.)

But to say evil doesn't exist would be a lie on my part - I'd merely be parroting the enlightened teachers. While I now know that it is true on a deeper level and I did indeed experience the state they talk about, I am no longer in that state. I am back to what I was before. That state is something you cannot pretend to be in. When you reach it - you change on a level that goes beyond your own ability. I also changed physically - losing 25lbs in only 3 weeks with no effort and I had other physical changes as well.

The idea that good and evil do not exist is only true when one is enlightened. Otherwise the idea is merely philosophical. If someone is about to viciously harm another right in front of me, I cannot sit back and say that it's not evil and that I don't care because "good and evil" don't exist - that I am "above it all".

I am simply no longer in that state of mind anymore and I won't pretend to be. But I do have an absolute knowing that the enlightened teachers of the past speak the truth about duality and yet, I also can recognize "evil" (as well as "good") when I see it.

So here I am, caught between two worlds - which may seem contradictory to you, but it's not to me.

>Much of what you state I agree with....I would place
>myself firmly in the advaitist vedanta group. I
>believe that one has to still the mind so that one can
>see consciousness free from imagination, thought etc.
>
>The contradiction in your post is that you seem to
>support this belief (of going beyond the dual) but
>then talk of 'evil' and 'conspiracies'.
>
>You cannot rightly hold both. I know you will argue
>that whilst we are living in this world and are caught
>in its delusion then we have to deal with it as our
>role here, but I would argue that is true only in as
>much as it helps us to escape this illusion. Talk of
>'evil' and 'conspiracies' is doing the opposite by
>enmeshing you far more in the unreal. I would go
>further (even though I am unqualified to say this) and
>suggest that perhaps your 'epiphany' was only a slight
>glimpse of the real. From what i have been told, as
>one's mind becomes more introverted it becomes more
>concentrated. This has the effect of making it more
>powerful...and (unfortunately) it becomes more
>powerful in trying to throw you back into the world.
>
>You believe all this 'evil' and 'conspiracy' is the
>illusion of the mind, (if you agree with advaitism) so
>hold that reality to be true and dont allow your mind
>to throw you off course.
>
>>Fair enough.
>>
>>And no, I am honestly not trying to change the world,
>>that cannot be done. But I am trying to help those
>>closest to me. Probably a mistake, chalk it up to my
>>human nature.
>>
>>I have to admit that I sometimes tell myself that I am
>>wasting my time - people cannot be helped. And I guess
>>that that's probably true. I sometimes think that you,
>>Roger and David are here to teach me that lesson.
>>
>>I mention the conspiracy stuff because I know it's
>>true (it's not a belief, I truly know this) and
>>because I know�I feel remiss in not sharing it.
>>Whether I am making a mistake in telling others
>>remains to be seen. But if you see someone walking
>>into a cave and you know for certain there's a bear in
>>there � you naturally want to warn them. That's my
>>dilemma.
>>
>>However, most people have firmly held beliefs that
>>there are no 'bears', etc. and anyone who says there
>>are is misguided.
>>
>>But that aspect is the least important to my mind. 90%
>>of what I write is about duality. The "evil" I mention
>>however will rear its ugly head and you will be
>>confronted with it. I am just pointing out that good
>>and evil are the mistaken interpretation of duality
>>and that the only escape from evil is to free oneself
>>from duality. This is the real message of the great
>>spiritual teachers IMHO.
>>
>>That said, for many, it is their *beliefs* that are
>>holding them back - they cannot see beyond their
>>firmly held beliefs. The Diamond Cutter Scripture
>says:
>>
>>"Even the religion is to be abandoned, how much more
>>that which is contrary to it".
>>
>>

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Replies:

Re: a message for you -- Michael, 13:42:09 05/07/09 Thu
- Re: a message for you -- grasshopper, 19:21:04 09/02/10 Thu