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Date Posted: 19:27:31 06/18/02 Tue
Author: Doug
Subject: Re: Acts 2 - "gift of the Holy Spirit"
In reply to: Jay Dee 's message, "Re: Acts 2 - "gift of the Holy Spirit"" on 11:09:02 06/18/02 Tue

Hello Jay Dee,

You gave me quite a bit to go through. I don't believe I have time to hit every point but I will get to your points as I go. I was hoping to just do some small "chunks" rather than lengthy posting and reading. I belive it would be more beneficial, don't you? Just so you know, I am taking it easy. I am very easy going, brother. I do not believe you are "dissing" me (as they say) and I am not offended at all. I am still enjoying our discussion. However, you still have not proven your assertions concerning my alleged "presuppositions" based on the context of Joel 2/Acts 2.

I stated that I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit are not the same thing - they are not. Again, the context of Joel2/Acts 2 bears this out. I believe I have shown, at least twice now, what the gift of the Holy Spirit is based upon its own context as found in Joel 2/Acts 2.

I would encourage you to read again what I posted relative to Acts 2/Joel 2 so far. As I have state numerous times so far, the gift of the Holy Spirit is defined for us based upon the context of Joel 2/Acts 2. And, again, there is absolutely no reason to hunt and peck at other passages in order to try to squeeze in the traditional view of the personal indwellers.

As for your exegesis of Luke, I enjoyed it. Couldn't agree more. But, what does that have to do with us today? Nothing! Showing me the presence of the Spirit and how worked in the early portions of Luke is good, but not necessary for our discussion. I commented on this last night but you have not responded. Please refer back to my June 17th comments on these passages. Briefly, the passages you have quoted all deal with the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit, especially in the life of Christ. Again, I ask you, what does that have to do with me, you and all Christians today? I will simply say, nothing at all!

As for Luke 11:13, you are making conclusions, otherwise you would have responded to my thoughts initial thoughts on that topic in my previous (June 17th post). Again, I have shown that Luke 11:13 is not dealing with any alleged indwelling, literal or otherwise. As for Luke 12:11-12, this was a promise to the disciples, then and there, and to them alone. How could you possibly yank it from its context and assume it applies to us? This is similar to John 14-17, in which the context is all about the apostles and does not apply to us. I would caution against the use of anachronism.

Again, I have already discussed the background of Acts 2. Perhaps you did not read my prior posts in this thread. I would encourage you to do so. Briefly, Joel promised the an out pouring (miraculous manifestation of the Spirit). It came on Pentecost. Peter said, "this is that." The "this" was the miraculous happenings (out pouring). The "that" is the promise of Joel. Again ,the language of Acts 2 does not say "will pour out His Spirit." The original language says that He wil "pour out from His Spirit." I discuss this in a previous post as well but had no comments. Acts 2:18 likewise says the exact smae thing. The word used is "apo" and in the genitive case it means "separation," that is, "away from." He would pour "out from (apo)" His Spirit. The language says one thing but you are saying another. You are hastily leaving out the little word "apo." In fact, the Septuagint also declares the same language use for Joel 2:28-32. Therefore, the language is absolutely consistant. So, you idea of what God would pour out is vastly differnt from what God actually did pour out. As for Acts 2:33, again, I would encourage you to take the time to read what I had posted previously in this thread.

As for Acts 2:38-39, please see my previous post. All I will say at this point is that the promise is dealing with nothing but the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit and nothing else. He is not dealing with any indwelling at all here. Joel 2 is all about the miraculous and so it Acts 2. What Peter is describing is what Mark describes in Mark 17-20. This would come by the laying on of the apostles hands.
If not, why not?

I will deal more with Acts 2:39 later this week. As I said in previous posts, which you need to refresh yourself with, is that this verse is not as inclusive as one might think. I do not believe that this verse, for a moment, teaches all people for all time (posterity). But, be patient, that will come later. Additionally, as I mentioned numerous times before, I am not suggesting that this miraculous endowment of the Spirit was just for the apostles. Joel 2 makes that clear as well as Peter's confirmation in Acts Acts 2.

I see, you are intent on dragging other passages into the mix here. Jay Dee, it is unnecessary to do so. The "full of the Spirit" passages you quote add nothing to the discussion. Those were inspired men and I believe that is all the text is declaring in those passages.

As for Acts 5:32 - who are the obeying ones of the passage? Who were the witnesses? Is he talking about you, me and every other person 20 centuries later? I think not. Luke already made clear who were the witnesses (Acts 1). Further, the language actually says, "the ones now obeying." Moreover, the given of the Spirit is nothing more than what was promised in Acts 2/Joel previously, and that was the miraculous endowment or manifestation of the Spirit. Remember, what was actually given in Acts was not the Spirit Himself, but that which proceeds our from the Spirit. Again, contex, context, context. As I mentioned earlier, if you will read my posts, that this language is a figure of speech called metonymy. As for Acts 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 19. This all the miraclous and has nothign to do with the any indwelling.

However, Acts 8 and Acts 19 actually support my view. They did not receive the Spirit (metonymy - that which comes from the Spirit - the cause for the effect). These folks wer ebaptized yet they had not received the Spirit. This is interesting because so many today teach that you actually get the literal Holy Spirit at baptism. These folks didn't and neither does anyone else. This the gift of the Holy Spirit, the miraculous and has nothing to do with the indwelling.

There were two ways to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, directly and miraculously, and by the laying on of the apostles hands. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was only for the apostles as it was promised only to them and it was administered by Jesus. Peter tells us that Cornelious and his household received a "like gift" - not the same gift as did the apostles. These two occurrences were, of course, miraculous situations and for different purposes. For the apostles, it was to guide them into all truth as they would go into all the world. For Cornelius, it was to declare that God accepts the Gentiles as well into the kingdom. I know some like to say that these two incidents are both baptism of the Spirit, but upon closer inspection, they are not the same thing.

Looking forward to your insights and comments.

Brotherly,
Doug

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