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Subject: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Washington Lion (Ready for more)
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Date Posted: 11:49:09 11/25/24 Mon

The Empire State Bowl has quickly become a highlight of fall: A season-ending rivalry game, a rivalry that makes sense, between two often evenly matched teams. The Lions’ victory last year spared them a winless season; this year’s won them a share of the championship.

But even when there’s less at stake, it’s a lovely valedictory, a meaningful final game for the seniors, a day to connect with football friends one last time before winter. And typically a competitive contest: before Columbia’s current four-game streak, the teams split the previous 28 games 14-14; More than half of those games were decided by a single score.

The Lou Little Trophy with Georgetown also has appeal. There’s far less history between the schools, but it’s New York-Washington. D.C. is full of alums, many tend to show up for what’s usually a pleasant late summer day, and this one appreciates there being at least one game every other year that doesn’t involve an hours-long drive. And, I imagine, vice versa.

It makes me miss the Liberty Cup. Also a trophy game, dedicated to the at least 82 Columbia and Fordham alumni, including two Rams players, lost on 9/11. There’s not a great deal of series history, but it’s the out-of-conference rivalry that makes the most sense, with the greatest potential for growth – and the greatest possibly of drawing fans who aren’t affiliated with either school: Who Owns New York? Not least, it’s likely better for the student-athletes of both schools to have at least one local road game every other year.

When consultant Rick Taylor recommended Columbia suspend the Fordham series after 2015, he wasn’t suggesting it be permanent. The Lions had just completed a second winless season, were on a 21-game losing streak and had lost six straight to the Rams.

“Columbia can play Fordham,” he said. “I’m not ducking Fordham. But they should not play Fordham when Fordham has three games and scholarships under their belt. ... I’d take Fordham on anytime in the middle of the season when I got games under my belt.

“I would hope that sometime in the next decade, Fordham comes back on the schedule. Because that will prove that we were alright, and Columbia has succeeded.”

The 2015 meeting, Coach Bagnoli’s first game with the Lions, was Columbia’s best attended of the year. Since then, Columbia HAS succeeded: Five winning seasons in the last seven; a 40-30 record including 6-3 against the Patriot League. Fordham in that period is 33-38 including 0-3 against the Ivy League. This series would have been competitive from 2017 forward.

The point isn’t that Columbia should put Fordham back on the schedule now that the Lions appear to have regained the upper hand. Both programs have had and will have ups and downs. When the Rams were beating the Lions regularly, most everyone else was, too. Perhaps they should never have taken them off.

Fbschedules.com lists games with Lafayette and Lehigh next year. If Columbia continues to schedule Georgetown, the first open date will be 2026. The Liberty Cup game would look good in that spot.

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Lion Rooter
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Date Posted: 13:04:40 11/25/24 Mon

I could swear i heard "Far Above Cayuga's Waters" while I read this post - absolutely true - it was a great day for Columbia and heightened by this rivalry. There really was a big visitor contingent at the game and I have to begrudginly admit the Big Red band is super - great sound and traditional look !

IN fact I am a tad confused - the Empire state bowl is glass - and the Ivy title bowl is silver ? I think i saw both in post game photos.

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[> Subject: Beating Fordham is easy


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 13:16:07 11/25/24 Mon



https://www.espn.com/college-football/game/_/gameId/401654470/fordham-dartmouth

See?

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[> [> Subject: Re: Beating Fordham is easy


Author:
Lion Rooter
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Date Posted: 13:52:33 11/25/24 Mon

I follow the Fordham teams - this year everyone beats them - they have two wins - but not too long ago they were a very good program - they were in the championship game not too long ago.

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[> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Old Lion (bad blood)
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Date Posted: 14:50:39 11/25/24 Mon

The Fordham series ended with some very bad blood, including headhunting suspicions targeting Columbia transfer QB Nottingham, who took some very bad late hits. I also have a bad memory that Sean Brackett was never the same after a hard hit that he took against Fordham in his first game of his junior year. At the time Fordham’s President wanted to go all in as a scholarship program. And I never liked the fan experience with no visiting stands. So I would prefer that the series continue as a vestige of the past.

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[> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Washington Lion (Bygones)
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Date Posted: 15:19:08 11/25/24 Mon

That was one president, a few coaches and many teams ago.

There's still only the one grandstand, though.

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[> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Dr. V
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Date Posted: 16:02:10 11/25/24 Mon

Back to the Empire Bowl, this Columbia fan wants to thank the Big Red for bringing their marching band to NY. I come from Big Ten country. Marching bands add pageantry and exemplify some of the characteristics of the game of football in that a presentation by a marching band involves teamwork, coordination, precision, skill, practice and some dedication. I wish we had one.

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[> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
RedWin
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Date Posted: 13:49:47 11/26/24 Tue

I think the Empire Bowl game should be moved to NYC every year because Cornell actually draws better in the City in late November than we would in Ithaca. Secondly Cornell has two campuses in NYC with Cornell Tech Park and the Medical School. In reality the money to support Cornell athletics is in NYC and not Ithaca especially in late November. Finally this coming weekend is the Big Apple Classic hockey game at MSG, so playing both games within a week's time in NYC just makes sense.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Old Lion (NYC)
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Date Posted: 15:45:16 11/26/24 Tue

Cornell brings out a nice crowd to Baker Field. I would be surprised if Cornell ever agrees to it, but it would make a lot of sense.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
RedWin
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Date Posted: 11:38:42 11/27/24 Wed

A bunch of alums were also attending the hockey game at MSG this coming Saturday. It's a waste to play the game in Ithaca in late November, which is the best time of year to visit New York City. This could also be a recruiting event for Cornell seniors to travel to the City for job interviews prior to the game and then stay for the weekend. Most of our students blow off classes during Thanksgiving week anyways. If properly promoted I think we could easily draw 10k plus to NYC for this game. We would raise more money and it would be great recruiting for both Cornell and Columbia. Go Big Red!

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Uptown
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Date Posted: 12:26:31 11/28/24 Thu

I have Fordham ties. The shame was how the ridiculous CU band crossed a line with some of their comments about Fordham and Catholicism. The idiot band leader went from the band's typical (and often funny) irreverence to insult. He thought he was being funny. He was just being an arse. FU v. CU should be a great rivalry. But my Lions band ruined it. Seems a lot of stuff gets ruined on Morningside Heights.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: If we are thinking about the same thing


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 19:00:58 11/28/24 Thu


The underlying subject matter was 1,000 times more outrageous than the joke.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If we are thinking about the same thing


Author:
Uptown
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Date Posted: 07:51:42 11/29/24 Fri

Except I don't know anyone who was there who thought the joke was funny. BTW, what happened to our band?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If we are thinking about the same thing


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 09:37:39 11/29/24 Fri


Saying that the joke wasn't funny is one thing. Saying that it was offensive to Catholics is quite another.

The joke was no more "Anti-Catholic" than the movie "Spotlight."

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: If we are thinking about the same thing


Author:
Washington Lion (Sounds right)
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Date Posted: 13:19:00 11/29/24 Fri

In fairness, I don't remember any of the jokes being funny. There was a modest band at the two home games I attended this year. Perhaps a work in progress.

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[> [> Subject: Playing at a venue that would get the biggest draw...


Author:
Go Green
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Date Posted: 11:23:17 12/01/24 Sun


.... was pretty much the way the league operated for most of its history. Eventually, the "visitors" got sick of being a traveling show and demanded home-and-homes.

Sure, playing in NYC might bring some short-term benefits. But it would only be a matter of time before Cornell sees the unfairness of playing Columbia on the road every year.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Playing at a venue that would get the biggest draw... I Hope They're Grateful


Author:
An Observer
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Date Posted: 16:39:39 12/03/24 Tue

Clearly, having Dartmouth play at Yale Bowl and Palmer Stadium every single season, year in and year out, is unfair from a competitiveness standpoint.

But the athletic directors at Dartmouth, Yale and Princeton are all consenting adults. What they choose to do in the privacy of their bedrooms -- I mean, boardrooms -- is their business.

The operative word here is "business."

Dartmouth, I presume, concluded that traveling to New Haven and Central New Jersey every single season, while a negative from the standpoint of winning football games, was an attractive business proposition. Like a lanky cornerback facing Derrick Henry running at him full speed, sometimes a sound business decision can be made quickly, even if it does not appear so to the uninitiated.

I would hazard a guess that the policy was reversed not when a Dartmouth AD suddenly realized, "Hey, this is unfair!" but rather when the crowds and the gate at the Bowl and Palmer had shrunk to the point where the pie was too small to tolerate the potential negative impact on the W-L record.

Nobody changed their mind because of fairness, equity or doing the right thing.

They changed their mind when the dollars dried up.

As in so many elements of college football, the Ivies pioneered what eventually spread nationwide to the Alabama's and Texas' of the landscape. Then, having spread our seed, we withdrew to comfortable chairs in our secret societies and eating clubs to watch the mighty Crimson Tide host Mercer University.

I hope that all those pretty blonde coeds and their drunk tie-wearing dates at Bryant-Denny or Darrell K. Royal are mindful that their beloved autumn ritual was created entirely by the people they now disdain: those detested ivory tower Ivy Leaguers at Yale and Princeton.

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[> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Washington Lion
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Date Posted: 19:44:32 11/28/24 Thu

This lifelong Catholic agrees with Go Green. The joke, written by a sophomore, was sophomoric. In my genuinely humble opinion, those who choose to get worked up about the jokes, and not the horror that inspires them, are making themselves part of the problem.

Also, it was during the inaugural Liberty Cup game. They met 13 more times before Columbia begged off. It didn't ruin the rivalry.

I don't counsel it, but it's the kind of thing that, in fact, tends to fuel rivalries.

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[> [> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Old Lion (band)
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Date Posted: 08:00:43 11/29/24 Fri

the band had become an embarrassment—not funny and harmful to morale of the team.

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[> [> [> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
Uptown
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Date Posted: 08:46:48 11/29/24 Fri

Remember "Lose, Lions lose?"

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Empire Cup, Lou Little Trophy, Liberty Cup …


Author:
RedWin
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Date Posted: 14:49:06 12/03/24 Tue

The biggest draw is hosting the game in NYC every year. Half the students are gone for Thanksgiving break and who wants to play the game in Ithaca in late November? There has been nearly zero promotion for the Empire Cup game and Cornell still had a nice turn-out. If our joint athletic departments got off their A and promoted the game it could be a nice fund raiser for both programs. The money to support Big Red athletics is in the NYC metro area and not Ithaca. Both teams could do something fun like agree to have their kick-off teams comprised of all seniors, who are not starters, etc.

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