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Subject: The Great Debate Author: luka [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 08/30/06 5:59am I was reading a transcrip of an old interview that was broadcast on television a few years ago. It was about late term abortions and whether or not they should be legal. Inevitably the topic of wether abortion should be allowed at an earlier gestation than 20 weeks. I am split in my veiws. I think in the majority of cases abortion is uncalled for and purely tradgic. But i am not so sure when i comes to a baby with severe abnormalities that will not survive outside the womb.. And i don't believe a woman should have to carry a baby to term if it puts her life in danger. In this particular debate that i was reading they , of course had a couple who had to have a termination at 24 weeks because the baby was found to have severe abnormalities of various internal organs including the heart and would not survive once born may even die before then. They talk about late term abortions being only ever done for these reasons. Thats what frustrates me. I know first hand just how easy it is to have an abortion just because youre scared or single or whatever. Abortion clinics don't even really push you for a reason, half the time they are trying to convince you that you shouldn't keep the baby. Seriously. I know that in certain states you can have a late term abortion up to 24 weeks for social reasons or just because youre not ready ect. Thats what annoys me. I don't think these journalists have a clue of just how easy it is for a woman to terminate her pregnancy. I feel sorry for women who fall pregnant to controlling abusive men. I really honestly do and i would not try to convince her to continue the pregnancy (or persude her not to) if she was fairly early and continuing the pregnancy would include a life of tourment with the man using the child to hurt her and thus hurting the child psycologically and or physically. That would be a nightmare for everyone involved. I hear some say youre either pro choice or youre pro life. I still feel that i am largely pro life though. Anyway my main point being that in the debate of abortion be it late term or early the real issue should be how easy it is for women to have a termination and how the focus is allowed to er on the side of not keeping the baby but when certain pregnancy advisors (yes usually pro life ones) try to present the alternatives to abortion it is as if they are nutters trying to convince women of their own convictions with little regard for their welfare. And most of us here know thats simply not true and quite the opposite. I think it's more than reasonable that women be encouraged to think long and hard about exactly what you're disposing of when you have a temrination. I only wish that abortion clinics had more reverence for life and realised that not every girl walks out of there with her uterus raw and scaped empty leaves there feeling good about what she did. That some of us wish we hadn't and only realise when it's too late. They don't see the aftermath. They don't feel what it's like for the baby, embyro, fetus..mother. It shouldn't be like a drive through Mac Donalds and i feel that abortions are as easy to get as a hamburger and i think that should be reviewed. Not to take away choice nessisarily but to make sure women understand what they are doing. I know i am repeating myself here, but i just have to tell you. I have had a few abortions and yes they have you talk to a counsellor or a psycologist first but it feels more like the therapist is there for the paper work side of things. you aren't probed you pretty much say i don't want the baby and they take it away youre not challenged on anything you say really. Thats been my experience anyway. Maybe i'm wrong. If i am and someone has had a different experience i'd be really interested in hearing about an abortion clinic with a conscience. What does everyone else think? [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Pat [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08/30/06 3:12pm Hi, Luka, I am involved in several groups that help women decide, and usually we all try to discourage debate on the political questions, because we want to make the groups a safe place for women to discuss their pending decisions. That said, I'll just offer a couple of thoughts. As far as a baby who is too disabled to live is concerned, that isn't really quite the problem a lot of people try to make out. If the baby won't live anyway, then there is no long-term care issue involved, so the burden from that standpoing is relatively light. There may well be trauma when the baby dies, but there is also trauma in case of abortion, and having faced this situation, I can tell you I am glad I don't have an abortion on my conscience. Many things can be done to help these babies toward a more normal life, and there are breakthroughs every day. And sometimes prenatal diagnosis is flat-out wrong and the baby is really normal. I don't think it's a good solution, and I wouldn't encourage a woman to decide to abort a baby for that reason. In any case, disabled people see this reason for abortion as a threat, because it decides who is worthy to live or die based on disability, and that makes the disabled into second-class citizens. In the final analysis, abortion cuts off hope, and may in fact result in killing a baby who is either normal, or close to it. Prenatal diagnosis simply isn't that accurate. If a woman is with an abusive man, she needs to get out of the relationship. Having an abortion really means succumbing to his abusiveness. A woman is abusing herself. It doesn't solve anything. Granted, there may be difficulties disengaging herself from this man, but she needs to do it regardless, and there are various steps she can take to protect herself and her baby. Though they are not absolute, having a baby to protect can motivate some women to leave the relationship. Abusing herself probably means she won't think she is worthy of having a decent relationship. So I don't think abusing her baby fatally is an answer to an abusive relationship. Again, she will certainly have an easier time of her emotional state if instead of abusing her baby, she works to protect him or her from the abusive man. Being pro-life is about accepting that science has told us that the baby is fully human, and what we wouldn't do to a baby who has been born should not be done to a baby who hasn't been born. Being pro-life also is about recognizing that abortion is bad for women, and we deserve the protection of the law. As things stand now, at least 2/3 of all women who get abortions have been coerced. These women deserve protection, and it doesn't exist. I know this because I faced that situation myself. I once had a pregnancy where a "doctor" (who was really an abortionist) whom I didn't know tried to coerce me into an abortion, and used lies to try to convince me I was no longer pregnant. I wanted to sue him for the mental anguish he caused me (months of horrible nightmares) but I had no legal case because we are not protected. As for the life of the mother, granted there are a few situations where that might be an issue. If that is the case, I think a doctor has a duty to try to preserve the lives of both. If it isn't possible, then the baby should be delivered alive and attempts should be made to help the baby live, but if not, comfort care should be provided while nature takes its course. I can't offhand think of a situation where a doctor has to deliberately kill a baby to save a woman's life. Basically, women deserve better answers. I think there is no excuse for abandoning a woman to an abortionist who really just wants to make money off her body. There's a reason why the "counseling" is inadequate. Former abortionists have told us that they teach their staff to sell abortions. There is a huge conflict of interest problem. Given how many women are being hurt by outright butchery, and the fact that even under the care of a competent and conscientious practitioner abortion is still very dangerous medically and emotionally, I don't offhand see any excuse for giving abortionists a free ride. Making abortion illegal is really about protecting women from abortionists, not about prosecuting women. That is a matter of consensus among pro-life people. Legal abortion protects abortionists, not women. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you may have some unresolved issues of your own, and I would encourage you to work on resolving them. I am involved in groups that are for women who need to do just that, and you would be most welcome in such groups, and I would be most happy to talk to you. Please give what I have said some thought. :) I hope this helps. Hugs, Pat

[> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: luka [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08/30/06 8:07pm Well said. I agree that if i was told my baby was going to die as soon as it is born or whatever i would carry the baby to term and see what happens. I would not want to have been the one who took the childs life either. And any hope that the child would survive even the faintest praying for a miracle would have been enough to continue the pregnancy because miracles do happen :) With regard to women in abusive situations the sad fact is that men continue to abuse women through the court system because sometimes it can be hard to prove the abuse or the man may have more money for a legal defense ect, some judges think that you only need to simply be the father of the child in order to have a right to vistitaion or more regardless of wether or not he was abusive or had the potential to be with the child. Things can be twisted and it can be the woman can be falsely accused of being vindictive and thus her concerns are overlooked.I'm sure youre all aware of the abuse of the term perental alienation syndrome in America. (but thats another debate) Women are taken for granted in their role as mothers but a man only has to bounce a child on his knee and he is super dad. In other words men seem to only have to feign interest in their children to be looked apon favourably. I know of a few cases where men with criminal records and such have had not only access to their children but in some cases custody and subsequently the child is abused and the mother is in agony legally unable to protect her child. It's frightening. Does it make is ok for a woman possibly facing such a fate to kill her unborn child? Does it mean her child has less of a right to live as any other? No. But it would be understandable that a woman in those circumstances would consider abortion. Again i'm not saying it's what she should though. I was doing some research of my own and All of the abortion clinics my way say they do abortions anywhere up to 20 weeks by vacum aspiration or some kind of suction. It's positively vile to think of a human child being killed in such a way, but also i wonder if thats entirely true. I just don't see how they are able to extract a 20 week old fetus from a mothers womb by suction curettage alone. Here is a portion of the interview i was speaking of. - PETER OVERTON: What techniques do you use to perform late-term abortions? DAVID GRUNMANN: We use a range of techniques. I'm not going to go into the specifics because I don't believe it advances the debate on either side terribly much. PETER OVERTON: Do you pierce the baby's head with a sharp instrument? DAVID GRUNMANN: As I said, I'm not going to discuss details or specifics about procedures because I don't think that you or the public needs to know specifics about a very small number of procedures. If I'm talking to a medical audience I'll have no problem discussing procedures because they understand it. PETER OVERTON: Is that because the procedure is so bad and so explicit and destructive? DAVID GRUNMANN: It's because the anti-choice people like to create hysteria about certain aspects of late abortion which I don't think that the public really needs to debate. *INTERESTING how he refuses to discuss exactly HOW those abortions are performed. PETER OVERTON: Only two percent of abortions are considered late term. But it's a potent weapon for anti-abortion protesters like Anne Dowling. Okay, you're now under arrest from state police... ANNE DOWLING: If there is a baby on the road, you would jump on the road, stop the traffic to pick up the baby. I can't pick up the baby, but I can stop the traffic. PETER OVERTON: Anne has seven children of her own but is prepared to go to jail for the cause. She's been arrested 25 times. ANNE DOWLING: A baby's going to die. A baby's going to be killed. What do you do? You hand someone a leaflet about it? No, you block the door and that's what we do. FIONA RICHARDS: We definitely did do the right thing because we weren't able to see that at the time, that it was the right thing, because we were so overwhelmed by feelings of guilt and loss and grief but once we were able to think about it, basically we had no choice. PETER OVERTON: Isn't it about the woman? JULIAN McGAURAN: Well, the women of course do not have an unfettered choice in this matter. If society is going to lead itself down that slippery slope where they will start aborting late term on the grounds of disability, then where do you draw the line? Where is the new line? PETER OVERTON: But, Senator, we're not talking disability, we're talking severe abnormalities, abnormalities that specialists have told the parents will kill their child? JULIAN McGAURAN: With modern medicine, a great many of these physical disabilities can be fixed up. It's a nonsense argument to say that you've been given evidence or a diagnosis by a doctor of a disability and that is exactly how it will be born. Quite often it does not. PETER OVERTON: No, hold on, who's the expert — the senator or the doctor? JULIAN McGAURAN: Well, I know of many examples and many doctors speak to me about it, that there's a prolifera of misdiagnosis. I mean, how close are we going to get to the point of infanticide? PETER OVERTON: What if this woman is told by a cardiologist, by her obstetrician, that your child has no chance of surviving. Doesn't the woman have a right to make a decision about what she wants? JULIAN McGAURAN: Well, it's my view that she doesn't. If she's been given those views, there are many equally case examples of survival. And that child ought to be given a chance to survive. FIONA RICHARDS: I would have probably killed myself if I could not terminate that pregnancy. If I had to carry that baby for another four months, feeling that kicking and then knowing that this baby, once it's a fully grown baby, was going to die — I could not live with that. Excuse me, we'd like to speak to you if we can. We're a couple that did have to have a late-term abortion. PETER OVERTON: When it comes to abortion, emotions run high on both sides. FIONA RICHARDS: Whether it's a 16-year-old girl who decides to terminate her pregnancy for whatever reason, or a 30-year-old whose baby is dying, that is a very personal thing. No-one should butt in, not a politician and not you. PETER OVERTON: The argument once seemed black and white — you were either for or against. But the focus on late-term abortion has brought shades of grey. FIONA RICHARDS: You've got to decide what you think is right for yourself. No-one else could have decided that for me. I was the one carrying that baby. I was the one suffering. It was my loss, it was my grief, I had to deal with it the only way I knew how to. PETER OVERTON: At a Melbourne cemetery, Natalie mourns the girl she never held. Four years on, the pain hasn't receded. At times the hurt so great she even thought of ending her own life. NATALIE WITHERS: I really didn't want to live with the pain anymore. So ... there was ... probably times of thinking that I would've rather go and be with her. She looked pained when she was born. She was born with her mouth open. If I was confronted with it again, I could not do it again. I couldn't play God again. This interview was taken in 2005. Incidentally Peter Overton the interveiwer is currently expecting his first child with his wife after having difficulty conceiving. I wonder what he now thinks of all of this... Pat i am amazed at hearing a doctor tried to coerce you into having an abortion. I would be interested in hearing more about that if you felt comfortable sharing your story. This is a really interesting thread! You both raised some VERY vaild points!

[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Heather [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08/30/06 11:52pm Really interesting excerpt, Luka. Sounds very realistic. I had the thought when hearing it said over and over that the public didnt need to know about what happened in a late term abortion because it only involved 2% that it's relevent to consider how many abortions 2% of 1.3 million is: 26,000 babies aborted a year that were over halfway through their pregnancy. And that's just in America. And it's definitely not correct that the vaccuum method is used on a 20 week old baby. Anyone remotely curious can google abortion methods and see what's involved in the procedures at different weeks. Here's another interesting transcript of interview from a man, abortionist, who used to own several clinics but later become pro-life. He speaks about the inside things of an abortion clinic that make you wonder why it doesn't seem like there's much conscience there. http://www.abortionfacts.com/dr_willke/connector_july_98.asp#1 I think it's a must read for anyone interested in hearing both sides. Hard to read in some parts, but not because of anything graphic. Heather

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: luka [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08/31/06 3:26pm Yeah i agree it is disturbing... I think what the focus should be on helping understand whats really happening they need to hear from women who have had an abortion and come to regret it. Thats what is never mentioned in the media and it really needs to be addressed. Reading that article was horrible.. It's so hard to think about but it's totally true the atmosphere in those abortion clinics i still remember vividly and i was crying as i was getting myself onto the operating table when i went for one of my terminations and nobody seemed terribly concerned about it. It's never been a question for me of wether or not abortion clinics care they don't go out of their way to pretend that they do either. On a lighter note my baby is kicking and tumbling around inside of me almost all the time now. There are regular paterns of activity and quiet, sometimes i wonder what on earth he is doing because the movements feel very quick. I know he's probably still quite small but i feel his movements so clearly he seems bigger to me than he probably is. I wish i had an idea of just how big he was now compared to some common household item just so i had an idea. Anyway i think it's safe to say that he is very healthy and strong in there :) and Phew! after all of my recent research on abortion it just makes me so happy to know that i didn't succumb to the pressures of his father to have him killed. I know i could have said abortion but the fact is that he would have died if i had one, i prefer to use plain english. I remember the first abortion i ever had was forced by my mother the susequent was because the babys father (funny, it was same father of the baby i am pregnant to now) refused to talk to me about it. Stopped being affectionate emotionally abandned me, hung me out to dry. I accepted this treatment at the time because i had been abandoned so many times i was simply afraid to be alone literally alone with literally nothing and no one. I was very young and there was nobody around who cared about me or my baby to tell me otherwise. Based on my experiences it's my opinion that when forced into having an abortion at a young age it almost sets a precedent that an unplanned pregnancy should and could be aborted. It's horrible. Because in your mind untill you do it it seems like something you can just go and do, but afterwards and right before there is this sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach some call it conscience or intuition or various other things. I was also abused sexually as a child. I had no solid concept for what was right or wrong then either but i do remember that same horrible gut feeling that erodes from the inside like poison. I believe regardless of what we are taught we have an inbuilt abilty, an innate sense of what is truely right and wrong or not even right or wrong i just can't think of a better word right now.. But you know what i mean. I think sometimes our bodies give us signals and our minds get all tangled up in logic and debates. I mean some would argue that a woman in my circumstances cannot afford to have another baby much less to a man who doesn't love me or the baby. But i know i can do it and it can be ok and keeping my baby is the only thing sat sits right with my head and heart. Thats not to say that it won't be difficult at times (which can be said for someone in apparently better circumstances), I am prepared for that. I know what i am getting myself into and it is absolutley worth doing. I have no horrible sinking feeling in my stomach about my decision. It feels good and my mind is not cluttered with the confusion and heartache that comes with thinking on any level that i should have my baby aborted. I think confusion is only really denial in disguise. Confusion usually comes from know what the right thing to do is but not wanting to do it through fear or whatever and then trying to convince yourself of what others want you to do.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Heather [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08/31/06 8:16pm Hi Luka, I agree it's disturbing. I think what really concerns me at times is the promotion of the idea by the abortion industry that 'anti-choicers' are obsessed with only the baby and don't have the best interests of the woman at heart. And here you read from an ex-abortionist what can already be surmised about how very calloused and degradingingly they regard women. All the clinics set up for abortion alternatives that I've observed contain women helping women, quietly behind the scenes, WITHOUT BEING PAID the big bucks that the abortion industry pays out to it's employees but instead volunteer their time to support women who choose life. They're there because they genuinely care about the woman and her baby. My husband and I are board members of a local pro-life organization in our city and the motto underneath the simple logo for our group says 'Love Them Both.' I also agree with the positive focus in the motto of the Feminists for Life website - "Women Deserve Better." Yet despite this reality that I see evidenced among dear women and men everywhere who are part of the pro-life community, I continue to hear us in the media as 'anti-choice extremists.' Go figure! I agree also with the quote that abortion has done more to liberate men than women. By sweet-talking or flat out pressuring a woman they've had sex with to abort the evidence of it, they are able to play around much more without taking on the responsibility aspect of sex. And it's the woman who must undertake the abortion and live out her life with the effects of it. I'm not anti-men at all, lol. I just think it's far too enticing of an 'easy exit' for many that put their lust before the genuine well-being of the woman. Women struggle just as much with their own stuff. Anyway, I'm so thrilled for you that you were able to 'just say NO' lol to this pressure from the biological father and that you are now feeling the movements and experiencing the peaceful resolve you expressed so well in the end of your post. I always enjoy reading your posts and think you're an amazing woman. I really respect you. On the one hand, I can't help but be sorry for the particular abuses and trials you've endured in your relatively young life (hey, we can still call ourselves young, can't we?) but I'm also profoundly thankful for the measure of wisdom these experiences have shaped in you so far. I can relate about the sudden kicking, wondering what on earth babe could be up to. My first baby, our son, did this to me constantly. He is now 8 and I tell him that when he was in my womb he really had it in for my lowest left rib. He spent the entire pregnancy kicking at it and I kept telling him (in the womb) that he'd really be much better off if he would just move himself instead of trying to move my permanent bone structure, lol. He was relentless. And after kicking at that rib for awhile he'd do little sharp kicks suddenly then go totally quiet. He never gradually started moving. He would wake up and immediately jab which startled me on more than one occassion. I'm getting sentimental now thinking about that first pregnancy and am remembering the first time I ever felt him move. Since it was my first time being pregnant I was filled with curiosity and anticipation of wondering what it would be like to feel another human being moving around INSIDE you. I kept waiting, trying to feel him in there. Then one day, I was just driving along and I felt 'the butterflies.' I tensed up and wondered if that sensation was what I thought it was. Then it came again, just swirling like butterflies in my belly and I swear it seemed like chorale music started up in my head. I had to pull over to soak in the wonder of it. But he got over the 'butterfly' stage pretty quick and moved on to the pronounced kicking as soon as he was able, lol. I love this boy so much now. I thank God often for the good friendship we have. I really enjoy his company and have an easygoing, mutual respect with him that gives us a great relationship. I'm so happy for you, at the expense of sounding too trite. :) Heather

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: luka [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/ 1/06 3:54am Just read one of your posts again and forgot to add that yeah i agree about the 2% thing. I mean why is it any less horrific because there are less babies dying such a horrifc traumatic death at that gestation than say a 12 week old fetus??? It should not happen to even 1 child let alone thousands or millions.

[> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Heather [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08/30/06 4:43pm Hi Luka, Wow, great thread! I agree with quite a few of your observations. In America, abortions can be performed on a walk-in basis for any reason up to 24 weeks. I've never heard of there needing to be a reason. Most women I've talked to who've had abortions don't seem very impressed with the pre-abortion counseling offered at clinics, either. It does appear to be a liability coverage more than a sincere desire to nurture well-being for the woman. Many seem to describe it as counsel of why they shouldn't feel guilty about the choice of abortion, etc, and making them feel more comfortable with it. Others have complained that the counseling took place just moments before the surgery was scheduled, and at that point there's a lot of pressure to go through with a planned operation. So in addressing peripherally the closing query you had about people's thoughts on abortion clinics and whether or not there are any with a 'conscience' I wanted to add my agreement to your observations, regrettably. I think it would be foolish to ignore the very significant role money has in the matter, too. A few years ago, abortion was one of the leading industries in America. When you consider that there are about around 1.3 million abortions a year (in America) at an average of $650/per abortion (1st trimester ones average $400, 2nd and 3rd $800-$1400) - it's more than just a 'women's health issue,' it's a huge industry. If you do the math on what a single clinic can make in a day then figure out the annual income of the clinic....... A lot can be concluded about the conscience of the abortion industry in some stats from 2000. One is that the president of Planned Parenthood, Gloria Feldt, was given an annual income of $302,000 - plus benefits. (The president of the United States made $200,000 that year!) More pause for contemplation - in 2001 Planned Parenthood, (which accounts for about 15% of all abortions in the U.S.) performed 182,184 abortions and gave only 2,990 adoption referrals. Statistically, this amounts to 61 abortions for every 1 adoption referral. Clearly, something is unbalanced and encouraging a heavy emphasis in the direction of aborting when a woman comes to their clinics in an unplanned pregnancy. My personal inkling is that those 2990 women who got adoption referrals only got them because they were insistent that this was the choice they wanted for themselves. But regarding the 'debate' question about your post, what to say about fetuses that are diagnosed as having no chance of survival, my personal thoughts are that 1) never say never - God can do anything and miracles happen and 2) if the new human life is non-viable, it's best to let them follow the natural course of their life and die naturally so there's no interference or doubts. In short, I think that if God creates and sustains life He alone should be the one to expire it for reasons only He knows. As a woman in such a pregnancy, there would be no easy solution for me. Grief is grief whether it's grief caused by a natural death or a forced one. But I'd rather have the natural death so I could close that chapter knowing that it was not me who told the doctor to take their final breath from them, but rather that I cradled them within me until their time to go. On a larger level, the issue of precedent is critical, too. Once the door is opened to the idea that there are some situations where we can decide when a human being isn't fit to live, we open the door to having to justify why that logic isn't okay to apply to other human beings, and history has shown that we've done a poor job holding the line. We've committed genocide and 'ethnic cleansing' on a wide variety of unfortunate people but the common denominator has been the same in each travesty - they were unwanted and/or deemed unfit to live. And the prerequisite of dehumanization of the selected class preceded each, too. I don't think a person should have their life taken from them for any reason barring issues of self-defense or appropriate justice. Even a person on life support who has written beforehand that they don't wish to be kept alive is making their own choice to let themselves die naturally. An abortion is such a violent choice because it takes that right/decision away from a human being. I always cringe when I hear the popular motto of Planned Parenthood "Every Child a Wanted Child." This is meant to pull the heartstrings in thinking we should only bring children into the world that are wanted. It cleanly ignores the reality that at any given point in America there are 2 million people longing to adopt, and with 1.3 abortions it can be safely said that every child IS wanted. But more importantly, if the new human being's life is truly so cursed and wretched that they 'wouldn't possibly want to be born in the world' why not be truly 'pro-choice' and let them decide for themselves? They can always commit suicide and take their own life if they truly believe it wasn't worth living. It would be an awful choice, but at least it was there's to make for themselves, not inflicted upon them by another 'for their own good.' And lastly, most applicable to those in your proposed question that are terminal - if they don't die naturally during the pregnancy, they become now a 'human being on life support.' In this arena, I think it's fair to question where we got the idea that a person's right to live should be contigent upon their level of 'wantedness.' In my personal opinion, I don't think abortion is ultimately a political or religious issue, but a humanity one. People from all political and religious pursuasions should be able to agree that a person's race, gender, religion, residence, income or I.Q level should not be deciding factors in whether or not they live or die. Even human beings who believe there is no God agree that no human should take the place of one. They condone the law that we can't murder 'normal' human beings on these grounds. The subjective exceptions allowed in genocide, including abortion, are easily dismantled. Preceding every genocide is a propaganda/justification campaign beforehand to promote a dehumanization of the class of people about to be exterminated. In the famous example of the halocaust, Hitler didn't just take power and decide to kill all of the Jews. Years preceded that event in history of encouraging public opinion to sour towards viewing them as being fully human. They were blamed for the economic and political fall out of Germany and Austria during that time, were accused of 'overbreeding' to take over and the public was ultimately conditioned to regard Jews as 'dirty' and 'rodents' with an ominous agenda. So when the gestapo came to do the actually herding up and killing, it was unsettling, sure, but not exactly murder of real human beings - these were 'just jews.' They had been dehumanized. The abuse and killings (lynchings) of black people during the slavery era in our country bore the same marks of dehumanization. (Remember even after slavery was abolished black people counted for only a fraction of a vote instead of a full vote?) They were dehumanized first, so the abuse and killings could be socially digested. And now we have abortion. They are not 'rodents' or 'niggers' they are 'fetal tissue' and 'menstrual extraction' and 'contents of the uterus.' Killing a 'product of conception' is nowhere near as problematic as killing a 'human life' which it is, scientifically. Planned Parenthood, on their website under 'what to expect during the procedures' actually describes having a first trimester abortion as having your uterus 'gently cleaned.' That's such successful dehumanization that it sounds like you're going to the dentist! At any rate, in saying my views on this I should also clarify that I regard the hand of the abortionist and the social promotion of the abortion industry that tell women it's just a 'reproductive choice' and a responsible one at that as much more responsible than the women who have abortions themselves. Too many realize too late what they did and are frustrated and devastated to discover that in addition to having to deal with their own guilt and loss over their choice, they have to contend with the anger they feel in being misled by the abortion industry or pressured by others into a choice that violated their instincts. I think it's best to rule out abortion as a viable solution to ANY challenge in a pregnancy whether it's the 'unwantedness' of the new human life, their gender (some Asian countries) or their health. I see the exception of the life of the mother as being valid, because her life is as valuable as the one inside of her. Those are my thoughts; I look forward to hearing others as well. Heather

[> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Melanie [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/ 1/06 12:07am I think my best response is here: http://www.benotafraid.net/ --Melanie

[> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Shellie [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/ 1/06 11:03am Hi Luka, I won't cover all my thoughts (Pat and Heather eloquently voiced many of my thoughts already, anyway). First of all, Heather is absolutely correct in saying that aborting babies is viewed as acceptable because they have first been dehumanized. Somehow the fact that these babies are inside their mother’s womb makes them subhuman. I think if we view life as God does, we won’t see grey. Yesterday morning as I was driving down the freeway I heard a song that displays that way of thinking. Here are the lyrics: Lyrics - You're Beautiful Down a cold and darkened hallway A doctor stood alone, With a young and frightened father Who knew something was wrong He said, Son this isn't easy But we really need to talk. So he put his arm around him And they began to walk. He said your wife is finally sleeping She just needs to be alone right now. And your baby, well she's healthy, But there's something you should know. Son, she's slightly less than perfect, And there's nothing we could do. So before you go to see her, I thought I'd talk to you. As the young man held the warm, And sleeping bundle to his chest, He saw the imperfections, And although he tried his best, He couldn't stop the tears from falling, As he held his little girl. And in a low and trembling voice, He gently said these words; You're beautiful in every way, so beautiful. How I've waited for this day. If the world was offered to me, I just couldn't make the trade. Cause you're beautiful When I think of how I've fallen, And all the times I've tried, To hide my imperfections, From my Father's eyes. There's a voice that still is calling, Deep inside of me. And I can always hear it when I get on my knees. You're beautiful in every way, so beautiful. How I've waited for this day. When the world was offered to me, I just couldn't make the trade. Cause you're beautiful. You'd be amazed at how some things matter, And some things don't, When you're seen through, The eyes of God. Though we try to hide our darkness, And fill our dreams, He only sees what's in your heart. And you're beautiful, in every way, So beautiful. How I've waited for this day. When the world was offered to me, I just couldn't make the trade. Cause you're beautiful I know God knows, you're beautiful You're beautiful... You're beautiful... You're beautiful... Artist - Bob Carlisle Is it okay to kill a baby because they are imperfect? To me there is no grey area. Once, I was talking to a family member who thinks it’s okay to abort babies with imperfections. At the time she had a small granddaughter who was about 2 years old. I asked her, “So, if your granddaughter was involved in a car wreck and the doctors told you that she would be mentally challenged, would you let them kill her?” She said, “Well, no!” Why then is it okay to kill mentally challenged babies who still live in the womb? And like Pat pointed out, doctors are wrong many times. During my first pregnancy (I was pregnant by an abusive ex) an ultrasound scan showed my unborn baby had a brain abnormality. Several doctors tried hard to convince me that abortion was the “best thing” for my baby and me since he’d be “severally retarded and may not even have control over his bowels”. Of course this upset me. We all want perfect babies. We want them to have the best shot at a good, productive life. Out of desperation I turned to God. After doing this I viewed my unborn baby through God’s eyes. I vowed to love my child and give him my best, no matter what! As it turned out, he was perfectly normal. He still has the brain abnormality (Hydrocephalus), but he is not affected by it. How many babies have been aborted because of a perceived disability? What about women who become pregnant by an abusive man? I see aborting a baby as the absolute worst abuse possible. I surely don’t see it as a way to protect a child from being harmed. How can I be so opposed to abortion but still feel understanding and sympathetic to women contemplating abortion (and post abortive women)? Because, I know just how scary an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy is. There is such a feeling of desperation. I think it’s normal to look for a way out. Society has tricked us into thinking abortion is the safe, reasonable, and responsible choice. Supposedly it “liberates” women. The lies…the many lies. I feel women are victims of abortion, just as the child is. Planned Parenthood’s abortion counseling is a joke. I know, because a PP “counselor” tried to convince me that my unborn baby would complicate my life and hold me back. No man would want me if I had another man’s child already. And what about college? She assured me that I could just get pregnant again, “when the time is right”. Luka, I admire you for spreading the truth about abortion. I’m sure you are saving lives and saving women from the heartbreak of abortion. The fact that you’ve been there lets women know that they can trust you and that you truly know what they’re going through. Keep up the good work, Luka! You're beautiful!! Take care, Shellie

[> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: luka [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/ 4/06 3:01am I've been thinking about the idea of abortion being illegal today and i think it sounds pretty reasonable...It's far more hopeful a situation than abortion. Because there is a new innocent beautiful baby comming into the world. There can be hope, there is a positive outcome and i don't know of many women who don't feel love for their children..But with abortions there is just destruction and emptiness. I believe that the opinions of those who are pro choice and alot of men regarding whether the baby is a baby, a life, a human being stems from the fact that untill it actually looks like a human being it's easier to pretend or in some cases to believe that it's not capable of feeling and is only a 'potential baby'. I realise that this is wrong but i just know thats how some people think..It's flawed logic as you know to say that well it's nerves ect aren't formed yet at say 6 weeks from the last period. But it's like saying well if i can kill my child in a way that she won't feel it then thats ok..which of course it is not.. You wouldn't painlessly kill a 6 year old and feel right about it would you? I think some women are foooled into believing abortion puts thigns back to normal and that they aren't losing anything by having their babies surgically removed/killed because when youre only newly pregnant everything is happening on the inside your life/heart isn't as affected as it will be when the baby is born you can't see it you can't feel it..And in some cases it's like an idea in your mind and if your mind is troubled by angry parents, threatening boyfriends finiancial concerns ect it's easy for women to dream up the idea that it is bad. What i mean to say is that an early embryo isn't as tangible as a 6 month old fetus or full term deliverd baby to a woman. So it makes it easier for her to pretend it's nothing to go and have it removed. Of course alot of us know from experience that even when youve fooled yourself into thinking that it's ok or whatever every body knows deep down what is truely right and wrong. It's only after youve gone and had an abortion that the reality sinks in, that horrible feeling inside comes creeping in. I have had abortions and i coped with my regret and tourment by just trying to block it out. It seems like the only way to get past it..And i know i'm not past it really..I'll never be past it..thats the futility of the death of another precious human being & the futility of abortion. You can talk it out or whatever but nothing ever makes it right and you never feel good about it. You never stop wishing you didn't do it wonderig if they were boys or girls ect..It's a heavy burden on your conscience, it's mind clutter allways there taking up space in what should be a clear head for thinking things through..I carry the guilt and i know i did it out of ignorance or fear or whatever but thats not a consolation. Life goes on you carry on. But it's not resolvable you just walk around with these self inflicted scars forever. Currently in my unplanned pregnancy..I am scared still feeling pretty hopeless with regard to my personal life. I feel that i should concentrate on my children and i do and i have. But i still feel sad for what i've never known. True love of a man. I never even had it from my own father. I'm starting to wonder if it's all a myth. I miss my childhood innnocence that was so fleeting. I miss feeling unencumbered by loss and heartache. The catch 22 situations..Yes i have beautiful children and i have no doubt at all that this baby will also be so exquistely angelic. But i am alone and have no one to share this with. I feel like everything is on me and i feel so responsible for everything , even things that i know logically are not my fault..I feel bad about them still...It's a heavy feeling. I cry some nights knowing that my tears are only for myself and that nobody worries about me or looks out for me, it's just me. Maybe thats reality anyway and i should be glad to know it. Be glad i'm not deluded. I used to be so optimistic about life , about people. Now i just feel like i was only ever foolish. It just gets harder for me as i get older i think, to be open enough to other people in order to invite good things into my life. I just feel so aprehensive these days.

[> [> [> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Sharon [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/ 4/06 2:07pm Oh, Luka... My heart breaks for you. I wish I could take some of your grief onto myself to help lighten your load even just a little bit. You know, the post-abortive women I know who have truly found JOY again in their lives ALL - without exception -have one thing in common: They have a personal relationship with Jesus and have accepted His healing grace and unconditional love. They've fully accepted that He has born ALL of the bad or wrong things they EVER did on the cross and that HE has most certainly forgiven them and does not want them to continue to suffer. They know, deep in their hearts, that HE wants for them to be healed. An interesting thing, too, is that they ALL also feel called, as you seem to, to share their personal stories with others in hopes of preventing other women from losing their children to abortion and having to live with the pain and regret. I know of one in particular, Barb Frick (an eloquent speaker and awesome woman who became pregnant the first time she ever had sex, had an abortion, and has never been able to conceive children since) who believes that the child she aborted (she feels she knows it was a little girl and so she has named her "Johanna") is in Heaven. She is certain that someday they will be reunited. So, I don't know what your feelings are about religion, and I sincerely hope I haven't offended you, but I felt I wanted to share this with you since it springs from my own personal experience of knowing women who are post-abortive. I will pray that you find healing and that you reach a place where you are able to experience true and lasting joy. I also pray that you one day find a man worthy of your trust and love - a many who can love you and your precious children as a man should. You are such an incredible person. I love reading your posts. You offer such deep insights in your responses to people. Your messages reflect a very sensitive soul. I suspect that sensitivity is partly to "blame" for your feeling the loss of your first little ones so acutely. But, that sensitivity has it's up-side: It means that you should also be able to feel blessings just as acutely ;-) God bless you, Luka. Sharon

[> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Sharon [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/ 2/06 11:04pm What an excellent thread! Thank you, Luka, for starting this one. I want to share a story with you of a student of mine who got pregnant while in college. Initially, she considered abortion. But, she saw a pro-life road sign and it really hit her. She made the decision that she was NOT going to have an abortion. When she went to the doctor, however, the ultrasound revealed a serious abnormality - her little one was anacephalic (meaning that she only had a brain stem.) Rachel was devastated. The doctors tried to convince her to have an abortion, but she refused. They told her the baby's abnormality was "not compatible with life" and that her baby would probably be still born or only live a few hours or, at most, a few days. But, Rachel felt that if her baby was to die, at least it would have the time in the womb and whatever short time it might have outside of the womb. I'm still incredilby impressed by the strength and grace she exhibited standing up to the doctors and choosing to mother her child in the womb and for however long her baby lived. It turns out that Lily was born alive and lived 31 days! She brought tremendous joy to those around her in her brief life. And, instead of being responsible for killing her in the womb, Rachel was able to hold her as she took her last breath at the end of her short life. As you may know, South Dakota is in the process of trying to decide whether or not to ban abortion in every case except life of the mother. We are the only state in the nation that has determined that life begins at conception and it is the duty of the state to protect the life of ALL citizens, born and preborn. The bill, which was passed by the SD legislatore and signed by the Governor, would make it illegal to perform abortions in SD (except to save the life of the mother.) It's called the "Women's Health and Human Life Protection Act." It has been challenged by the other side and put to a referendum vote to see if the population of the state supports it and wants it to become law. I'm part of the group that has formed to support it called http://www.VoteYesForLife.com If we win, we know the other side will challenge it in court. Our hope is that it will provide a test case for the U.S. Supreme Court to possibly overturn Roe V. Wade (which in 1973 made abortion legal in all 50 states, overriding any restrictions the states might have had in place.) Rachel is one of the women who have shared their stories at the http://www.VoteYesForLife.com Another is Karla, who shares her story of abortion and immediate regret. (It's heartwrenching.) There are also stories of rape victims who choose to give birth to their children conceived as a result of rape and of rape victims who chose to abort and felt that the abortion was almost like a "medical rape". There are so many myths about abortion: that it's rare (it's not rare at atll: 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in abortion in America), that feminists are pro-choice (Naral and NOW would like you to believe that, but the truth is the EARLY feminists were ALL staunchly pro-LIFE - check out Feminists for Life), that abortion is necessary for rape and incest victims (women who choose life for their babies report feeling like they were able to make something good come out of something bad, and in the case of incest it is typically the PERPETRATOR who wants the abortion, NOT the victim.) Sharon

[> Subject: Re: The Great Debate Author: Pat [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09/27/06 9:25pm Hi, Luka, Sorry I didn't come back and answer you sooner. I don't mind you knowing the details of my story. You can find them here: My story And you can also read another story on my web site, by a woman who was actually physically forced to submit to an abortion: Liferose I read the transcript from the discussion. That's really sick! Saying that because your baby is going to die, you have to kill her! The one really beautiful thing about my story is that my conscience is clear. I protected my baby until it was her time to go Home. I didn't take away from her the little life she had. My sister had a baby when she was in her late 30's. The doctor asked her if she wanted amniocentesis to see if the baby had any abnormalities. She said, No, I wouldn't have an abortion anyway. So when he was born, they found that he has Down Syndrome. I remember her calling me and telling me she was going to do her best to help him be the best he can possibly be. It turned out that he was more advanced in language than an exceptionally gifted "normal" child. His language development was that of a five year old when he was only 3 1/2. He is now in his teens. He has been an incredible blessing! At times I'm even jealous she got him instead of me! He brought healing to the family as well. I am outraged that 95% of the babies who have Down Syndrome are now being killed by abortion. These parents have no idea what a wonderful experience they are missing. And it makes it that much harder for the ones who are born, because if we provided the right environment, they would develop and learn very well, but now that it is so easy to get rid of them, there is no motivation to provide a good environment for them. I hope and pray that you will heal from your experiences. I know healing is possible. I agree; the women I have known who have healed are the ones who have accepted that Jesus died for them, so they could be reconciled to God. You are so precious, and I am so grateful you are here! Hugs, Pat