Squad depth -- SW6.doc

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Date Posted: Friday, December 20, 02:37:49pm
Author: eganonoa
Author Host/IP: pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net / 108.18.149.21
Subject: Squad depth

Some funny comments below related to some of our new and a prospective signing. Andersen is a failure because Diop's currently doing so well. ESR is a failure because we have better options right now in the middle. We shouldn't buy Ferguson because we have Muniz. That kind of stuff.

I think rather than an indication of failure on the part of any player we have, these sentiments are actually coming out of a major success we have now, namely the ridiculous strength of our squad. If Andersen, for instance, can't make it back in because Diop is playing well, is it really a waste of 25m? Is there something wrong with having Muniz and Ferguson lined up for when Raul is gone? To have Castagne and Wilson/Adama there when Tete and Nelson are out for months?

To my mind, we should be aiming to replicate that across the team. More situations where we have 15-25m players fighting to get into the side (like Castagne, Berge before Lukic's injury, ESR now that Berge and Lukic look so good, potentially Andersen now) not less.

So much better to be a side where big money signings have to fight to make an impact, than where they can just walk into a place in the first 11. Proper healthy competition where everyone has to up their game. Marco seems to have an incredible ability to keep players motivated even when they aren't getting starts (see e.g. Wilson). He's allowing us to build in a way I don't think we've ever seen and, to refer to the discussion on best-ever teams, put together a side where it isn't just Haynes, Leggat, Mullery, Cohen, Bentley, Macedo and a bunch of also-rans, but a real team capable of competing across multiple fronts.

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Replies:

Re: Squad depth: Great post agree entirely, our new signings have been excellent and our squad is so much stronger. (NT) -- Honest, Friday, December 20, 03:23:08pm (host5-81-118-152.range5-81.btcentralplus.com/5.81.118.152)
Is that a serious question? If Anderson who cost 25 million can’t get a game because he isn’t as good as what we already have, is that a waste of 25million? Yes of course it is. We didn’t spend that kind of money for a reserve. He was bought as a first choice player. Same for esr. You can’t spend 60 mil on two players who by your admission, make the team worse. Still time for them to improve though. (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 03:29:30pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
- Absolutely serious as it shows the absurdity of caring about player cost. In today's game there simply isn't anything like a "reserve". You need two players per position and to buy the best players possible for each in order to foster a competitive environment and minimize quality drop-off taking into account form, fitness and tactical need. It doesn't matter which one of those two players is performing best in any given moment, so long as both players can perform well when called upon. (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 03:48:13pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
  - You don’t think we should care about cost? How can you assess if someone is good value without factoring in costs. Ok let’s do it your way. Forget the money and assess without it. Are they good signings, no they are worse than what we have. Anderson wouldn’t have been signed if tosin had of stayed. Doubt anyone wants to see him play ahead of diop either (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:09:02pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
    - That's correct. I don't think we can merely say "player x cost 25m" and decide. If player x cost 25m and player y is keeping him out despite player x performing at a decent level when called upon then cost really doesn't matter. Look at Castagne. Our most expensive full-back signing at 13.5m. Had a good season but lost his place to Tete. Is he a failure because he was more expensive than Tete but ended up not first choice? He's there when we need him. It's all that matters. (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 04:21:42pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
      - If being a reserve/back up/ just incase player isn’t deemed as failure, when you was bought in on big money, to be a starter, then what is. What do you class as a failure. Because it’s obviously not being good enough for the first team, so either you think every player in the world is a success, or you judge it on another metric. (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:28:19pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
        Who is "a reserve/back up/ just incase player"!? Competition, causing every player to raise their game, is why we signed Castagne when we had Tete. It is why we signed Diop when we had Tosin. And on, and on. (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 04:37:57pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
- To theoretically model it: assume, inc. cup games, we play 45 times a year. Left winger (LW) 1 plays 2/3rds of the time, LW 2 plays 1/3rd. If LW 1 is amazing and averages 8/10, while LW 2 is only OK and averages 5/10, we get an average of 7/10 from the LW position. If LW 1 and LW 2 are both 7/10 players, we also average 7/10, but with added insurance (i.e. doesn't matter how many each plays) and potentially lower cost (in that an 8/10 player might be so good as to be prohibitively expensive) (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 04:02:48pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
- Andersen *was* brought in to start, and until his injury he *was* the starter. Now he is returning to fitness and Diop is playing well, this is a good thing in squad building. How is that a waste of money? Andersen will probably become the starter again too. In any case, evaluating value for money for a player can't be done at a point in time, it needs to be looked at over an extended period. (NT) -- Jungle J, Friday, December 20, 04:07:20pm (cpc124440-croy27-2-0-cust52.19-2.cable.virginm.net/77.101.86.53)
  - So you agree he was not bought in for the reserves. Do you think he is better than diop? (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:10:59pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
    - When fit and in form, yes. (NT) -- Jungle J, Friday, December 20, 04:24:01pm (cpc124440-croy27-2-0-cust52.19-2.cable.virginm.net/77.101.86.53)
      - And that’s your opinion and you are entitled to. I’m willing to guess that’s a minority opinion, and stats certainly favour diop, as we concede less goals when he plays over Anderson. (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:30:38pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
        I’d be amazed if that was a minority opinion. Silva’s team sheet on Sunday will have Andersen on it - one of the few players who Silva will pick on class over form. He’s so important to how we want to play. The stats are meaningless over so few games vs different opposition. (NT) -- ASPT, Friday, December 20, 10:01:57pm (114-129-187-208.ip4.superloop.au/114.129.187.208)
    - I think it's impossible to argue if you still believe there is such a thing as a "reserves". There is no such thing. There is a squad with the expectation that any given player can play at any given moment when needed. It's important to refer to the discussion below on the best Fulham teams and the points raised why the Haynes-era team never made it to the level that the premium talents could have. Andersen at 25m was not brought into be a "reserve". But then again neither was Diop at 15m. (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 04:33:12pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
      - Are you one of those who believes transition is new method in football and not just a fancy name for counter attack? Non first teamers are reserves. You can call it something else but that’s what they are. You make out like reserves didn’t have exepectations to be ready at any given moment when needed. News shock they were. So call it what you want but it’s all the same. And no I don’t think any big money signing who is worse than the player he was intended to replace, is a success. (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:43:34pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
        Is Harry Wilson a reserve player or 1st teamer? Berge/Lukic don't start every game, are they 1st or reserves? Muniz or Jimenez? Traore? 15 different players have started for FFC this season, Castagne will make 16. I would argue only Cuenca of those 15 is counted as a "bench" player right now - everybody else is up for consideration to start and MS picks based on fitness, form, and tactical fit. The idea that Andersen is a "reserve" because Diop is playing well is kind of strange. (NT) -- Jungle J, Friday, December 20, 05:13:46pm (cpc124440-croy27-2-0-cust52.19-2.cable.virginm.net/77.101.86.53)
        Argument doesn't work here. We used to have reserve teams and leagues because a 1st 11 was almost static with others as mere backups. Now we don't because the game has changed. Last season 493 players made starts in the league last year: just 20% started 75%+ of their team's matches. The average was 16 starts. Last season Tosin started 18 in the league, Diop 16; the year before 23 vs 21. Who was the "reserve" in that relationship? If Andersen replaces Tosin why should we expect that to change? (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 07:38:30pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
- The model matters because it's pretty much how we are now approaching squad building. The Diop and Andersen position is a good example. We paid 15m for Diop two seasons ago. Factoring in inflation, that's about 19m this summer. Anderson was reported to be 25m. So we look like we're effectively signing two players who we don't expect to be THAT far apart for one position, much like we have Tete and Castagne (13.5m) at right back (and thank God we do given the news today!) (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 04:09:35pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
  - But you are forgetting who he replaced, diop and tosin were cheaper than Anderson combined, and both better players imo. (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:13:26pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
    - I'd agree if Tosin was sold or left without us trying to sign him. But he didn't. He left. We signed Andersen to fill a blank spot left by him and that was the cost to do so and not have a drop-off in quality. From that moment onward it doesn't matter one bit that Andersen was more expensive than Diop if the only reason Andersen loses his place is because Diop fills in so well during an unforeseen injury that Andersen can't just walk back in. (NT) -- eganonoa, Friday, December 20, 04:28:04pm (pool-108-18-149-21.washdc.fios.verizon.net/108.18.149.21)
      - There is a drop off in quality though. Stats don’t lie. And as to diop only getting in through Anderson lack of composure and injuries, think more than a few were disappointed when diop was dropped after Anderson came in as he was one of our better players. (NT) -- Hg, Friday, December 20, 04:35:08pm (cpc141402-brnt4-2-0-cust971.4-2.cable.virginm.net/86.9.199.204)
        What are the stats you’re using? Keep reading diop is better statistically, but which stats? You also have to factor Anderson will help a lot in an offensive sense with his passing. As it stands in fine with either depending on who we play. People also need to stop saying someone is a failure or a bad signing after 4 months, players are signed for 4+ years for a reason, only after that period can you really say if anyone was a success or not. (NT) -- Henry1879, Friday, December 20, 05:34:48pm (croy-26-b2-v4wan-167127-cust1611.vm24.cable.virginm.net/82.38.22.76)

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