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Subject: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
MODERATOR
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Date Posted: 14:06:51 04/18/02 Thu

Grand Theft Auto 3 has dominated the sales rankings in North America for quite some time. Although rumors persist that the series may be headed to Gamecube, there is no confirmation. Silicon Knights, a Nintendo 2nd-party will be releasing Eternal Darkness on June 24. Both are Mature-rated games. Today's question: If Nintendo could have only one (either Grand Theft Auto (NOT EXCLUSIVE) or Eternal Darkness (EXCLUSIVE), which franchise would have a more substantial effect on Gamecube, and why?

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
BradPierce5
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Date Posted: 14:09:17 04/18/02 Thu

Okay folks, we're justing waiting on confirmations from one more person and we'll be able to start the Roundtable.

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[> Subject: Inner-Roundtable #1 Is Now Open.


Author:
MODERATOR
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Date Posted: 10:48:23 04/19/02 Fri

The Roundtable is now open. Feel free to post your thoughts, responses, etc. The Roundtable will be stopped around 7 PM Eastern, unless we need more time on it.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #1 Is Now Open.


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 11:45:12 04/19/02 Fri

That is a very good question, and those who are familiar with my constant pro-GCN rhetoric may be surprised by my answer.

Eternal Darkness is easily my most anticipated game. If I end up going to E3, it will be the first game I wait in line for, even though I know it is only a stripped demo. The combination of epic storyline and revolutionary gameplay elements has me drooling, and if this game delivers on its promises, I think we easily have a classic on our hands.

Grand Theft Auto 3 is a great game. Really, it is a very fun game, and it has almost infinite replay value if you like it. I have friends who started playing it when it came out, and still play it every day. I got bored of it rather quickly, but by bored I mean that I play it and enjoy it and then realize that I just spend 3 hours trying to see if I could get a cop to follow me off of a jump into the river. What am I doing with my life L. As a gamer, I only like to play a game while I have an objective by which I can measure my progress. Grand Theft Auto 3 doesn’t really provide me with that, so I don’t play it much anymore.

So which would have a more substantial affect on GAMECUBE? I think the obvious answer is GTA3, even if it was not exclusive. Here’s why:

[b]Casual Gamers[/b]

Casual gamers probably account for a majority of game sales. There are two things that I think attract casual gamers and create hype. The first is pick-up-and-playability. No need to get into a plot or understand what is going on. Once you learn the “attack” and “drag driver out of car” buttons on GTA3, you can pretty much wreak havoc. When you can see a game at your friend’s house, and try it out, you are more likely to buy it yourself. Games with complicated controls or complex storylines are more one or two person affairs, which is one of the reasons no one was interested in FFX in the story I tell a bit later.

Another thing that attracts casual gamers is some aspect of the game that stands out and grabs their attention, in this case shock value. Face it; kids have basically no morals these days. The worse things are that you simulate happening in a game, the worse gamers will want it. I remember not too long ago, my friend brought over his PS2, and we were playing FFX in my living room (the PS2 now pretty much resides at my house). There were several other people around, not gamers by a long shot, having… refreshing beverages. One guy who was watching us play noticed that we had GTA3 sitting on the ground.

“Hey, you have GTA3”

All of a sudden, people were interested. Another guy turned away from the girl he was talking to and said:

“Wait, is that the game where you can hire a prostitute, **** her, and then kill her and take your money back?”

My friend: “Yeah, you can do that”

Drunk guy: “Awesome! Lets play it!”

He was joined by most of the other people in the room who were now interested in video games once they learned that it was possible to shoot hookers in them. This makes me wonder what this world is coming to, but that is another discussion. That kind of stuff sells, as is evidenced by GTA3s incredible sales numbers. I have heard a lot of people bring up GTA3 as THE reason to buy a PS2, that it alone is worth the purchase of a PS2. If GCN had it, the rest of PS2’s lineup would have to compete with Nintendo and Rare’s AAA titles, along with much better third party support. Also I don’t think that there is any other game that would go farther in getting grid of the “kiddy” image Nintendo has. While I don’t consider GTA3 mature in a literal sense, it is the most popular game with an “M” rating, and is very controversial because of its content. If it was on GCN, it would start changing minds about GCN’s demographic.

So there it is, as far as sales and stereotype, GTA3 would do a lot for Cube; more than ED IMO. That does not mean it would be my choice, but I will not try to argue with the unprecedented widespread appeal that GTA3 has.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #1 Is Now Open.


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 15:54:18 04/19/02 Fri

I feel a number of different ways on this issue.

Sure, I fully understand the huge impact that GTA3 has had on the market. I've seen the hysteria. I've stared in awe at the sales numbers. I'm aware that people still play it every day...

When I think about the Nintendo GameCube, however, and I consider its presence in the world of console gaming over these next years, I don't see the addition of GTA3 as radical or beneficial as I guess you guys do. I think Eternal Darkness will build for itself a new and respectable following without tapping in to what Sony has already done. ED will blaze its [i]own[/i] trail, and therein lies integrity. Therein lies innovation. Therein lies... the Nintendo difference. An excellent game that is all Nintendo's own. No one can touch it. That, to me, is more beneficial.

If we were to get the non-exclusive GTA3, it very well could turn quite a few heads - especially those of the casual gamers. But (as you guys have already stated) Sony has the fanbase and the sales. If you release a major game on all three next gen consoles, Sony will have the numbers to substantiate the PS2 userbase. We have Madden and Tony 3, and those were some of the best-selling titles of last year... but not because they were on Cube. It was all because of Sony.

When a major "casual gamer title" is ported, we don't see casual gamers buying GameCubes all of a sudden. The fact is, we're getting the games late - really late. Most of those people already own GTA3. And most of the Nintendo diehards already bought it if they really wanted to play. This is not hard to understand, since so many GCN fans own a PS2 as well.

To succeed in winning more casual/mainstream gamer market Nintendo needs to pull them in with things they [b]can't[/b] get on their PS2. Furthermore, Nintendo needs to prove to developers that the GameCube is a viable place to put a game with mature content. They need to prove a mature game can survive and thrive on their hardware. Only then will we see franchises like GTA come to the Cube. But like I said, it's not enough to get great mature content ported long after initial release on PS2 - Nintendo needs developers to have the faith and foresight to simultaneously release games of that nature. While Micro$oft seems content to throw millions into getting enhanced scraps from Sony's proverbial table, this has never been Nintendo's style and I doubt it will ever be.

Not to mention the fact that GCN ports of PS2-designed games have to put up with PS2's terrible weaknesses and bottlenecks. This is a separate issue, though...

If I was a casual gamer, I would not buy a GameCube simply because it had GTA3. Most likely I'd already have a PS2 and I'd be happy. If I didn't have a console yet and I wanted that game, I would buy a PS2 and not a Cube because I know of other poular games that are mature and cool on that system. [b]It's not duplicate software that will turn the tables[/b], because by that logic Nintendo should just start calling Sony "Daddy."

It's not always the most popular thing that is the most legendary. For example, the Tonight Show with Jay Leno is the most-watched late night show EIGHT YEARS STRAIGHT. The majority of people watch Jay. But fifty years from now, people will look back and remember not Jay, but Dave. It is Letterman who is the legend. Letterman has the larger crop of avid, diehard supporters. Letterman has innovated more, explored territory first, and broken ground. Dave Letterman is a legend, Jay Leno is a pop culture icon... for the time being.

So many Nintendo fans want Nintendo to be a "Lenoman," but we can't expect the market to always be the same as it was between '87 and '94. Times have changed, and personally I'll be fine sticking with Dave (Nintendo) until the rest of the world sees the value in it. And for that to happen, we need to see the Cube benefit. Games like ED are what will make this happen.

Eternal Darkness is the more beneficial game.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
bradpierce5
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Date Posted: 11:36:01 04/19/02 Fri

While one could concede strengths of both titles, Eternal Darkness is the more valuable of the two. Sure, Grand Theft Auto III has sold bucketloads. No one is going to dispute that. However, with a non-exclusive, you get 2 very big problems.

1) Let's not kid ourselves. The port track record on the Cube has not been good. Bond 007: Agent Under Fire was the only really decent port to show its face. Spy Hunter? Let's not even go there. And if we don't get ports, but instead get the new GTA (4?) at the same time as PS2 and XBox, we know that track record as well. Spiderman proved, beyond anything else, that a few million dollars will get you a more polished game with extras. I doubt that Nintendo would be the company to splurge to get that "little extra" from Rockstar.

2) With non-exclusive games, you lose your console edge. Can we all agree that PS2's user base is absolutely insane? They consistently sell consoles in the tens of thousands, and Sony's system is in its 3rd year. The point of this topic is to decide which game substantially helps the Cube, which I believe would equal the sale of consoles, along with the game. If all three systems have the same game, how does Nintendo gain the advantage? I feel that people are overhyping the importance of the GC/GBA link. We still have not seen a innovative/must-have use for this, and I doubt we will until something comes directly from Nintendo (Animal Crossing does it to an extent, but it isn't exactly "must-have" to make your own clothes and visit a tiny island.) Three consoles with the same game will mean that PS2 owners will buy their version. XBox owners will buy theirs. Gamecube owners would pick up theirs. And anyone with multiple systems would go with the game that has the most (the Head to Head series on IGNInsider, anyone?)

Before I monopolize the roundtable, I'll ask the other members...your thoughts? Don't worry. I'll defend Eternal Darkness in due time. ;)

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 11:44:04 04/19/02 Fri

This is a very good question, and those who are familiar with my constant pro-GCN rhetoric may be surprised by my answer.

Eternal Darkness is easily my most anticipated game. If I end up going to E3, it will be the first game I wait in line for, even though I know it is only a stripped demo. The combination of epic storyline and revolutionary gameplay elements has me drooling, and if this game delivers on its promises, I think we easily have a classic on our hands.

Grand Theft Auto 3 is a great game. Really, it is a very fun game, and it has almost infinite replay value if you like it. I have friends who started playing it when it came out, and still play it every day. I got bored of it rather quickly, but by bored I mean that I play it and enjoy it and then realize that I just spend 3 hours trying to see if I could get a cop to follow me off of a jump into the river. What am I doing with my life L. As a gamer, I only like to play a game while I have an objective by which I can measure my progress. Grand Theft Auto 3 doesn’t really provide me with that, so I don’t play it much anymore.

So which would have a more substantial affect on GAMECUBE? I think the obvious answer is GTA3, even if it was not exclusive. Here’s why:

[b]Casual Gamers[/b]

Casual gamers probably account for a majority of game sales. There are two things that I think attract casual gamers and create hype. The first is pick-up-and-playability. No need to get into a plot or understand what is going on. Once you learn the “attack” and “drag driver out of car” buttons on GTA3, you can pretty much wreak havoc. When you can see a game at your friend’s house, and try it out, you are more likely to buy it yourself. Games with complicated controls or complex storylines are more one or two person affairs, which is one of the reasons no one was interested in FFX in the story I tell a bit later.

Another thing that attracts casual gamers is some aspect of the game that stands out and grabs their attention, in this case shock value. Face it; kids have basically no morals these days. The worse things are that you simulate happening in a game, the worse gamers will want it. I remember not too long ago, my friend brought over his PS2, and we were playing FFX in my living room (the PS2 now pretty much resides at my house). There were several other people around, not gamers by a long shot, having… refreshing beverages. One guy who was watching us play noticed that we had GTA3 sitting on the ground.

“Hey, you have GTA3”

All of a sudden, people were interested. Another guy turned away from the girl he was talking to and said:

“Wait, is that the game where you can hire a prostitute, **** her, and then kill her and take your money back?”

My friend: “Yeah, you can do that”

Drunk guy: “Awesome! Lets play it!”

He was joined by most of the other people in the room who were now interested in video games once they learned that it was possible to shoot hookers in them. This makes me wonder what this world is coming to, but that is another discussion. That kind of stuff sells, as is evidenced by GTA3s incredible sales numbers. I have heard a lot of people bring up GTA3 as THE reason to buy a PS2, that it alone is worth the purchase of a PS2. If GCN had it, the rest of PS2’s lineup would have to compete with Nintendo and Rare’s AAA titles, along with much better third party support. Also I don’t think that there is any other game that would go farther in getting grid of the “kiddy” image Nintendo has. While I don’t consider GTA3 mature in a literal sense, it is the most popular game with an “M” rating, and is very controversial because of its content. If it was on GCN, it would start changing minds about GCN’s demographic.

So there it is, as far as sales and stereotype, GTA3 would do a lot for Cube; more than ED IMO. That does not mean it would be my choice, but I will not try to argue with the unprecedented widespread appeal that GTA3 has.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 11:46:24 04/19/02 Fri

Crap, I have no idea how to use these baords...

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
bradpierce5
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Date Posted: 11:59:52 04/19/02 Fri

I must admit Skinner, you floored me! I was expecting you to defend ED to the death! As I said above, though, this would be a very different question if both games were exclusives. But they aren't. You pick up Grand Theft Auto, you lose your "exclusive" edge.

In terms of Eternal Darkness, lets get all of the comments out of the way against it...Yes, I know Eternal Darkness has been in development forever. Yes, I also know that it is an unproven entity at this point. Moreover, it has much less name recognition than GTA. But it will help Gamecube in the long run. Much more than GTA ever would.

The fact of the matter is that by gaining an exclusive (and by all impressions, it sounds like it is going to be a "must-have"), you gain an edge over the competition. You have a product that the other consoles do not, nor ever will own. You give them a reason to own your console. If GTA comes to all three systems, PS2 owners will not fork down the $199 to get a Gamecube when they only need $50 to get the game. And casual gamers don't tend to throw their money around like its going out of style. On the flip side, Eternal Darkness is poised to really become the next Rare. What I mean is that Rare is known for great quality. Their name was made with the incredible visuals that Donkey Kong Country used on the SNES. It took one game, and Rare's influence on Nintendo (especially the N64 in its aging years) is still felt today. By gaining Eternal Darkness, you very well could have your next breakthrough. Suddenly, you have yet another reason to own a Gamecube...Nintendo...Rare...Silicon Knights. In a way, SK becomes Nintendo's own little factory for the M-rated games (a void that GTA would fill, yet not exclusively).

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 12:43:40 04/19/02 Fri

I agree Brad, SK is an invaluable resource. Having them exclusive is better than if Rockstar supported us equally with PS2. But GTA3 was the best selling game of last year, and has lasted on the charts forever.

You said that with non-exclusive games, you lose your console edge. This is true, but if you look at it, GTA3 is PS2’s single biggest edge right now. Take that away as an exclusive, and you are matching J&D up with Mario, SH with RE, Dark Cloud *snicker* with Zelda. FFX and MGS2 are great games, but I don’t think they can hold up against what Nintendo and Rare have coming later this year. I think taking away that edge from PS2 would be bigger than us having one more exclusive.

The way I see it now, there are people buying a PS2 just because they know it has GTA3, and then just seeing what comes after. If GTA3 was on both systems, they would be forced to compare straight across.

This does change a bit now that GTA is aging, but if we are looking at this in a vacuum (without the current timeframe) then I stand by my statement.

Still I will buy ED, and even though I have GTA3 readily available to play, I don’t…

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
TheVISS
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Date Posted: 12:58:24 04/19/02 Fri

I havent read the responeses yet, as I am too excited to get my point across.

Honestly, ED will do better and heres why....

GAMECUBE fans are a diffrent breed. In my opinion SK is genius to bring ED exclusively to GC...

WHY...you ask....

Simple, Any and all Mature rated games will sell WELL on the GAMECUBE. It's an un-tapped market on the CUBE. EVERY Adult based game that comes to the CUBE gives it's fans something to hold up an say

"SEE>>>I HAVE ETERNAL DARKNESS...THIS IS NOT FOR KIDS!!!!!"

So, ED will sell extremely well on that merit alone.

But...so would GTA3....for similar reasons.

Don't get me wrong. GTA3 is a GREAT game, some may say it was revelotionary....I think it was.

ED has'nt proved a damn thing yet, BUT it is an exclusive adult based horor game for a system that is labeled as "KIDDIE"...That alone will draw people to this game.

TheVISS

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
bradpierce5
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Date Posted: 13:11:14 04/19/02 Fri

[i]I havent read the responeses yet, as I am too excited to get my point across.[/i]

And this is why we all love TheVISS. LOL

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
SamNMax
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Date Posted: 13:18:06 04/19/02 Fri

Good thoughts here guys, and I agree with much of what's being said. I think the issue of whether GTA3 or ED would be more valuable to the Cube at this time is pretty cut-and-dry.

GTA3 brings with it an enormous amount of caché given the way that it's set the casual and hardcore gaming world on fire with its open-ended, well-crafted gameplay and raunchy subject matter. Like it or not, having this game on the Cube would be an enormous feather in Nintendo's cap and would do wonders to help erode the "kiddie" image that plagues them among casual gamers. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think NCL is still a bit too conservative to aggressively pursue obtaining a franchise that promotes such values as murder, prostitution and theft.

They may not require that developers turn blood green anymore, but they know which side their bread's buttered on and would be hesitant to alienate their captive audience of children for which parents are doing a great deal of the research and purchasing. "Conker's Bad Fur Day" is a game that's much lauded by Nintendo's hardcore fanbase of gamers young and old, but I recall at the time there being several news stories about parents being outraged by Nintendo's abandonment of the core principals that made them and their games a safe buy for concerned parents. Many reacted as if Disney had just released a porno film. Nintendo has always made games for the whole family to enjoy, but in losing a great deal of the better third party developers with the various shortcomings of the N64, their happy, cartoony titles ended up dominating the landscape of the system. The effect was that they virtually pigeonholed themselves as a kids' gaming company, and happened to continue to make massive amounts of money doing it. To attempt to pull an image makeover and launch right for the more mature gamer might be a costly mistake, effectively biting the hand that feeds them.

This isn't to say that NCL doesn't have plans for winning the "mature" gaming market back, and this is where having companies like Capcom and Silicon Knights on their side comes in. On the one hand, you have Capcom's ever-popular Resident Evil series which brings horror, blood, guns and grenades to a Nintendo system wrapped in the relatively safe package of a classic (and classy) series with uniformly high production values. Even a concerned parent could admire the Resident Evil series for its movie-like qualities and ethically sound themes (killing already undead zombies being more morally sound than throwing grandmas out of cars). It's clear that Nintendo put forth a good deal of effort to get Capcom on their side (and, perhaps, some financial incentives), so we can see that Nintendo sees Capcom's adoption as a fundamental third party as a key piece in their strategy to round out their image not only as an adult-friendly system, but as a third-party developer-friendly company.

And then there's Silicon Knights with their upcoming "M"-rated adventure powerhouse Eternal Darkness. Though Silicon Knights has yet to prove themselves with a title as ambitious as ED has turned out to be, the fact that NCL is working so incredibly closely with them on the project further goes to demonstrate that they're looking to put some high-quality, best-selling "Mature" titles on their system in a big hurry (in Nintendo-years, which are kind of like inverted dog-years). This game may not have the out-of-the-box success that a port of GTA3 would, but the hype will likely build and the word will spread that ED is an epic, mature adventure that any gamer would do well to look into. Much like Resident Evil, this is a relatively "safe" Mature title. Sure, the blood will be flying and the enemies blown to pieces from time to time, but this is still a title that doesn't define itself by its mature themes. It has enough to bring to the table in terms of innovative gameplay, story and atmosphere that the violence and gore take on a peripheral role that I'm certain NCL is much more comfortable with than other titles (like GTA3) might.

So Nintendo bangs the drum slowly, building a small arsenal of "Mature"-capable developers to start reconstructing a more balanced reputation. ED may not make the splash in the gaming world that GTA3 did, but it will serve as part of a message from Nintendo to the gaming community that they mean business in the mature market and are willing to take steps to see it to fruition. Brad, I like your thought that they're going to have SK as a "factory" for more mature content.

Ultimately, in looking for comparisons to draw with Nintendo, Disney comes to mind as the clearest Doppelganger. They're also a franchise-heavy, family-oriented business that makes a great deal of their money off of children and the parents that do the buying for them. As we all know, Disney eventually opened their Touchstone divison to keep the "R" rated films safely away from their logo and brand name, and that enabled them to reach demographics that they couldn't (and wouldn't) touch with the Disney name.

Here's hoping that by working closely with devlopers like Silicon Knights, Nintendo can have it both ways. I'm fairly confident that's their ultimate goal.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
SamNMax
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Date Posted: 13:31:40 04/19/02 Fri

[i][b]Simple, Any and all Mature rated games will sell WELL on the GAMECUBE. It's an un-tapped market on the CUBE.[/i][/b]

I guess this is the big "question mark" as far as the viability of Mature games on the Cube, VISS. It cannot possibly do the kind of business that GTA3 did (due simply to market share), but if ED sells well it may open the doors to other developers considering developing mature titles on the Cube.

I hope this happens, because I hate to see an excellent company like Nintendo dismissed time and time again based primarily on the fact that the majority of the games for the N64 were "E" type games.

I will be watching the sales charts for ED (and, of course, RE) with great anticipation.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
SamNMax
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Date Posted: 13:33:11 04/19/02 Fri

Echo... echo... echo... :p

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
bradpierce5
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Date Posted: 13:40:35 04/19/02 Fri

SamNMax, you hit the nail on the head, which furthers my point. It is easy to say that GTA will attract new gamers, but, on the flip side, I think it will tear away at Nintendo's core supporters...that being parents. Let me offer this personal experience.

Two weekends ago, I went into a Electronics Boutique to preorder RE (yeah!). I'm the type that likes to take his time and spend a good 30 minutes looking at games, playing demos, etc. Anyway, in the span of 20 minutes, I saw no less than 7 parent/child combos come in a purchase a Gamecube game and/or system. 4....yes, FOUR of them were approached by an employee. All asked for some quality games, preferably from Nintendo. This particular employee told all four about GTAIII. Two were horrified. One completely ignored him (which was hilarious), and one father said "I said I wanted NINTENDO!, not "A Night on State Street!" (which is our slum street). I approached the guy, helping him out with explaining Pikmin , and asked him why he stays with Nintendo. His direct quote "because I don't have to worry about the content. Even their heavy hitting stuff is at least classy." I asked him what he thought of GTAIII, and his comment was, again, "if Nintendo puts that on the shelf, they become just like everyone else. And I don't buy from everyone else."

It took my breath away. Call Nintendo kiddie. Call them stuck in their "niche." But don't underestimate the power they have. The video gamers of yeseryear are now the parents of today. They remember Nintendo, Mario, and Zelda with fondness. Whereas Nintendo can hold true to their "classy" image through games like Eternal Darkness (which is M-rated, but not ethically challenging, for all we know), they could potentially alienate the niche that has carried them for years.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 13:45:33 04/19/02 Fri

Hmm, good thoughts SamNMax. I hadn't considered anything besides the sales aspect of it. Perhaps you are right that Nintendo still does not want to be seen as a company that offers up senseless violence for the masses. They definitely don’t want to make news for it. While Sony raked in the free publicity with a smile on their face, I don’t think Nintendo would want parents who adopted the Cube as a good family based solution to see an old lady getting beaten with a bat and hear that it is available for their kids. Eternal Darkness though is really a mature game in that it probably won’t appeal to the same kids who want to shoot hookers. It will appeal to the dads who bought a cube for their kids, but still like to spend an occasional night behind the controller. It will appeal to young adults that have an appreciation for good presentation and a deep story. When people say that Nintendo targets a different demographic than PS2 and Xbox, I think they are right. Nintendo however is not the one that targets the kids. Like they have said all along, they target the whole family with QUALITY entertainment. If you buy a GameCube for the family, there will be games that everyone can enjoy. In this way, I think that ED DOES fit into Nintendos scheme a lot better than GTA would.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
SamNMax
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Date Posted: 14:04:49 04/19/02 Fri

Heh... I want "A Night on State Street."

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
bradpierce5
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Date Posted: 14:16:01 04/19/02 Fri

I can see it now..."GRAND THEFT MARIO: A night on State Street."

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 14:38:17 04/19/02 Fri

Where is KevinCube?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 15:03:30 04/19/02 Fri

>Where is KevinCube?

Here I am. Chewing on all of this.

First things first, good to be here and good to see such well-thought replies. I must say, SamNMax, you should write long editorials more often. You sell yourself short with regular posts (I mean that as a compliment ;) ).

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 15:57:26 04/19/02 Fri

I feel a number of different ways on this issue.

Sure, I fully understand the huge impact that GTA3 has had on the market. I've seen the hysteria. I've stared in awe at the sales numbers. I'm aware that people still play it every day...

When I think about the Nintendo GameCube, however, and I consider its presence in the world of console gaming over these next years, I don't see the addition of GTA3 as radical or beneficial as I guess you guys do. I think Eternal Darkness will build for itself a new and respectable following without tapping in to what Sony has already done. ED will blaze its [i]own[/i] trail, and therein lies integrity. Therein lies innovation. Therein lies... the Nintendo difference. An excellent game that is all Nintendo's own. No one can touch it. That, to me, is more beneficial.

If we were to get the non-exclusive GTA3, it very well could turn quite a few heads - especially those of the casual gamers. But (as you guys have already stated) Sony has the fanbase and the sales. If you release a major game on all three next gen consoles, Sony will have the numbers to substantiate the PS2 userbase. We have Madden and Tony 3, and those were some of the best-selling titles of last year... but not because they were on Cube. It was all because of Sony.

When a major "casual gamer title" is ported, we don't see casual gamers buying GameCubes all of a sudden. The fact is, we're getting the games late - really late. Most of those people already own GTA3. And most of the Nintendo diehards already bought it if they really wanted to play. This is not hard to understand, since so many GCN fans own a PS2 as well.

To succeed in winning more casual/mainstream gamer market Nintendo needs to pull them in with things they [b]can't[/b] get on their PS2. Furthermore, Nintendo needs to prove to developers that the GameCube is a viable place to put a game with mature content. They need to prove a mature game can survive and thrive on their hardware. Only then will we see franchises like GTA come to the Cube. But like I said, it's not enough to get great mature content ported long after initial release on PS2 - Nintendo needs developers to have the faith and foresight to simultaneously release games of that nature. While Micro$oft seems content to throw millions into getting enhanced scraps from Sony's proverbial table, this has never been Nintendo's style and I doubt it will ever be.

Not to mention the fact that GCN ports of PS2-designed games have to put up with PS2's terrible weaknesses and bottlenecks. This is a separate issue, though...

If I was a casual gamer, I would not buy a GameCube simply because it had GTA3. Most likely I'd already have a PS2 and I'd be happy. If I didn't have a console yet and I wanted that game, I would buy a PS2 and not a Cube because I know of other poular games that are mature and cool on that system. [b]It's not duplicate software that will turn the tables[/b], because by that logic Nintendo should just start calling Sony "Daddy."

It's not always the most popular thing that is the most legendary. For example, the Tonight Show with Jay Leno is the most-watched late night show EIGHT YEARS STRAIGHT. The majority of people watch Jay. But fifty years from now, people will look back and remember not Jay, but Dave. It is Letterman who is the legend. Letterman has the larger crop of avid, diehard supporters. Letterman has innovated more, explored territory first, and broken ground. Dave Letterman is a legend, Jay Leno is a pop culture icon... for the time being.

So many Nintendo fans want Nintendo to be a "Lenoman," but we can't expect the market to always be the same as it was between '87 and '94. Times have changed, and personally I'll be fine sticking with Dave (Nintendo) until the rest of the world sees the value in it. And for that to happen, we need to see the Cube benefit [b][i]on its own[/b][/i]. Games like ED are what will make this happen. Getting GTA3 would help, but it will take ED to even get that far.

Eternal Darkness is the more beneficial game.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 16:16:07 04/19/02 Fri

I too suck at using this medium. MY SECOND POST OF THE SAME HUGE THING IS THE COMPLETE ONE.

Looks like SamNMax, KevinCube, and VISS are leaning the way that Skinner and Brad are not.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 16:20:39 04/19/02 Fri

Nevermind... It's just Skinner. :D

Guys, when are we going to brawl?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 16:26:57 04/19/02 Fri

Ok, that settles it; I am officially going down without much of a fight. The Cube getting GTA3 would just be "me too" move. Eternal Darkness may not become the sales juggernaut that is GTA3, but I think it will be better for Nintendo. My previous statements basically advocated Nintendo trying to hike through the snow on the path to mature gaming by using Sony’s foot holes. That is not the Nintendo way. Nintendo did not resurrect the industry by trying to use Atari’s strategies. They did not chisel out the mold for 3D gaming by mimicking the PSX. They created the rumble pack, the analog stick and the “camera”. (A side note: Was it ever called the “camera” before Mario 64? Because I can’t think of another reason why that would enter the vernacular.) Basically, Nintendo has always done its own thing, and it has been other people who followed. It would not be wise of them to change that strategy now.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 16:30:51 04/19/02 Fri

>Ok, that settles it; I am officially going down
>without much of a fight. The Cube getting GTA3 would
>just be "me too" move. Eternal Darkness may not become
>the sales juggernaut that is GTA3, but I think it will
>be better for Nintendo. My previous statements
>basically advocated Nintendo trying to hike through
>the snow on the path to mature gaming by using Sony’s
>foot holes. That is not the Nintendo way. Nintendo did
>not resurrect the industry by trying to use Atari’s
>strategies. They did not chisel out the mold for 3D

Most... Peaceful... Roundtable... EVAR.

Good analogy! And no, I never refererred to it as the "camera" until Mario64.
>gaming by mimicking the PSX. They created the rumble
>pack, the analog stick and the “camera”. (A side note:
>Was it ever called the “camera” before Mario 64?
>Because I can’t think of another reason why that would
>enter the vernacular.) Basically, Nintendo has always
>done its own thing, and it has been other people who
>followed. It would not be wise of them to change that
>strategy now.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
SamNMax
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Date Posted: 16:50:22 04/19/02 Fri

Not enough controversy here... time to stir things up!

Hey guys,

I mock your value system. You also appear foolish to the eyes of others.

Past instances in which I professed to like you were fraudulent.

I engaged in intercourse with your spouse or significant other.

Eat that!

And Kevincube, usually I don't really have the strength for long editorial-style posts, especially when others are saying basically what I think. They just come in bursts. I used to write more, but generally the response didn't justify the time put into the post.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 16:55:31 04/19/02 Fri

Next week we should see if we can get some of the top posters from other boards involved... or discuss a more controversial topic. New Zelda anyone? Heh heh heh

*gets slapped*

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[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 17:12:37 04/19/02 Fri

>Not enough controversy here... time to stir things up!
>
>Hey guys,
>
>I mock your value system. You also appear foolish to
>the eyes of others.
>
>Past instances in which I professed to like you were
>fraudulent.
>
>I engaged in intercourse with your spouse or
>significant other.
>
>Eat that!

LOL... That ho!


>Next week we should see if we can get some of the top
>posters from other boards involved... or discuss a
>more controversial topic. New Zelda anyone? Heh heh heh
>
>*gets slapped*

*finishes slapping him*

I like your first idea. That will turn us into a team.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 17:14:43 04/19/02 Fri

For controversy, we needed Atland's "sister" (Evil Atland) to come and play.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
KevinCube
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Date Posted: 17:18:31 04/19/02 Fri

I'm surprised we all have reached the same conclusions so easily. This would be a heated debate even if it was just on the GCN GB.

We must be swell.

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[> Subject: Re: Inner-Board Roundtable #1


Author:
Michael Skinner
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Date Posted: 18:40:15 04/19/02 Fri

Moderator? I think it is time to stick a fork in this one...

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