VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 23:20:10 04/06/02 Sat
Author: Richard
Subject: Re: Baptism
In reply to: Jay Dee 's message, "Re: Baptism" on 13:03:03 04/06/02 Sat

Greetings in Christ from rainy Texas,

you said..
I am a member of the church of Christ. Just so you know where I am coming from.

My response, welcome to the club..

you stated

I have studied this time after time, and I don't see any way around it. Baptism is connected with salvation because it is connected with faith and repentance. Passages such as Acts 2:30; 1 Pet 3:21; Col 2:7-20; Mk 16:16; and others all clearly connect Baptism to faith and repentance. Romans 6 along with Colossians 3 are a good exposition of this fact.

My response--I don't have any quarrel with what you are saying..But you are missing a big point about baptism-0-by not looking at the plan and purpose of God in redeeming man and seeing that plan [a] worked through John the Baptist [b] later, in the ministry of Jesus [c] esp in Luke 7:29-30--where baptism--that is an immersion in water in order to have one sins remitted--justifies God and those who do not refuse the counsel of God in their lives.

In the Actual application of Acts 2:36-40--Baptism is the vechicle given to man by God for man to have the forgiveness of one's sins.. Thus it is the outcome of faith--which it should be
we can view baptism in two settings--the message leading to baptism--and the teaching of baptism in the epistles that teach those who have already been immersed..

you said

That we are saved by faith is not the issue. The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by faith in passages such as Romans 3:23-5:1; James 2; Eph 2:8-10; and other passages. The issue is how God wants us to demonstrate our faith "initially." Faith without evidence is no faith at all. Romans 10:9ff show that confession is to be a natural outgrowing of faith. Mark 16:16 is also connects baptism with faith. If it were not of faith, then confession and baptism would be meaningless.

My response--but should we not keep firmly in mind--that God did not leave it up to us as men as to how we decide to demostrate our faith. That makes baptism essential--as that is how it is demostrated an thus it is necessary for man to do.

you asked


Now, what about those cases where people were apparently saved "before" baptism. The issue is not whether baptism is connected with conversion, but whether a person is saved "before" or "after" conversion.

My response--perhaps for you and I this is not an issue but for Rick--it sure enough is an issue and there may be others--There are in scriptures under the new covenant--and if I am wrong here, please feel free to point it out to me--where any person at any time was saved without baptism. And that includes Cornelius and his household.


you stated

After years of growing and studying, I have come to the realization that this is the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is what does God want me to do? One of the things is baptism. It is the ONLY act that is done once in connection to conversion. Repentance happens over and over, confession continues through life, and of course faith is a lifestyle. However, baptism is done ONCE, like a marriage ceremony is done once.

My response--I certainly do not disagree with this at all..

you stated

When it comes to baptism, it is the Lord who does the saving. To view baptism as a mechanism for salvation misses the whole point. The power of salvation is in the Gospel (Rom 1:16). We preach a risen and crucified Christ, not baptism. In Acts 2, Peter didn't mention baptism till the folks asked "what shall we do?" Baptism didn't save them, God saved them.

My response--Let's just think about this a tad--Whether one views baptism in any way--did not the folks on the day of Pentecost viewed baptism as the "mechanism" for being justified. At least 3,000 or so did because that is what they did.

Baptism then is offered as a part of the faith\belief package--and it is offered because Jesus has already offered Grace to every human being o nthe same terms--

Man has to accept God's free gift of grace--by responding with something--and that something is given to us in Acts 2--As believers they were told to:
[1] repent--have a change of heart\mind or to change direction
[2] to be immersed
[a] in the name of Jesus Christ--that is by his power and by his authority
[b] for the remission of one's sins

Yes, it is the Lord who does the saving..but no one is saved unless except one follows the directions given by Christ and the HOly Spirit and God--While Baptism thus is a work of God..man must do it or perish--I believe that we can have both concepts of baptism and indeed should have both concepts..

you stated
No one would have dreamed of trying to separate baptism from conversion. IN the Bible conversions, faith, confession, repentance, and baptism are mentioned. Not all are always mentioned and they are usually in no particular order. There is not a "formula" for salvation. Peter could have said eat mud, and they would have done it.

My response--Why is it then as it is in scripture as you state{and, it is] that men are not doing such in order to be saved? While I am not in strong favor of the five acts of conversion--ONe must start somewhere--granted it may not be with faith in each case or with confession--but it will always end with baptism. And since the one being taught may never know of the five acts to be converted--You and I and other Christians know that--but most of the world does not even care.

Since we know that immersion without some of these other things--esp like faith\belief are worse than useless--in our teaching we seek to produce faith\belief\trust in God--else we know not to continue--right?

you said

The theif on the cross is a prime example of this. Jesus had the power to save. He could see into this man's heart and saved him. The man did not have the ability to demonstrate his faith beyond a mere profession because he was nailed to a cross.


My response--there is a much better solution to the thief on the cross that you over time give consideration to..

In the earthly minstry of Jesus --on several occassions He forgave men\women their sins without benefit of John's baptism--right?

I know this aboout the thief on the cross--he knew a whole lot about Jesus Christ--Whether or not the thief was ever baptized with the baptism of John we will never ever know and it doen'st matter--since while on earth--Jesus has demostrated an ability and willingness to forgive sins without baptism in certain cases..

I also know that the thief died on that cross like fifty day prior to the giving of Acts 2 so there was no way in this world that the thief could of ever ever been under the new covenant..

On the other hand, no one living today lived under that old covenenat--so all men Jews AND Gentiles are to be added to the body of Christ in the same way from Pentecost forward.

What Peter states to Cornelius is worth repeating--consider it carefully--Acts 10:34 (NKJV) Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Now, let's consider you next thought..

Cases of this type are exceptions. Can God save someone without baptism? He "can" because he is God. He can have mercy on whom he will have mercy. However, these are exceptions. Yes, God does make exceptions because he is a gracious God. He does so numberous times in the Old Testament. However, we do not live our life by exceptions. If one person survives a fall from an airplan without a parachute, we should not all go and jump from airplanes.

My response--under the new covenant--If God made just one--just one exception--then that opens the door for every other condemned human being to plead their case. What God did many times in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant is past--Can you find one exception to a person being saved without water immersion from Acts 2 forward. Even Paul the apostle had to be immersed in order to do the Lord's Work.


you stated

Cornelius is another such exception. If God did indeed save them before their baptism, it was because of their faith. It took a miraculous manifestation of the Spirit for Peter to understand that he was to baptize these Gentiles. Peter had a real problem with Gentiles, as did many other Jews (Acts 15; Gal 1-2). I will not argue with God if he makes exceptions. He knows a person's heart, I do not.

My response--1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Yes, we do have the mind of Christ--at least enough of it for our salvation and our living

John 6:68 (NKJV) But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

John 12:47 (NKJV) "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 "For I have not spoken on My own [authority]; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
I will not change what other passages so clearly teach because God makes exceptions to the rule. The "normal" way a person is to "demonstrate" their faith initially is baptism. But it is God who saves. Baptism is neither a meriorious work, nor a efficacious ritual. The sacrifice of Christ is what is efficacious. Faith without action is no faith at all.

We do not find that Cornelius is an exception--when we study baptism and push that understanding of it forward from Acts 2 into Acts ten and knowing that the Gentiles speaking in foreign languages did not save them--how then were they saved>

This is more vital that it seems--because Cornelius represents the Gentiles being grafted onto the salvation process--and it has to be identical to that of the Jews in Acts 2.


you said

When a person asks "what should I do?" AFTER hearing the Gospel of Christ, that he died, was buried, and resurrected, why not give the same answer as Peter did? Nowhere does it say to "ask Jesus into your heart" or anything of the like. The Bible does say that a person needs to turn his life around, state his faith in Jesus as Lord, and be baptized. Then he would recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

My response--again I agree Acts 2 makes it clear that from that time forward thatis the only way in which a man\woman can be justified..

In conclusion--after Pentecost--I can find no exceptions to Acts 2:38 nor can I find where God states that He will make an exception{YES--we both know that He can--but God has planned this from the beginning--and there are absolutely no clues texturally that God will make an exception--In fact, I find from my studies in other areas--that there are no exceptions going to be made by God here concerning salvation,

Richard

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Post a message:
This forum requires an account to post.
[ Create Account ]
[ Login ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-6
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.