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Subject: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: MODERATOR [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 10:41:42 04/22/02 Mon Is Nintendo's airtight secrecy surrounding its games justified, or are they just overly paranoid? [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:53:32 04/22/02 Mon Let me be the first...you know, I love Nintendo and I think it is because we stick with them that we alone have the right to b*tch. I don't even want to hear that secrecy is good and Nintendo benefits from it. Nintendo shoots themselves in the proverbial foot each and every time they shut their mouths about a title until a particular trade show. Don't get me wrong. E3 and Spaceworld are very important, but is it worth it to look like the boy who swallowed his toungue for the rest of the year? Flame if you wish, but Nintendo needs to unzip their mouths and start talking. The new Zelda is a perfect example. Uhh...Mr. Miyamoto, the truth is that you didn't get a rousing pat on the back for your Zelda switch. Maybe if you had opened your mouth and told us why it was necessary instead of "I don't wanna talk about it! ", you wouldn't have alienated some Nintendo fans who feel that Zelda has been turned into a Saturday morning cartoon. Whew...anyone have a spare flame-retardant suit for me? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: Michael Skinner [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:21:44 04/22/02 Mon I have always assumed that Nintendo had some greater good in mind that kept them from spilling the secrets. I always hated the waiting and the lack of information, but I always just assumed that I had to take it because that is how things worked. Now that I think about it, why does Nintendo keep so many secrets? I think one reason may be for hype purposes. I have to admit, when a big game comes out of the blue at a trade show, and there has already been a lot of progress done on it, I really get excited. If I know about a game for along time, and screens and movies slowly but surely get released, it is really hard to stay interested. This was seen recently during the drought of information on ED. All of the hype died down and there were a lot of people saying that they were not excited about it and wouldn’t get it. Of course when new information was released, the hype get better, but in order to keep excitement for a game high, you pretty much have to keep talking about it from the time it is announced to the time you release it. I think that Nintendo wants all of its games to be fresh ideas that come out of the blue and don’t have much time to get stale. The reason that Nintendo waits for the trade shows is because that is where the press is. Everyone is looking to the trade shows for a good metric of how the following months in the industry are going to play out. When Nintendo drops several bombs (which they usually do) it gets people excited. They are looking at stuff on PS2 and Xbox that they have know about for some time, but there is all this new stuff to get excited about at the Nintendo booth. Trade show enthusiasm and pictures of long lines to play Mario are invaluable press and really set the tone for the following months. Because Nintendo is so secretive, they always make a big splash at trade shows. That being said, Microsoft and Sony have seemed to do fine so far with their method of generating hype, so it is arguable weather Nintendo’s secrecy is justified. I think we will see at E3 whether or not it is. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:58:13 04/22/02 Mon Nintendo waits for the trade shows because of the press? Well, of course they do, but you just proved my point! After Spaceworld, the Zelda reaction (especially in the US)was not positive. Did Nintendo try to do anything about that? Did they attempt to smooth over the dissentors by explaining why the change took place? Did they give some answers to appease fans? How about Miyamoto saying more than "Wait until you play it." No. Nothing. Spaceworld closes, and Nintendo's lips go tighter than a...well, fill in your own ending. The other problem? The "Wait for E3/Spaceworld" syndrome. Must all Nintendo news be relegated to May and August? If we don't hear something at E3, it is surely "wait until Spaceworld." When we get nothing at Spaceworld, we hear "Wait until E3." Its a horrible cycle. You are right Skinner. Microsoft and Sony seem to generate hype just fine, and they don't act like they are protecting secrets like they are of national security. Nintendo is paranoid. Plain and simple. You can "have your cake and eat it too." Make your splash at the trade shows, but suck it up and appease us for the other 50 weeks in the year. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:09:20 04/22/02 Mon I'd say Skinner is on the right track... but more on that later. First, this quote from Brad really stuck out to me: [i]"Microsoft and Sony seem to generate hype just fine, and they don't act like they are protecting secrets like they are of national security. Nintendo is paranoid. Plain and simple."[/i] I COMPLETELY agree. But personally, I see see this as a justified move. We all agree Nintendo's games have always been the ones to push the envelope - creating gameplay and even entire genres. The ripoffs of Nintendo and its second parties are endless. It shows a real lack of integrity when a company is always ripping off Nintendo, and I doubt Nintendo wants to encourage that. This, I believe, is part of the reason. [i]"Nintendo waits for the trade shows because of the press? Well, of course they do, but you just proved my point! After Spaceworld, the Zelda reaction (especially in the US)was not positive. Did Nintendo try to do anything about that? Did they attempt to smooth over the dissentors by explaining why the change took place? Did they give some answers to appease fans? How about Miyamoto saying more than "Wait until you play it." No. Nothing. Spaceworld closes, and Nintendo's lips go tighter than a..."[/i] I think what you're missing here, Brad, is that Miyamoto's "Wait until you play it" comment was [b]more[/b] than he was planning on saying. We all agree that Nintendo is very tight-lipped. If the reaction from SW2K1 had been completely positive, Miyamoto would never have said that much. The Cel Zelda trailer may have caused an uproar, but that's not going to change Nintendo's methodology. Slowly, hype is still building for the game. More and more haters are realizing it will be brilliant regardless of its graphical look. But back to the point, the uproar over the graphic change [i]did[/i] garner an extra something from Nintendo. Granted, it wasn't much, but coming from them... it says a lot. My feelings behind the hyping of games and the release of secrets, news, and tidbits kind of extends from what Skinner laid out. Notable quotes: I think one reason may be for hype purposes. I have to admit, when a big game comes out of the blue at a trade show, and there has already been a lot of progress done on it, I really get excited....I think that Nintendo wants all of its games to be fresh ideas that come out of the blue and don’t have much time to get stale... The reason that Nintendo waits for the trade shows is because that is where the press is. Everyone is looking to the trade shows for a good metric of how the following months in the industry are going to play out... They are looking at stuff on PS2 and Xbox that they have know about for some time, but there is all this new stuff to get excited about at the Nintendo booth... Because Nintendo is so secretive, they always make a big splash at trade shows... That being said, Microsoft and Sony have seemed to do fine so far with their method of generating hype, so it is arguable weather Nintendo’s secrecy is justified. I think we will see at E3 whether or not it is."[/i] You see, there are two seemingly exclusive facts: 1) Nintendo's hype philosophy works. 2) Sony's and M$'s hype philosophies work. As we all know, however, those two facts can co-exist. What ends up being the question is not "Who hypes better?" but "Who hypes more efficiently?" And in my opinion, that's the thing Nintendo understands better than the competition. For us, video gaming is a year round thing. We don't just walk into the stores arbitrarily and buy a game that looks neat from time to time. We research. We follow news. We anticipate. We look for release dates... We are the audience that Sony and M$ cater to, but we are also an audience that would love to have that information from Ninteno as well. Nintendo realizes this. Beyond wanting to guard their concepts and innovations, they know that if they hold back now - they can OWN the shows. So we then question the merit of that. I say it's a good move. A show like E3 has all the press and retailers there. That means the non-hardcore audience will be aware of what they (press and retailers) experience at the show. While video gaming is year round for us, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way. The hype generated at shows where Nintendo drops bombs is enough to place them in the spotlight. So in the end, Nintendo caters to a larger audience in their hype strategy. It might not be as gratifying week to week, but Nintendo's consistent success is proof enough for me. Oh, and by the way - Nintendo is going to own E3. And if not, wait until Spaceworld. ;) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: Bradpierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:34:00 04/22/02 Mon Kevin, Kevin, Kevin... I see its already 2 against 1. This is more like it. Fight...fight to the death! There is this idea that X company will copy Nintendo's X idea if information is released on the game. I have to tell you, I don't buy it. I think it is flawed thinking. Nintendo says that so they can get away with their secrecy. I mean, REALLY, if a company tries to steal a Nintendo idea, its not like it will be the hottest seller to date. Take Mario. I don't care what Miyamoto does to this series. It will sell because of the name Mario. To hardcore gamers, it may matter what "innovations" are involved, but to a casual gamer and/or parent, it doesn't matter. It's a...him...Mario. In terms of "hype," I don't buy it either. Thanks to Nintendo, they really had two main times to plug the release of the Gamecube...E3 and Spaceworld 2001. I don't know about you, but I thought Nintendo did an amazing job at E3, and then let everyone down at Spaceworld. Whether you like it or not, the new Zelda turned off some fans. And it really felt like Nintendo coasted into launch, banking on the "Nintendo" name more than anything else, and XBox stayed even, if not beat them, at launch. I don't care how you look at it. Videogame giant Nintendo was pushed and exceeded (even if it was by a small margin) by a videogame newbie. I think you are missing my point, KevinCube. Someone must have snuck in here and whispered that Brad doesn't think the trade shows are important. I do. Thanks to their secrecy, Nintendo is going to own E3. We all know that. But I'm saying that Nintendo should stop using the trade shows and their brand as a crutch. They use it to justify delays, secrecy, and a lack of information to us, the gamers. Let's also be honest, Kevin. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all want the same thing...your money, and your allegiance. You think that Sony wants you to go buy a XBox? I don't think so. Think Nintendo is praying that after you buy a Gamecube, you'll also pick up a PS2? No. Sure, Nintendo has a strong track record, but in this highly competitive time, Nintendo needs to keep gamers on their side. Their practices say "At E3, be a Nintendo fan! At Spaceworld be a Nintendo fan! At Christmas, Be a Nintendo fan! The rest of the year, go away. You get nothing from us. Let's be honest here. Due to Nintendo's lack of true information and games in Q1, how many fans do you think bought a new system, or left Nintendo (I know some who have sold their Cubes)? The videogame industry should be played like fishing. You bait the hook (your juicy games), you throw it in (let the gamers have the system), and then you tease, taunt, and make them HAVE to bite (be a Nintendo fan). Nintendo goes fishing twice a year. The rest of the year, Sony and Microsoft have free reign of the lake. After all, aside from E3 and Spaceworld, Sony and Microsfot do what Nintendon't! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: TheVISS [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:55:28 04/22/02 Mon LISTEN... Stop bieng Nintendo Lovin FOOLS The Industry has changed. The XBOX sold and outsold Nintendo here on HYPE alone...THATS IT JUST HYPE! Nintendo advertises next to none. They speak nothing about their games...and when they DO SPEAK it's about a delay. It's gotten gay...I mean really really old and gay They will lose this systems war on the fact that they are playing a new game using their old ways. This is not the SEGA Nintendo wars. These are Billion Dollar HYPE MACHINES that they are dealing with. AND THEY DONT CARE It's sad...Real sad. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: TheVISS [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:59:03 04/22/02 Mon AND STOP WRITTING SO DAMN MUCH!!! No ONE WANTS TO READ DRWAN OUT CONCLUSIONS!! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: SamNMax [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:09:53 04/22/02 Mon All right guys, not that I have anything too profound to offer to this discussion, but here goes nothing: This issue is another one that goes to the question of Nintendo's core audience. The question of Nintendo's secrecy isn't really "Do they not care about the fans?" but "Do they not care about the young adult and adult fans?" Anyone who's stuck to Nintendo for all these years knows that if it's information love you're looking for from the Big "N," then you've already got yourself got a one-way ticket to Disappointment Island. In my years as a Nintendo fan, I've come up with a pretty simple rule to describe my experience: The only time it's good to be a Nintendo fan is when you've got a controller in your hand and a Nintendo game in the console - otherwise, times can be rough. Nintendo seems to prefer the more subversive means of advertising afforded them by a franchise-heavy business model to the more straight-ahead "system giveaway" and "primetime television barrage" method. Through tie-ins, merchandising and children's programming, they are able to endlessly and inexpensively keep themselves fresh in the minds of their target audience of primarily 13 and unders. Heck, in the case of their long-running Pokemon show, movies, and toys, they're able to make large amounts of money while cross-promoting their line of video games, playing cards and game consoles, all the while establishing and building upon a lasting trust in their brand. So if Nintendo seems to be so active in grabbing the eyes and minds of youngsters, why is it that they seem to ignore the youngsters they successfully seduced in generations past? Evidence seems to point to their believing that incredibly, consistently high-quality games will excuse all mistakes. The "Nintendo Difference" is notorious by now, and they already acknowledged awareness of it when the release of the Cube was pending. 1. Nintendo-published games are nearly always delayed for quality-assurance issues. 2. Nintendo very rarely releases screenshots or written information on upcoming games until they're very nearly released (may be partially caused by #1) 3. Nintendo hardly ever grants interviews. If they do, it's with a highly rehearsed Shigeru Miyamoto and Satoru Iwata who say "We can't say anything" more than they actually answer questions. Generally they say that everything is coming along fine, deny major rumors and that everything will be clear at E3 or Spaceworld. 4. Nintendo never released debugging hardware to the press, so they cannot look at early versions of a game (or even finished, but pre-pressed) unless the developer jumps through hoops. Most developers don't. These points tend to point to a simple conclusion: Nintendo only cares about press coverage to the extent that they feel is necessary, and no more. This is how Nintendo acts across the board. They do what they feel is necessary to succeed and survive, but no more. And don't sell them short on this point. Somehow older gamers seem to have trouble letting go of Nintendo even though their competitors are much better at doing the journalistic lambada. I think Nintendo's core strategy has always been to release games of only the highest quality and that the rest will follow. Their advertising strategy has morphed into roughly that of the much-beleaguered tobacco industry: get 'em while they're young, keep delivering that addictive product and you'll hang on to 'em forever. It's a rather sinister interpretation for our smiley, cuddly Nintendo, but I think it works. As for holding all of their cards until E3, I think it involves more than just the press. Certainly, the press are there and I agree with Skinner's notion that it can't be a bad thing to own these shows with all the surprises they always offer and the excitement it seems to generate. But don't forget that there are more people at E3 than just press. There are developers, distributors, representatives of retail chains, television and film executives, and countless other types of people who have neither the time nor the inclination to keep their fingers firmly on the pulse of the video gaming press like we fans do. Making a giant splash at these shows can artificially boost Nintendo's buzz-factor for all these non-fanatical types and can mean a few better deals made, a few more developers on-board, a few awards (in the case of E3), and... *gasp* even a glowing reception from the press. So they get to have it both ways... they get to look like the company everyone has their eyes on to potential business partners and in so doing get lots of glowing press and become (or remain) the company that everyone has their eyes on. So how does it work out for the fans if Nintendo's mute for 98% of the year and insanely verbose for 2% of it? It doesn't. Nintendo fans largely get left out to dry while other consoles get their screenshots, their in-depth features and intensive developer interviews. Like I said: The only time it's good to be a Nintendo fan is when you've got a controller in your hand and a Nintendo game in the console - otherwise, times can be rough. Just wait for E3! ;) [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:18:18 04/22/02 Mon I'll respond in a bit! Sorry - busy now. Brad - you gonna get it :p [To be edited later - not included in future thread] [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:54:40 04/22/02 Mon Oh God...I actually agree with TheVISS. Hold on, let me look outside. Yep, pigs are indeed flying. TheVISS is right, folks, and you all seem a little to blind to see the obvious. You all talk of the Nintendo image and how glorious games will save them, but in the context of the console wars, let me remind all that have missed it. Nintendo got their butts handed to them last generation. They banked on loyalty when Miyamoto and friends decided to stick with cartridges, and the N64 fell on its behind. The SNES days were the golden days. Numerous developers. Numerous fans. GONE. Square, goodbye. They took Enix with them. Suddenly, we get 1-2 good games a year. Wha?! Is this the Nintendo difference? I'm glad they take care of gamers. I sure enjoyed shelling out an additional $10 on every game, because it was a cartridge. Thanks Nintendo. And in the age of Gamecube, they refuse to change. They flipped the proverbial finger at those loyal to Nintendo last generation, and many fans moved onto the much friendlier Sony shores. Yeah, Nintendo's image sure is valuable now. I swear that Nintendo promised this was the Anti-64. I would think that with that would go a deeper investment in John Q. Gamer, but I must be out of my mind. Why question what Nintendo does? They make great games. The Nintendo difference is waiting and waiting for amazing games. You are right. Luigi's Mansion was the world's greatest tech demo. Thanks Nintendo! And moreover, I've been wanting the debug issue to come up. You all talk of the press and how important they are to Nintendo. WHY ON EARTH would you make it as hard as possible on the people you depend on come E3 and Spaceworld? Where Sony and XBox let the press dabble in their coming games, Nintendo lets them dabble in comments like "They'll steal our secrets!" and "Wait until E3!" I love Nintendo, and probably always will. Their quality has kept me around, but SamNMax makes a great point. The only time to be a Nintendo fan is when you have a controller in your hand, but I'm sorry. In this console war, the only people with Nintendo controllers in their hands are the very loyal. The casual gamers (where the true winner of the console war will be decided) don't have a Gamecube controller. They see the XBox and PS2 hype machine, and they follow the trail. Nintendo banks on the old adage "we'll follow the old man wherever he goes." The problem is, when the old man never talks...never shows us anything...it makes it that much harder to follow him. Wait until E3? Fine. Wait until Spaceworld? Okay. I am already fearful of the day when fans will start to say "wait for the NEXT generation!" What will that be? The anti-Gamecube era? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 04:19:49 04/23/02 Tue VISS - Sorry if reading a more substantial bunch bothers you. I try to leave no stone unturned when I write something. Call it anal, call it an effort to back up my points... But at the end of the day, it's just me. I've often wondered why you skip a line between each sentence and capitalize so much and rarely check your spelling :p - but it's [i]you[/i], that's the way VISS is and I don't want to change that unless VISS wants to. Besides, there are some more long-winded than I... - NEXT - Brad, old buddy, old pal... Slow down, turbo. I wholeheartedly agree that Nintendo has changes to make if they want to optimize their operations. And I also wholeheartedly believe that they are striving to make them. Slowly but surely they are making the right decisions. There are a lot of archaic business practices to clean up, and I believe they are trying, and compromising in areas they aren't so comfortable with. That takes a humble attitude. That takes listening to the consumer. Nintendo has moved to a disc media. Nintendo has more agressively sought the 3rd parties. And though imperfections still exist, we must realize that change takes time. For some reason, everyone (including me) thought all the Nintendo "problems" would be fixed at launch. This was a new Nintendo, we thought... The thing is, we thought wrong. Drastic change does not commonly happen over night. While many significant changes were visible on November 18th (more consoles/accessories available than previous launches, more software to choose from overall, FIVE first and second party titles within a month of launch, etc...), there are others we're still waiting on. Those changes are on the near horizon. You want a more agressive ad campaign? Look for that to happen when ED is hyped. There are millions going into it, as well as groundbreaking involvement with the movie industry. You want a more steady flow of good games? I think we can rest assured that Nintendo is taking care of it. Their release schedule for this winter is proof - and NO, I don't necessarily believe all those games will make it out, but a large portion of them certainly will, and that will be PLENTY. Especially since there is some excellent third party support as well. I think we should treat Nintendo like a loved family member and be patient. They are changing. They are evolving. And meanwhile, we need to remember that it's worth the wait. The games prove it. They always have. Regardless, all of this separate ranting is off topic. And back [b]to[/b] the topic - you also have to realize that getting a bunch of pre-game game is not everyone's cup of tea. I've been exposed to all things Resident Evil and frankly, I got a bit disenchanted when I downloaded my three billionth video and saw random screenshot #septillion and eight. I felt what it was like to be a PS2 fan. The floodgates were opened and I experienced firsthand what it is like to be "on the inside" during development. And you know, I wish I would have steered clear of all that stuff. It killed the mystery. It killed the immediacy. It killed the childlike anticipation that I would have had otherwise. So basically what I'm saying is, I can build a case for Nintendo's secrecy based on their own methods of hype-building. I can build a case for it based on ripoffs (though I agree - that's a much smaller reason)[see my first post for those cases], and I can build a case based on personal preference. I personally prefer the way Nintendo does things. Finally, you have to acknowlege the situation from Nintendo's perspective and not just ours. In their minds, their secrecy works. It works for their showings, thus affecting their retailer/press hype and skyrocketing software sales. It works for their desire to not be ripped off, as it keeps moron developers from copying them until they are on to the next project. Most importantly to me, though, it preserves the mystery and fantasy of the worlds they create. I've been gaming for 16 years, and I'm still spellbound. If you were Nintendo, and you were held to the standard they are, why would you want to show your craptacular "in the works" games off? You see what happens when they release a screen of Mario - they just can't win. I'd rather not have to go around reminding people that it will be an amazing game and it will pioneer new gameplay and set new standards. Everyone should already know that. But is there really that much to be mad about with a company that doesn't want to show their cards until they've got the best hand possible? Is that such a crime? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 04:31:23 04/23/02 Tue Looks like Brad and VISS are in agreement, while I occupy the other side. Skinner, SamNMax - you fellas still riding the fence? That must hurt. Come on over and give me some support! These are not the droids you are looking for! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 04:54:52 04/23/02 Tue [i]As for holding all of their cards until E3, I think it involves more than just the press. Certainly, the press are there and I agree with Skinner's notion that it can't be a bad thing to own these shows with all the surprises they always offer and the excitement it seems to generate. But don't forget that there are more people at E3 than just press. There are developers, distributors, representatives of retail chains, television and film executives, and countless other types of people who have neither the time nor the inclination to keep their fingers firmly on the pulse of the video gaming press like we fans do. Making a giant splash at these shows can artificially boost Nintendo's buzz-factor for all these non-fanatical types and can mean a few better deals made, a few more developers on-board, a few awards (in the case of E3), and... *gasp* even a glowing reception from the press.[/i] This doesn't necessarily need to be in the eventual thread, but I just wanted to point it out as GENIUS. Good stuff, SamNMax. Good stuff. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: TheVISS [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:33:27 04/23/02 Tue LET ME MAKE THIS AS PLAIN AS DAY...OK How many people do YOU know that own a GC? I know one....ME I Know..I know....It's about the games...Blah Blah Blah Blah Truth is, The regular gamer doesnt give a rats ass about how good the Games are. I mean sure they need some good games. But it's the hype and cool factor that sells to High School and College kids. Lets face it, Nintendo isn't even cool with Grade School kids anymore. My 12 year old sister (6th Grade) said NO ONE has a GC. It's either XBOX or PS2. Now, Nintendo has some great games....Nintendo also has some goodies in the future. But how would a 6th grader know? They wouldnt!!!! Because Nintendo thinks that they are the goddamn CIA!!!! They keep everthing quite TheVISS [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:09:52 04/23/02 Tue Kevin, I think you just discovered Nintendo's philosophy. Always promise that old errors will be fixed on the "near horizon." That way, its always a few months away, and accountability falls by the wayside. Again, your "ad campaign" example is in the near future. And if ED's ads aren't all they were meant to be? We'll look to Mario (which would sell itself without ad campaigns). But let's do get back on topic (although the semi-rants are highly enjoyable). Once again, you miss my point while quoting SamNMax. I am NOT saying that E3 and Spaceworld are important. I am saying that I also think they need to do a little more during the rest of the year. I'm not saying it has to be like RE every time. You give the Mario screenshot example, and I do appreciate it. You prove my point yet again. Miyamoto says that in the game, "a lot of things are going on." It's a "lively" game. Yet, what do they release? A screenshot of Mario alone, climbing a palm tree. Wow! Revolutionary! If Nintendo wants us to understand why Mario's graphics aren't the second coming, provide 5 or 10 screen shots that show the "lively" world. Prove to us that they aren't smoking crack. Nintendo first and foremost says their secrecy is based upon not wanting other companies to copy them. Geez. When Nintendo unveils Zelda at E3, let's say HYPOTHETICALLY that Zelda doesn't make it out this year. There are a lot of companies that could copy ideas, paste them into a game, and publish it before Zelda sees the light of day. YET, it won't matter. Those games will be craptacular, and Zelda will be amazing. Let me clarify. Did I ever say the trade shows were unimportant? No. Did I say that Nintendo should give us every bit of information they have? Nopers. Did I say that Nintendo doesn't even benefit from secrecy at times? Again, no. All I am saying is that Nintendo needs to understand that name recognition carries you so far. Sure, the very loyal will forgive the secrecy, the delays, and the indistinguishable answers. But John Q. Casual Gamer will not. And that doesn't bode well for Nintendo in the future. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: Michael Skinner [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:06:14 04/23/02 Tue [i]Skinner, SamNMax - you fellas still riding the fence? That must hurt.[/i] It does at first, but after years of not getting any, you get used to it… [i]Miyamoto says that in the game, "a lot of things are going on." It's a "lively" game. Yet, what do they release? A screenshot of Mario alone, climbing a palm tree. Wow! Revolutionary! If Nintendo wants us to understand why Mario's graphics aren't the second coming, provide 5 or 10 screen shots that show the "lively" world[/i] Brad, when you see Mario at E3, and it is indeed a “lively” game, will that fact that it took you that long to find out really matter? In some ways gamers have very short memories. This down time for both news and games will soon be over, and when it is, no one will be saying “Yeah, these games all hella rock, but remember that time a while ago when we didn’t have any news? Nintendo sucks” I actually think that the lack of information about games and the lack of good advertising are part of Nintendo’s strategy. They weren’t ready for launch, so why try to force an inferior product on gamers? They tried it with the N64 and it didn’t work. When GameCube has an array of good games that appeal to a wide audience, I think they will start the hype machine; we already see signs of it happening. Even then I don’t think we will see a constant flow of information out of Nintendo. And like Kevin Cube said, I kind of prefer it that way. Getting endless information on a game actually makes me less hyped for it. I much prefer large, infrequent doses. [i] Sure, the very loyal will forgive the secrecy, the delays, and the indistinguishable answers. But John Q. Casual Gamer will not. And that doesn't bode well for Nintendo in the future.[/i] I don’t think John Q. Casual Gamer really knows about Nintendo’s secrecy and delays. All John Q. Casual Gamer knows is that the newest issue of EGM says that Mario blew them out of the water. “Whoa, Mario is gonna be good? I thought it was just for kids. I’ll have to check that out.” [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:27:50 04/23/02 Tue "Brad, when you see Mario at E3, and it is indeed a “lively” game, will that fact that it took you that long to find out really matter? In some ways gamers have very short memories." It won't to me, but it does to casual gamers for the reasons you mention. They have short memories. Sure, they are bowled over at E3, but they forget due to Nintendo's silence. That's what hurts them...not their use of trade shows. Its the fact that Nintendo should realize that short attention spans require reminders, and not necessarily only twice a year. "“Whoa, Mario is gonna be good? I thought it was just for kids. I’ll have to check that out.” :::3 months later::: ....what? Mario is out? Who knew!? "Even then I don’t think we will see a constant flow of information out of Nintendo. And like Kevin Cube said, I kind of prefer it that way. Getting endless information on a game actually makes me less hyped for it. I much prefer large, infrequent doses." Where do you guys get that I want all information on a game? I'm saying that Nintendo loses perfect opportunities to make a splash outside of the two big trade shows. Why not let an EGM do a nice, big cover story on 2002: The Year That Nintendo Fights Back? Why not give EGM a small taste of what is to come that will get the casual gamers interested in the other 10 months of the year. Give them 4 brand new Zelda screenshots, a little surprise about Mario Sunshine, and an explanation on how ball morphing works in Metroid. These aren't groundbreaking. They aren't necessarily amazing. But they are at least something. Why am I the only one who doesn't agree with Nintendo giving information only twice a year? Why am I the only one who thinks that while Sony and Microsoft are wetting the appetites of gamers with SMALL bits of information, Nintendo says nothing? I don't want every secret. I don't want gameplay innovations, 10-minute movies, or full-page screenshots. I just want Nintendo to wet the appetites of gamers year round. They can keep their secrecy about the "BIG" things. But does that mean they have to shut their mouths about everything else? I remember reading a quote on IGN about Luigi's Mansion...they said that they couldn't say much, but what we had seen of Luigi's Mansion was just the start. And what do we get? A fun 5 hour game that was doing the same things we saw at E3 and Spaceworld. Folks...sometimes Nintendo's secrecy just DOESN'T work. Why am I the only one who cares to see that? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: SamNMax [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:00:03 04/23/02 Tue Heh... sitting on the fence. Well, you could call it that, or you could call it fallout from being a Nintendo fan for far too long. I just don't expect anything from Nintendo but great games anymore. They don't deliver much else, do they? I guess this holiday season, the proof will be in the pudding. Nintendo has taken its usual baby steps in getting more 3rd parties on-board, eliminating some hardware issues and soliciting the "mature" gamer (the results of which we will begin seeing April 30th with RE's release), so it's really just a matter of seeing whether or not these moves alone will thrust them beyond their N64 reputation when the big guns come out. To agree with Bradpierce and VISS, I'll certainly concede that they may have improved on these points, but they haven't improved on their communication with the press and fans, and they haven't yet improved their flow of titles. Nintendo is a company that frustratingly plays by its own enigmatic rules (usually to record profits), so whether their continued silence is a giant mistake in this age of gaming or just Nintendo knowing what they need to do to get the sales they're aiming for. The biggest, most unmistakable problem with their plan is the undeniable gap between 1st/2nd party titles. Why would they necessarily release much information/screenshots about games that are far from finished and not looking nearly as good as they're going to when they're finally released? If fans, as it would seem, only get upset at this unfinished footage, (Mario Sunshine or "Celda," anyone?) what reason would they have to continue this bad PR cycle? I'm sure Nintendo will release much more footage/information on the games when they are closer to being released, but this perceived "airtightness" stems mainly from the fact that they just don't have many games on the very near horizon. They need to ramp up the regularity of their major games and then release information on them as they normally do: close to release. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: SamNMax [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:02:51 04/23/02 Tue Edit, paragraph 3 of my last post. "so whether their continued silence is a giant mistake in this age of gaming or just Nintendo knowing what they need to do to get the sales they're aiming for shall yet be seen." Left that sentence a fragment. Are we able to edit? Or does stuff go up as is? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: MODERATOR [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:28:11 04/23/02 Tue Those who edit will be shot on the spot. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:53:03 04/23/02 Tue Brad - I most certainly feel your pain. If you say you want [i]some[/i] and not necessarily [i]more[/i], I say fair enough. Still in my opinion we [b]do[/b] get some, albeit a small amount in comparison to the HypeBox and the PS2muchinfo. I just have to look at the big picture. I just have to accept that if this is what it takes for them to make the games they do - I say bring it on. In general, I'm the same way as Nintendo: I don't like to make a showing until I have the best possible showing. And that drives me to work hard and go the extra mile in order to not dissappoint, ands in order to live up to the standards I've set for myself. The fact remains that Nintendo is not a trend follower. They set their oen course, they march to the beat of their own drummer (Koji Kondo!), and that's what has propelled them to their legendary status - NOTHING ELSE. And I agree with SamNMax: [i]"...you could call it fallout from being a Nintendo fan for far too long. I just don't expect anything from Nintendo but great games anymore. They don't deliver much else, do they?"[/i] And Skinner's comment here crystalized my thoughts exactly: [i]"I don’t think John Q. Casual Gamer really knows about Nintendo’s secrecy and delays. All John Q. Casual Gamer knows is that the newest issue of EGM says that Mario blew them out of the water."[/i] And furthermore, Skinner hit the nail on the head when he said that YOU the hardcore gamer do not need a screenshot to tell you that Mario will be amazing. You can trust Shigeru, and if you point to Luigi's Tech Demo as support for saying you can't trust him, remember that it was not primarily his game. Even so, LM was fun while it lasted and not too difficult by any stretch. Clearly a kids game that Nintendo wanted to experiment with and could wrap up in time for launch. That's okay with me. I know they're not approaching Mario or Link the same way. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:59:36 04/23/02 Tue Around the third paragraph or so - I meant OWN, not that weird word that I typed instead. Methinks is one word, for the sake of your soon to be editing task. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:01:08 04/23/02 Tue There's also an "ands" where I meant "and" Sorry. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:31:29 04/23/02 Tue "Making a giant splash at these shows can artificially boost Nintendo's buzz-factor for all these non-fanatical types and can mean a few better deals made, a few more developers on-board, a few awards (in the case of E3), and... *gasp* even a glowing reception from the press." Of course, debug units, exclusives, and some general answers during interviews could do the same thing with the press, me thinks. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:12:50 04/23/02 Tue VISS, VISS, VISS - Are you saying the GameCube, which has been out for a half of a year, does not have the installed userbase of the PS2? [i]There's[/i] a big surprise. And are you saying that the [b]500 million dollars[/b] that M$ has spent to push the Xbox in America has garnered it a buzz with the hip and swingin' teens? Yet [i]another[/i] big surprise. And now, the truth: PS2 has been on the market more than three times as long as GameCube and Xbox has sold the big 200K or so more than Cube IN AMERICA. Worldwide, Xbox will continue to be spanked. And as far as American userbases go, you'll see the proverbial paradigm shift starting in August if not June. Games sell systems. And yes, I know quite a few people who own cubes. You have to look beyond the 6th graders. Melee is still the number one party/multiplayer game with students at UCDavis here in California. My best buddies (between 18 and 26) all come over and prefer Melee and Soccer Slam to Halo and Fusion Frenzy. It's just a matter of preference. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: BradPierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:27:01 04/23/02 Tue "I just have to look at the big picture. I just have to accept that if this is what it takes for them to make the games they do - I say bring it on." How does a lack of hype, advertising, and actually giving out information make better games? Hell, if that was the case, Nintendo would be the trend setter, and not the outsider. And Kevin, while I appreciate your utter devotion to Shigeru, I am sorry to say that he doesn't do everything at Nintendo. At least he'll take some interviews. What this comes down to (beyond game quality, Nintendo's "legendary" status, or anyting else) is that Nintendo is like the grumpy old man who won't budge. And I'm sorry. That attitude cost them dearly in the PS1/N64 generation. Make all the excuses you want, but their stubborness hurt them, and put them in the race for 2nd, instead of being the industry leader in the console race. You are right, Kevin. I'm not worried about Link and Mario, and I don't think anyone in their right mind should be. But those two games bring up a scary thought for me, and one that makes me absolutely loathe Nintendo's overly secretive nature. What happens when Zelda and Mario have had their "Gamecube moment?" Will they resurrect old franchises like Kid Icarus, Earthbound, and Punch-Out! Where Mario and Zelda can carry themselves on their name (everyone knows Mario and Zelda), older franchises, or worse yet, NEWER franchises need a strong backing. If you hear about a game called Marionette at a trade show, you need proof that this game is a new franchise worthy of Nintendo lore. A trade show launch is absolutely brilliant. But I stress once again that the current state of video gaming is where once you bait the hook, you MUST constantly make the gamer want to bite. Nintendo does this swimmingly (pun intended) in May and August. What about the other 10 months? Nope. They let their worm dabble in the shallow waters where no one can see, let alone take the bait. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:55:12 04/23/02 Tue Brad - I thought we were finished? [i]How does a lack of hype, advertising, and actually giving out information make better games? Hell, if that was the case, Nintendo would be the trend setter, and not the outsider.[/i] A) Nintendo [b]is[/b] the trend setter and B) I din't mean those things physically assisted in the development process, silly. I meant that they're a small price to pay IMO for the worlds' best games. :p As far as what the future holds, I see no reason to worry. GameCube is a solid 2nd place console the world over already - and that's without being available in europe yet. As the games come out, we'll see that second place look less and less significant. But like I said on our former ditched topic, Nintendo is a Letterman and Sony is a Leno. One is legendary, yet the other is currently the pop culture icon. As time goes on, 'Cube will look more and more like "Lenoman." It hasn't even been a year since launch. And I don't think Shiggy does everything. I know he is the head of all the major games, though. And what he does tell me about his upcoming games - I believe. He has quite the track record. Lets' turn this over to the board, man... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: KevinCube [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:57:15 04/23/02 Tue EDIT:: "Didn't" Above post^^^ [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Inner-Roundtable #2 Author: Bradpierce5 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:37:37 04/24/02 Wed I want the last word! [ Post a Reply to This Message ]