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Re: topic 3 -- jamie falzone, 14:06:27 03/07/02 Thu
>Every civilization to come down the pike has visions
>of lasting for a thousand years. This is especially
>true of the Romans. Investigate why the romans were
>so successful for so long and what finally caused
>their downfall. Compare this to any more modern
>culture to see if there are any reasons why the more
>modern civilizations are not able to LAST. Use
>specifics when making your arguement.
Rome was obviously a very powerful empire at its height in power. However, as most of the other empires we will learn about, it had its problems and ultimately fell.
The Romans were so successful for so long because they were able to conquer their enemies and create a peaceful, stable society. The Etruscans became the leaders of Rome and made it the richest and most prominent city-state. I think that some good elements in the success of Rome were the customs, skills, and cultural aspects of life that the people developed. The Romans developed the idea of governmental practices, helping to set order and rule in the community. Rome fought many battles and won. Part of what made Rome successful in the military aspects was that the Romans would get revenge on anyone and everyone so they would easily rid of enemies.
The economy began to fail as well as the relations citizens had with one another and the governmental bodies. Because of the different social statuses, the people argued over power, causing civil war. This tore up parts of Rome and was a factor in bringing the society down the drain. The Romans are known for loving life and living it to its fullest and I think that while they were relaxing and enjoying life, their society fell apart infront of their eyes. Rome did have leaders that did their duties well however, not all of the emperors were wonderful and this brought the society down even further. I think that it is important for the leaders of societies to be strong and sure and some of the Roman emperors were not this way and so people rebelled against the government and other governmental issues arose. Ultimately, Rome fell and other cultures and societies took over control.
In 581, China reunited under the Sui dynasty. The government became more powerful and the Great Wall was rebuilt thus helping rebuild the spirits of the Chinese peoples. As the T'ang dunasty gained power, the armies in China began to protect from nomadic people and China was safe from invaders. The emperor was the person in charge in the Chinese society and the people were divided into parts with different color apparel, each group loyal to the king. Some peasants, however, rebelled because of land shares and the rulers did their best to keep the bureaucrats from being too powerful. The population grew and China was becoming very powerful. Rulers understood and accepted the peolple's religious choices and treated different religions equally. However, the T'ang dynasty began to fall as attacks were being focused on China. The government declined, dynasties struggled, and the T'ang dynasty fell in 906.
All cultures and societies have a beginning and an end and many different elements influence how these happen. Mostly, the problems that brought both Rome and China down were economic problems, emperors/rulers were too powerful or caused people to rebel, and fighting was happening both inside and outside of the cities. When one society falls, another is at its height, every society has its ups and downs.
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Re: topic 3 -- Marie Grunbeck, 15:17:32 03/07/02 Thu
I believe that there are many aspects of the Roman Empire that contribute to the reasons why they lasted so long. Some of these reasons include the way they setup their government, how they conquered other people, and the levels of social status in their society. The Roman government began with the Etruscan rule, however the Romans soon got sick of the Etruscans ruling them, so they got rid of them. Once the Etruscans were gone, the Romans formed two social classes, the Plebians and Patricians. I believe that the formation of these two groups helped make Rome stronger. This is because with the Patricians taking over the government, the rest of the Romans had someone to guide them to living civilized lives in an organized society. Even though this unbalanced power between the Patricians and Plebians later led to civil wars, it helped Rome at first by getting its government functioning well. Another thing that helped Rome become an imperial power is the way that they conquered other civilizations. Rome's army was very strong and was led by people who knew what they were doing. This enabled Rome to seize and take over almost the entire Mediterranean region, which is a major factor, is their empire's success. One more aspect of the Roman Empire that enabled them to be successful is the way that they dealt with problems in society. Although their leaders may seem very cruel because of some of the things they did to those who disobeyed laws, this idea of harsh punishment is essential for a civilization to survive. These are just some of the main things that helped the Romans develop from a small city-state into an imperial power. Although the Roman's success lasted for about a thousand years, it eventually began to downfall. The start of their downfall began with the introduction of slaves into their society. After the Third Punic War, the Romans enslaved many Carthaginians as slaves in Rome. With the new cheap labor, large estates started producing great amounts of the crops that used to be produced only by small farmers. This caused the farmers to "go out of business" and they were forced to move into cities. However, they could not find work in the cities either because slaves were also hired to work in businesses and factories. This left the dismayed farmers poor and not having anything to do with their lives, which eventually caused a great outbreak of boredom in the Roman society. The fact that the majority of Romans did not have anything do to all day long, led to a great changes in their lives. The “traditional values of discipline, self-sacrifice, and devotion to the republic were lost”, and this began to lead Rome into its decline. As the Roman civilization began to spiral down to its end, many people tried to help bring it back. However these attempts all eventually failed and only helped to further weaken the Roman Empire. Finally, in the 400's A.D., the Germans took advantage of the falling Empire and succeeded in taking over Rome's civilization to finally end its existence.
I believe that more modern cultures are not able to last as long as the Romans because no one has the patience or will to do so anymore. After watching how much time and effort the Romans put into keeping its civilization from falling, other cultures did not think it was worth the effort to keep their own civilizations alive for such a long time. As time has gone on, people no longer use as much intelligence with political matters and are afraid to take as many harsh measures as the Romans did, in fear of rebellion. However it is easy for one to see that in the case of the Romans, harsh measures were the way to go. Although Rome eventually fell, it is the only civilization ever to last a thousand years, so matter what the reasons are for its decline, the reasons for its survival are much more important.
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Re: topic 3 -- Kristen Berard, 15:40:03 03/07/02 Thu
Romans were so successful for a long time. The legendary date of the founding of Rome was 753 BC. The accounts of this period have come down covered with such a mass of myth and legend that few things from this period can be proved true. Following this period, when a republic was established, Rome became a world power and emerged as an empire with extensive boundaries. Rome was said to have been founded by Latin colonists from a nearby city in ancient Latium. The legendary date of the founding was 753 BC; it was credited to Romulus and Remus, the twin sons of Rhea Silvia, a vestal virgin. Later legend carried the ancestry of the Romans back to the Trojans and their leader Aeneas, whose son Ascanius, or Iulus, was the founder and the first king of Alba Longa.
The Romans were successful for so long because they were a smart people. They had a strong government and had armies that were so strong that it didn't matter who were leading the army it was still strong.
Rome had come to a downfall after about 1250 years. The downfall started when Rome received to many cheap slaves and a lot people no longer had work. Rome reached the end of its downfall when the last Western Roman emperor, Romulus Augustulus, was overthrown by the mercenary Herulian leader Odoacer in about 493 AD.
The Middle Ages was another civilization that didn't survive. It was period in Europe dating from the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West, around the fifth century, to the 15th century. No one definitive event marks the end of antiquity and the beginning of the Middle Ages. Although during this period the loose confederation of tribes began to unite into kingdoms, virtually no trace of government existed, and political and economic development was local in nature. Regular commerce had ceased almost entirely, although the money economy never entirely vanished.
The only universal European institution was the church, and even there, a division of authority was the rule; all power within the church chain of command was in the hands of local bishops. Cultural activity during the early Middle Ages consisted primarily in appropriating and systematizing the knowledge of the past. By the year 1050, Europe stood on the verge of an exceptional period of development. The era of migrations had ended, and Europe experienced the continuity and active growth of a settled population. Town life, and with it regular and large-scale trade and commerce, was revived.
The downfall of the Middle Ages was in the late Middle Age. Conflict and dissolution characterized the late Middle Ages. The struggle for domination between church and state became a fixture of European history for the next several centuries. Towns and cities, continuing to grow in size and prosperity, began to strive for political self-control, and the urban conflict became internal as well, as various classes and interests vied for control.
There is a similarity between the downfall of the Romans and the Middle Ages. Both ended over control of power. In Rome, it was that there was so many different groups fighting for power. In the Middle Ages, it was that the towns and cities wanted their own power. That is what I think causes a lot of downfalls of past civilizations. It seems to be obvious that this pattern of being a large empire then beginning to downfall after trouble with division of power will continue in centuries to come.
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Re: topic 3 -- Brad Nock, 16:30:51 03/07/02 Thu
There are a lot of things that contributed to the downfall of the Roman empire. These can be compared to events and actions that led to the downfall of more modern civilizations. The main reason for Rome’s downfall was its inability to defeat the Teutonic tribes that lived on the boundaries of Rome’s territory. There were also more minor reasons such as slavery, heavy taxes and the feebleness of some of the emperors. When the Huns came into Europe from Asia they pushed the Teutonic tribes into Roman territory and the Romans struggled to keep them from taking over Rome. The Huns were defeated but the Teutonics still threatened the Romans and in 476 A.D. Rome fell to the Teutonics.
This can be compared to the fall of the U.S.S.R. The U.S.S.R. fell due to the governments lack of ability to keep order in the territory. The government failed to fulfill its promises for a perfect life and didn’t properly deal with social problems. There were also economic problems and failure of the government to communicate with the citizens. These things led to the downfall of the U.S.S.R. and similar problems with governments have led to the downfalls of other civilizations.
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Re: topic 3 -- Kelly Sargente, 17:13:53 03/07/02 Thu
I believe that the Romans were so sucessful for such a long period of time because of their government, and I believe this is the same thing that also caused their downfall.
The Romans had set up a government in which laws that were made by them were written down. These laws were written on what was called the 12 Tablets. By doing this their was no way there could be a misunderstanding of the laws and people couldn't make up what the law said. Their government also had consuls who were elected each year. The Roman government was the beginning of a Republic.
I also consider this to be their downfall because everyone at the time became so obssesed with getting power that they'd kill one another for it. At one point in Roman history they had 28 emporers in a period of 23 years. Everyone became greedy. This caused there to be a confusion amongst people. There became absolutely no control. Constantly there were wars breaking out for power and control of the Roman civilzation.
I found that during the Middle Ages also there was a high amount of people struggling to gain power and control.
There were wars also were people had fought for power.
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Re: topic 3 -- Ryan Maclachlan, 17:57:09 03/07/02 Thu
The Romans were the most powerful civilization of the western world and in its day, probably of the world (I have no information on Chinese or Mongolian civilizations' flourishing dates). The Romans were rarely in danger of being attacked with serious dangers to their society because their army was tremendously powerful and well-organized. However, these are the external workings of the empire which did not prevent the people from breaking apart. The governmental part of this was initially the early republic. When the plebians ended up rebelling in 471 B.C. by not joining the army, Roman patricians quenched their thirst for participation by adding the tribunes to the republic. Their only duty was to prevent laws from being passed that would hurt the plebians by use of the veto. Therefore, the plebians really had no basis for complaint as far as not being involved in government because, they were. This is a good lesson which the British Empire should have taken note to with regards to the famous American complaint. Back with Rome though, the plebians also had the Assembly of Tribes which was an assembly of themselves, thirty-five plebians groups. The Twelve Tables further finalized the fact that the patricians did not always get their way. This lack of supreme power all in one location allows for a happier people, which is more likely to stick together. When Rome ran into trouble where the plebians were starting to rebel at a local level and the security of the nation staying as one was threatened, a new leader always seemed to step up to the plate, ready to take on the problem. In this situation, Marius did and passed laws for the common people. Due to the fact that there had been vast numbers of slaves from Carthage many people were out of jobs, but entertainment existed. The development of organized entertainment allowed the poor Roman citizens to have something to look foward to, this something also kept them quiet about problems like slavery. Had the people nothing to do or eat, the slavery may have been deleted or possibly the government overthrown due to the lack of available jobs. The first welfare system was also devised to allow the Romans to avoid a governmentally dangerous effect of angry, starving citizens. Skipping much time, we arrive in the existence of Augustus, the first emperor of Rome. He modified the officials selection system, by basing it on ability rather than relation. This leads to mentally stronger officials who can accomplish their jobs efficiently and effectively. However, as advanced as Rome was, they had not yet devised a more advanced military system which would maintain their stronghold. In addition, the Germanic tribes had been consistently gaining power which leads to a more difficult defense. This defense was weakened consistently in addition to political instability with no order to how the leader should be determined. The economy also started a decline ending Rome's great wealth. The near constant attacks from the Germanic peoples kept the army very busy. The political instability lead to the division of Rome into two seperate empires, this weakened the empire far more. Finally, the Germanic general Odoacer took over Rome and was able to overthrow the emperor without establishing a replacement leading to the recognized end of the Romans as 476A.D.
The more modern civilization of the Inca had not been able to last as soon as the Spanish invaders arrived on their soil. The Incans were very well organized and dealt with groups of problem conquered nations people well, by sending them to long controlled Incan territories. The problem with the Incan civilization was that they depended too much on their one leader (depositism government) which in turn caused their demise. The Spanish came in and took over their leader Atahulpa by surprise in 1532. Although there is contoversy as to whether Atahulpa knew of this surprise and why his defense was not better planned because he knew the noisy Spanish were in the area. Nonetheless, when Atahulpa was taken captive, the rebellions was small and unorganized. The Spanish would have had no chance if the entire nation had rebelled as one because there were only 177 Spanish men and well over 2 million Incas. However, the rebellions were small and surpressed by the Spanish due to their superior weaponry. Until 1569, the Spanish had been fighting the Incan rebellions, until they were all surpressed. Due to the lack of education, when the Spanish taxed the world out of the Incas, they did not rebel.
As far as similarities go, both empires fell due to an outside force. However, the Romans fell to a larger groups of forces attacking frequently. In addition, they suffered from internal problems leading to their downfall. On the other hand, the Incans were fairly strong when it came to leaders, although Atahulpa had just beaten his brother to take control of the Incan Empire. The Incan Empire was still strong, they were defeated due to some good outside tactics and curious internal failings within their own government -- much different from what the Romans had. The Romans were losing the respect of the people, where the Incans just didn't seem to acknowledge the existence of the far outnumbered enemy. The Romans and the Incas were quite different systems, but the Roman decline was inevitable, while the Incan downfall should not have occured as suddenly as it did.
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Re: topic 3 -- Jean Ritucci, 07:52:55 03/08/02 Fri
>Every civilization to come down the pike has visions
>of lasting for a thousand years. This is especially
>true of the Romans. Investigate why the romans were
>so successful for so long and what finally caused
>their downfall. Compare this to any more modern
>culture to see if there are any reasons why the more
>modern civilizations are not able to LAST. Use
>specifics when making your arguement.
I beleive that the reason that the Roman civilization lasted for so long was becuase they had a very strong government and they had rulers that ruled for long periods of time, so the emperors were able to "break-in" the government....(just testing...not my real answer)
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Re: topic 3 -- Jean Ritucci, 07:53:58 03/08/02 Fri
>Every civilization to come down the pike has visions
>of lasting for a thousand years. This is especially
>true of the Romans. Investigate why the romans were
>so successful for so long and what finally caused
>their downfall. Compare this to any more modern
>culture to see if there are any reasons why the more
>modern civilizations are not able to LAST. Use
>specifics when making your arguement.
I beleive that the reason that the Roman civilization lasted for so long was becuase they had a very strong government and they had rulers that ruled for long periods of time, so the emperors were able to "break-in" the government....(just testing...not my real answer)
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Re: topic 3 -- Colin Roux, 09:21:30 03/08/02 Fri
The Romans led one of the longest lasting successful civilizations known to man. Many don't give the Romans credit for their own civilization because they were known to copy other aspects of other civilizations. Although this does hold true, that can't possibly be the main reason why they survived for so long at the power and control they did, otherwise the civilizations they copied would have also lasted just as long.
The Romans did copy other civilizations; such as the structure of their buildings which they obtained from the Greeks. They used other civilization's inventions and made them better. But one of the bigger reasons why the Romans were successful for such a long period of time was their significant form of organization.
Unlike other civilizations of its time, Rome worked with a base 10 number system. They used this number system to help set up their military. The unique way that the Romans used to set up their army enabled them to send a message quickly from one officer to the next. Their military grew and became more powerful enabling Rome to take over many territories. They may have been led to do so by their nature. The Romans always wanted to get even, and they did.
At the time, the popular form of government was a monarchy. One person, a king, ruled over his people. Rome did use this form of government, but they did change it when they realized it wouldn't work out as well. They became a Republic so that more people were involved and one single person didn't make all the decisions for the empire.
Another major factor that helped Rome survive as long as it did was how they disciplined those for breaking the law. Although some may argue that the punishments were harsh, it was needed so that others wouldn’t follow the same execution ending path. Their form of punishment probably wouldn’t work out as well today, but for its time it was essential in order to keep a civilization from falling.
The Roman Empire didn't fall for one specific reason. Like most failures, many different lapses led to its eventual downfall. First of all, there was much political instability. In a short period of 28 years there were 23 emperors. The Romans economy was also severely affected. The same soil and minerals had been being used for the same farming for years and eventually turned to no good. Because they also spent most of the money on the military, they had to raise taxes. Those who couldn’t pay the higher taxes just up and left. This caused prices of goods to rise and this was simply too much for the Romans to handle. They eventually fell completely when they suffered from invasions from the Germans.
The United States can be compared to the Romans because of their status in the world. Although we are one of the most advanced countries, any other country could easily take over the world like the Romans did because we all share pretty much the same technology. Hopefully the U.S. will last as long as the Romans and be as prosperous and by the way we’re headed I believe it is entirely possible.
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Re: topic 3 -- Adam Shifrin, 12:15:25 03/08/02 Fri
The Romans had a great and powerful empire. They had a dream that they would last for a thousand years. They were started by thieves but became the unltimate power. Their downfall was started by one group of people, slaves. Their slaves made them lazy. They had nothng to do but go and watch the games at the colloseum. the Romans had no income and they were bored out of thier minds. The reason they lasted for so long was their organization. Thier government and thier army were so well organized that they could have total morons on top and the system would still run. But the system finally broke down after a series of horrible emperors starting with Caligula. most of these emperors were murdered because they were envied by others. This allowed a chance for the barbarians to attack and kill off the romans.
More modern civilizations didn't have the organization that the romans had. You can compare the United States to the Romans. We are the most powerful nation in the world. Th one problem with the US is that we make people angry which I believe in the end will cause our downfall.
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Re: topic 3 -- THE Tim Carson, 12:39:10 03/08/02 Fri
Rome lasted for so long because it was unchallenged by any other civilization. It was unchallenged, it had the strongest military, culture, and government. At Rome's peak which was a great one, it might have been assumed that they would rule as the most influential civilization forever, however, they didn't. Rome eventually fell for many reasons. Since Rome was the strongest country, its leader must have been very strong and important. The power the emperor had was infinite. So many people wanted to be in that position, they cheated, killed, lied, and were forced to be evil and competitive to get what they wanted, which was the most powerful position in the world. The key word is "power". Rome gained so much power, it slowly destroyed itself because its citizens became dishonest and power-hungry. People would break laws to get what they wanted, and if laws are broken, the government becomes essentially powerless. Rome's destruction came from within itself, not from another culture conquering it. This is the very reason that eutopian societies do not function well for a long time. People are ambitious and want to excel in life. Modern dictatorships, like Iraq and Cuba, who appoint one person in charge of both the government and military, are sure for eventual disaster because that is too much power to keep balanced. Thankfully, they do not issue the dictator of those countries religious power as well. However, political and military influence are plenty to desroy a nation. This allows the dictator to justify military violence with polotics, and to pass laws because people are scared of the military and are afraid to object. Today, these countries are ignored as far as trade, and although they seem to be functioning well, in maybe ten or twenty years, they will eventually fall, because, after all, power corrupts...:)
Love,
Tim
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Re: topic 3 -- Tom O'Brien, 12:40:55 03/08/02 Fri
>Every civilization to come down the pike has visions
>of lasting for a thousand years. This is especially
>true of the Romans. Investigate why the romans were
>so successful for so long and what finally caused
>their downfall. Compare this to any more modern
>culture to see if there are any reasons why the more
>modern civilizations are not able to LAST. Use
>specifics when making your arguement.
The Roman Empire was one of the most powerful, respected and long lasting civilizations to ever exists. I believe there were many reasons that enabled the Romans to last for such a long time. Several of theses reasons included their powerful yet disciplined army, their extremely well organized government and the people of the empire. Several reasons that led to the downfall of Rome were its inability to stop the Teutonics from invading Rome, slavery and heavy taxes. A modern day society that can be compared to the Romans is the French.
The first reason why the Romans lasted as long as they did is because of their extremely powerful army. This army enabled them to conquer practically whoever they wanted. Not only would they conquer a civilization they would destroy it so that there was no possible way for the civilization to rebuild. One example of this is the Punic Wars in which the Romans destroyed Carthage. After the first two Punic Wars the Romans had sufficiently beaten their opponents. However that was not enough for them. They started the Third Punic War in order to completely destroy Carthage. This enabled the Romans to take control of the entire Mediterranean area. Also since the Romans made it impossible for civilizations to rebuild they were forced to join the Romans, which added more civilians, which lead to a bigger army. If the Romans had not have had such a powerful army I do not believe they would have lasted as long as they could. Another thing that helped Rome last was its extremely well organized government. At first their were two social classes in Rome, Patricians and Plebians. The Patricians were the richer of the two. The Patricians ran the government while the Plebians performed other essentials. Even though more groups were added and the system was changed I believe that having these two groups with their own separate jobs helped Rome tremendously. Even though later others were aloud to govern the Patricians created a government for Rome that was extremely well thought out and efficient. If Rome had not of had this type of government I do not believe that there is any chance of it surviving one thousand years. One more thing that helped the Romans last for so long was the citizens of the empire. These citizens did not have the same principles that we have now, this helped them last for so long. For example is the Romans did not like someone or saw someone as a threat they would kill them before they had a chance to act. Nowadays this type of action would be frowned upon. However killing someone before they have a chance to act against definitely helped the Romans survive as long as they did. If the people back then had seen this as incorrect then it would not have continued and Roman would have fell sooner.
One cause of the Roman downfall was their inability to stop foreign armies from invading their empire. If the Roman army had been able to stop foreign armies near the end of their civilization then the Roman Empire would not have been taken over. This would definitely have prolonged their civilization. Another thing that caused the downfall of the Romans was slavery. When slaves arrived in the Roman Empire big farms and factories were created. Thus putting the individually owned business out of business. The civilians who were formally hard at work during the day were now board out of their minds. Now that everyone was board all day long they lost all their morals about what is right and what is wrong. Thus leading Rome to its decline.
A modern day civilization that can be compared to Rome is the French. Back in the time of the Revolutionary war the French owned much of America. However the lost most of it to the Britains and the United States during the French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War. If the French army had been able to fend of either of these two countries then there would have been a better chance of the French controlling more of America. Since this did not happen the French were only given a piece of America and finally they were completely kicked out of America.
In conclusion, several things that enabled the Roman Empire to last so long was its army, its government and the morals of its people. Also several things that led to the downfall of Rome was its inability to keep foreign invaders out of Rome, slavery and high taxes. Also a modern day civilization that Rome can be compared to is France.
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Re: topic 3 -- Skyler Chick, 12:42:31 03/08/02 Fri
During the time of the Romans, they were the most powerful civilization around the Mediterranean region. Like all civilizations, the Romans had a vision of lasting for a thousand years, and succeeded. The Romans were able to last for a thousand years because of their government, social classes, revengefulness, and their thirst to conquer all surrounding lands.
For the first five hundred years of their existence, Rome started as a Republic and later reformed its government into an empire. The government supplied a strong and well-trained army. Because of Rome’s thirst to conquer surrounding lands, they often succeeded. The Punic wars were mainly in the favor of the Romans. Although the first and second Punic wars were started by the Carthaginians, The third and final Punic war began due to the Romans. This last war was started out of revenge. The Romans crossed the Mediterranean and over to Carthage in northern Africa. There the killed the men and took the women and children back to Rome as slaves. In addition, the Romans salted the fields of Carthage so that it would be impossible to grow anything for many years.
Because people were now afraid of the gruesome war tactics of the Romans, many regions sided with Rome. One example was Greece. This was a good thing on their part because the people of Greece had little worry of Rome attacking them. This also gave Rome more land to add to its empire.
Another factor that helped contribute to Rome’s success is the social classes consisting of the Patricians and the Plebians. Although the differences between these two groups led to civil war, it helped Rome set up a government to keep them on their feet. Government was a very important thing to lead to the success of a civilization. When Rome became an empire it succeeded because of its limitations and laws on people. Many of the Emperors seemed cruel but because people were limited to the things they could do, there was a lower risk of rivalry and revolts. In addition, the government was well organized with the first five emperors of Rome but the next twenty-three years after the death of the last of the first five emperors, Rome had twenty-eight different emperors during that twenty-three year period. Sometimes there were more than one emperor at a time. This caused great disorganization in the government and later led to the downfall of the Roman Empire.
Many of the more modern civilizations were not able to succeed in lasting for a thousand years. I think that disorganization in the government is a cause of this. Also, I think that because many laws in modern civilization are in small favor of the citizens, there is more room for disagreement. I also think that many kings and emperors of modern civilizations have too much power and should have allowed some to the public, while still keeping it limited.
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Re: topic 3 -- Colin Martin, 14:29:33 03/08/02 Fri
The Romans were so successful and actualy did succeed in lasting for 1000 years. They had their up and their downs but mainly they were able to keep standing. When they ran into a situation were the Emperor would be in trouble or in some way hurt or slow down the progress of rome, such as when Ciliqula was in power and he started ot go crazy. He would stage public assasinations of people just for the entertainment. Yet the government kept on moving because it was set up so well. Rome would enter a political problem or struggle and would continue to keep the empire going. One of the first things that I think led to the downfall of Rome was slavery. Every now and then a group of slaves would try to revolt. This is always a threat and can not be good. Sparticus led one of the greatest. He gathered slaves arevolted. This lasted for about 3 years or so. In America's earlier days there were slave revolts that were luckey to have lasted 3 days let alone 3 whole years. But unlike America, Rome never stoped slavery and it continued untill Rome's end. One key thing that led to their downfall more towards the end of their rein was the Teutonic tribes who were positioned outside of Rome and became more and more powerful untill Rome could no longer hold them off. Another thing is, back then there were very few areas of the world that cometitive contries were even civilized. Therefore there were very little competitive powers that would want to take over Rome, especaily once Rome reached its full size and completly surounded the meditaranian. Compared to today when the entire planet is full of countries that would love to be known as the most powerful civilization of its time. A modern culture that rose up and fell would be England. England before America was even around was the most powerful country in the world. People will argue that France was, but I'm sure that it wasn't. England had an Anarchy with a King's and Queens. England came over and took over most of the eastern shore of North America. They called the land America. In time over a coarse of about 150 years the American colonies of Britan rose in power and population. Eventualy the colonies were sick of England so they tried to leave. This spart the Revolutionary War. The colonies won over the greatest power in the world. This showed that England would not last forever. They slowly went down hill but never quite fell, they just slowly became less powerful than the countries around them.
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Re: topic 3 -- Dave, 14:48:05 03/08/02 Fri
The Romans were thinkers. Their government plan was almost flawless. That is the main reason they sustained their power for so long. This downfall cannot be blamed on one event. There were plenty of minor faults in the Roman society that eventually led to their downfall. Although this process was very gradual, there were a few events that eventually ruined the Romans. Such as slavery and poor leadership by some of the emperors.
In the beginning of their reign, the Romans seemed like they would rule forever. It seemed as though they were invincible. The Romans knew they were an intimidating force so they conquered every little weakling civilisation they could find. This worked for quite some time. And then came the slaves and then went the Romans flawless society. A few cases of bad leadership tossed them in the trash. They were much like the French, who seemed to have a good empire going until bad leadership killed their reign as well. The Romans would not have lasted as long if it wasn't for their government which provided other leaders besides the emperors. The government protected the empire from one man ruining it. It took many men over many years to finally force the Romans to throw in the towel.
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Re: topic 3 -- Justin Neel, 20:54:12 03/08/02 Fri
The Romans lasted for so long for several reasons, and if you bear with me, I will list those reasons. One, their government was well liked during it's time, they gave people food and money when they ran out of food and money, they gave people entertainment when they all were bored, and they maintained the military as well. The surrounding civilizations were so incredibly scared because "Romans like to get revenge." No matter who attacked them, the Romans would want to get revenge, and revenge is what they got. And by law, everything that goes up, must come back down, and down they came. They attacked Zama, took the men, women, and children as slaves. They sold the slaves, and by this time, there were so many slaves in the great and amazing Rome that the price of them started to drop drastically, and with the price of slaves dropping, the economy drops. When the economy drops, people get fed up with the government, lose money, lose houses, go bankrupt, government is no longer liked, etc. So then come the emperors, and emperors they were, good old Octavian, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. Some of the emperors were bad, and not liked, but the one liked the worst was Caligula, a bad kid that one. He just completely lost it and started executing people like it was "going out of style." Even his royal guards didn't like him, and nature took its place, and he woke up dead. So the five emperors go by, and more and more, a bunch of them executed, and economy drops, and Rome just comes to a screeching halt, and is no longer on the top. Another reason they stayed on the top for so long was, they would just copy ideas from other civilizations, and make them better, so they kept their city well maintained, and their people entertained, therefore keeping the government liked, and they stayed on top.
Of course this all can be related to several modern cultures, so lets just stick with one, The United States of America perhaps, the great and amazing number one. So we beat the British in a Revolutionary War and gain our independence, big deal, so we defeat Germany twice in two of the two world wars, big deal, we are on top for a while. At this very point, the United State's economy is dropping, it's obvious just by looking at the stock market, and pretty soon, or maybe even now, the government will start to be disliked, people get un happy, nature takes place, people lose homes, people dislike government, government can not deal with people, and the great and amazing's pole position is lost, and civilizations that are rising right now, like Russia, will soon be in power, that is why the Romans stayed on top for so long, and that is exactly what's going to happen to The United States of America.
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Re: topic 3 -- Justin Neel, 06:32:57 03/10/02 Sun
( i dont know if its too late, the first was a quick colloquial draft)
The Romans lasted for so long for several reasons, one of which is that their government was well liked during it's time, they gave people food and money, however when they ran out of food and money, they gave people entertainment. And when the citezens were bored, they maintained the military as well.
The surrounding civilizations were scared because of the roman phylosophy of getting revenge. No matter who attacked them, the Romans would want to get revenge, that is exactly what they got. When the Romans attacked Zama, took the men, women, and children as slaves, and sold the slaves back in Rome. In Rome, at this time, there were so many slaves in Rome, that the price of slaves started dropping. When the price of slaves dropped, the economy dropped, because it was cheaper to employ slaves that didn't as for pay, then pay many roman citezens to work for you. Roman Citezens got fed up with the government, because of lost money, and lost houses. These are not good things, and subsequently, the government is no longer in the people's favor. So then the government changed to a monarchy type structure. They had emperors, and some were, Octavian, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. Some of these emperors were bad, but the one disliked the most was Caligula. He was mentally unstable, and bored, and in a desperate attempt to find humor and entertainment, started executing people left and right. Even and especially his royal guards disliked him. As any polite Roman does unto one they dislike, the guards did to Caligula (they killed him). So the five emperors come and go, and many of them die unnatural deaths. The economy is still dropping, and Rome's culture and society come to a screeching halt. In short, they are no longer on top.
Another reason they stayed on the top for so long was, they would just copy ideas from other civilizations, and make them better, so they kept their city well maintained, and their people entertained, therefore keeping the government liked, and they stayed on top.
These behaviours can be related to several modern cultures, for example: The United States of America. The USA beat the British and gain our independence. The USA survives a vicious civil war, and comes out as one country, proving its strength. They move on to defeat Germany and Japan twice in both of the world wars. The USA is on the top of the world for a while. At this very point, the United State's economy is dropping. It's obvious by the stock market's drops, and soon enough, the government will start to be disliked. Then people will become unhappy, lose homes...ect. Eventually, the great USA's pole position is lost, and civilizations that are rising right now, like Russia, will soon be in power. This is why the Romans stayed on top for so long, and this is exactly what could happen to The United States of America.-Justin
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Re: topic 3 -- Brad Reed, 02:20:46 03/09/02 Sat
The Romans were the only civilization to reach the "ideal" length of time, 1000 years, this happened for many reasons. Some of the reasons are: the Romans were able to "control" what went on in the Senate by electing tribunes. This gave them limited power and it lasted a limited amount of time, until the first triumvirate. Once Caesar took over people were afraid that he would become a supreme ruler or Emperor, so the Senators assassinated him. The second Triumvirate happened and the same thing happened, with Octavian forcing Marc Antony to his death. This created the first Emperor: Caesar Agustus (Caesar the Majestic One, a.k.a. Octavian). The transformation from Republic to Empire was not such a bad thing because the people liked their Emperor along with the protection and services he created. After Agustus' death the Emperors' quality took a nosedive. Particularly, with Caligula, who was not sane and had one of the shortest rules in history. He lasted less than four years before his personal guards killed him. After Caligula's death the Roman citizens realized that if they had another Emperor this bad they would kill him. Another reason the Roman Empire lasted so long was because of their Army: " never loose to a Roman, for thou shalt loose thine head". Romans always served comeuppance to people that dared challenge the Empire. The downfall of Rome, I think, is directly related to the slave rebellion that was lead by Spartacus. I think this because seeing a line of slaves on the Appian Way, being crucified, would anger people and cause another rebellion. While the Roman Army was busy, the Huns came in right under the Romans' noses. They started to take over before moving in to take over the T'ang, but they failed, and had to move back toward Germany and Italy.
Another long lasting civilization was the Aztecs. They lasted over 500 years and had an average of 60,000 people a day in its capital city, Tenoctitlan. Th Aztecs lasted for a while (more than the 300 year average) because they never tried to start a war to gain land, just defend their land, and acquired more land through business deals. This does not mean that the people were peaceful. They gave regular human sacrifice to keep the good gods strong. The Aztecs also had marvelous architecture, most of which was destroyed long ago, when the Spanish rebuilt Tenoctitlan as Mexico City, in "Espana Nueva" or New Spain. If the Spanish Missionaries and Conquistadors had not come to Mexico, the Aztecs would still have their Empire destroyed, because modern society is not an accepting place and their ways would be considered cruel and savage. Therefore, the downfall of the Aztec Empire was inevitable. The scattered descendants are now a minority in the country they could have ruled.
Mr. Curboy, I am doing this so early in the morning because last night AOL kept disconnecting me and destroying my homework. Also it would not let me access the site
-Brad
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Re: topic 3 -- Jimmy McCumber, 07:27:00 03/09/02 Sat
-----All civilizations on the rise aim to stay on for a thousand years, maybe even longer. Yet so far, the only people able to stay in power for that long have been the Romans. What made them so successful? Why could no one defeat them for so long? And why hasn’t any other culture been able to copy the great empire which grew out of Romulus and Remus’ swampy city, the size of my backyard? Rome used intelligence in spreading their rule, allowed foreign life to go on without great interruption, and had very well organized armies and governments.
-----All of Rome’s small early triumphs were well-thought out and executed. First, to ensure the ongoing life of Rome, the Romans abducted the Sabine woman and married them. They caught the Sabine men without their weapons, and when the angry men returned, the newlywed woman begged them not to start war and cause them to lose their fathers and husbands in one bloody battle. After breaking out of Etruscan rule, Rome slowly conquered the entire Italian peninsula, bit by bit. When several Greek city-states in southern Italy were infighting, Rome helped turn them against each other, let them do the fighting, then conquered the weakened cities.
-----While Rome gained control over a good part of Europe and Asia, life still went on as normal in areas far away from Rome. This was because Rome’s conquests were not always bloody. If the country submitted to Roman rule, it became more of a forced treaty. While areas such as Palestine and Egypt had to pay taxes and fight in the army, they were ordinarily allowed to keep their customs and the general public was not greatly affected. This made the people much less likely to revolt because they were not angry in the Romans’ treatment of them.
-----Octavian became the first Roman emperor and named himself Augustus. He ruled for many years, one of the few emperors to be so fortunate. To ensure that the empire would remain stable under the tumultuous reign of future emperors, he set up a much better government for Rome that
would last longer than he. He regulated taxes. He chose officials not by birth, but by their talents. This led to a much stronger and better organized government. The Roman army was also extremely well organized. It worked like a pyramid. A general could pass on orders to his tribunes, who would pass it on to members of their cohort, or group. Centurions would pass it one to their ten decurions, and the decurions would finally instruct their ten soldiers or
legionaries. This order allowed for much more organized fighting, and to better discipline. Few soldiers abandoned a Roman army camp. Their fellow soldiers wouldn’t let them. For it would be the other soldiers who would have to suffer the consequences of your misdeed. Therefore, the soldiers would police each other while the generals handled more important business, such as war.
-----Why did other cultures fail to accomplish what the Romans did? Let us take a look at the empire of Uzbekistan. Though never a world superpower, they lasted about three hundred years before being conquered. The area of Uzbekistan was taken first by the Persians, then by Alexander the Great, then by Genghis Khan. In the 16th century, it was finally taken over by the Uzbek people, who retained control until they were defeated by Russia in the late-1800s.
-----Uzbekistan just wasn’t ready to confront the superpower forming above them in Russia. They had never set out to conquer many other areas, and didn’t have the people or weapons of the Soviet Union. When faced with such a large empire trying to conquer them, they fought well, but
never had a chance. One by one their big cities were taken and the Uzbek people were submitted to Soviet rule for what would last a century.
-----One thing that Uzbekistan was and is good at is the ability to be opportunistic. Right after the Russian revolution, with the Soviet Union weakened, Uzbekistan attempted to break free. However, in 1917, they were crushed and remained part of the USSR. They were forced to keep waiting and looking for their next chance. That chance came in 1990. With the United States and the cold war again weakening the Soviet Union, Uzbekistan became the first central Asian country to break away from the USSR, starting the destruction of the Soviet Empire. Now nearly twelve
years into their new life as a nation, Uzbekistan has the full support and aid of their former oppressors in Russia. Who knows what excitement the next three hundred or maybe even thousand years hold for this nation, and others aiming for the top, or struggling to hold on. Will they learn from the Romans, or meet the same fate every ancient empire has met? We shall see.
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Re: topic 3 -- Chris Zegel, 08:10:32 03/09/02 Sat
The Romans were the strongest civilization in the world for a few reasons. For one, they had an incredibly strong and organized army. With an army that was as effective as it was large, the Romans were able to conquer numerous lands, thus adding to their empire one people at a time. After a while, the enemies of Rome would grow more hatred for the civilization, but while Rome was so strong, these other peoples could not act on their desires to conquer the great empire. In addition to a strong military force, Rome had an extremely efficient government. Through forming the Triumvirate, the Romans were able to spread power evenly, avoiding a tyrannical rule. However, the government of the Romans was ultimately corrupted, and contributed greatly to the downfall of the empire. The corruption began with the formation of the Triumvirate, where power was basically distributed to opposite forces, with the much weaker tie breaking vote in the middle of the two. This eventually led to dissention among the leaders, and so an Emperor was finally declared as the sole ruler of Rome. Having a leader with absolute power works well if the leader is just and kind, but the Romans possessed rulers with cruel and bizarre streaks. There were enormous amounts of underhand schemes plotted to tip the balance of power in favor of a favorite son or nephew, and this led to paranoia and distrust among the Roman nobles. Incest seemed to be a lingering problem, and the family tree of the Ceasers seems to be a little bit off, probably contributing to the insanity of some of Rome's rulers. Finally, the office of the Emperor collapsed completely, and chaos ensued.
While the Romans managed to actually stick around for one thousand years, civilizations in the Middle Ages weren't as lucky. Perhaps one of the major differences in Rome and more recent societies was its unity. Rome was one empire, and under that empire it thrived and prospered. The different peoples in the Middle Ages were unrelated, with individual people, leaders, and customs. The Romans managed to unite under one power to achieve a greater good, while during the Middle Ages every individual kingdom was competing individually with the others for power. This way of going about things seems to have hindered the complete evolution of a civilization.
Note: My first attempt at posting, at like 2 AM last night, didn't succeed. I'm lucky that I had my writing saved!
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