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Subject: At least Reno has... Author: Go Green [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 14:40:35 10/12/25 Sun In reply to: Ivy Guru 's message, "Re: Dartmouth defeats Yale with last second 51 yd FG" on 12:00:40 10/12/25 Sun ... beaten Dartmouth in Hanover. Surace has not (at least not as a coach). [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth defeats Yale with last second 51 yd FG Author: Tad [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:20:33 10/13/25 Mon Come on, GG… it was 30 years ago!

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth defeats Yale with last second 51 yd FG Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:03:02 10/13/25 Mon People were so angry at Tosches in 1995 that the NCAA said "NEVER AGAIN!" and implemented overtime rules for the 1996 season.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Finishing In The Top Quartile Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:52:01 10/13/25 Mon GG, you are so predictable and I mean that in a good way. It's reassuring that there are still some phenomena we can count on in this crazy world. In 2025, few things are as they used to be. Except you. Keep on keepin' on. On the subject of the 1995 finale, I'll defer to others if they pipe up on the topic, but I think you're completely alone on this. You've got two rings but, as you've said in the thread about Dartmouth differentiating between sole and shared championships, yours were both shared titles. Nothing to apologize for (OF COURSE!) but, in an eight-team conference, that's only finishing in the top quartile. In an academic environment where today every single Ivy League student has survived an 8% admission rate and HYP students a screen of about 4%, it's tough to shift gears and celebrate finishing in the top quartile with the same enthusiasm. Tosches' 1995 players have rings which also say, "Champions," but they finished in the top 12.5% and they know it. Nobody respects Tom Osborne more than I do and part of his legend is the 1984 Orange Bowl decision to go for two, but I would have made the decision as Tosches. I suspect that the vast majority of Ivy fans would have gone with Tosches' rationale. The bleating from fans of the 37.5% rooting for an opposing coach to make a poor decision is so disingenuous, the rest of us recognize it as such.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: There were guys on Dartmouth's team who shared my opinions Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:20:26 10/13/25 Mon As you might remember, the 1996 Dartmouth team went undefeated. Quite a few stories were written about that team both at the time and over the years. There were players on the 1995 team who made clear in those stories that they were very unhappy that Princeton elected to play for the tie in 1995. And the returning players (i.e., the guys on the 1996 team) also made clear that they used that as motivation in the off-season. If it means anything, I have three rings. 1990 (co-champ with Cornell), 1991 (outright) and 1992 (co-champ with Princeton). I don't differentiate between them. Even if Princeton had attempted to go for the win and failed in 1995, they still would have received rings as well (although my understanding is that Princeton gives gold rings for outright titles and silver rings for shared titles).

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: So did Bubba Smith Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:40:32 10/13/25 Mon Bubba Smith and his Michigan State teammates also made very clear that they were very unhappy with Notre Dame's decision to play for the tie in 1966. https://vault.si.com/vault/1966/11/28/an-upsidedown-game

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Finishing In The Top Quartile Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:40:36 10/13/25 Mon If I am reading your prose correctly -- and I welcome a correction if I am not -- you are reporting that Bubba Smith of Michigan State as well as Big Green players on the 1995/96 Dartmouth teams were upset that the OPPOSING coach chose to play for a tie. The OPPOSING coach is supposed to make decisions that make players on the subject team unhappy. That's his job. Your offered evidence is more material which supports that Tosches made the right call. I wonder how often the players on the 1983 Nebraska team look down on their empty ring fingers and wistfully wish they had some jewelry to adorn their hand. That's why we admire Osborne, because he made the decision that the MIAMI players wanted. Ara Parseghian was coaching Notre Dame, not Michigan State. It's his job to make Bubba Smith unhappy.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sports Illustrated had no skin in the games, but... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:23:10 10/13/25 Mon SI has made clear that it believes that playing for a tie is unsportsmanlike--if not downright chickensh*t. https://vault.si.com/vault/1988/01/11/why-oh-why-did-pat-stand-pat-auburn-coach-pat-dye-meekly-settled-for-a-tie-against-syracuse-and-the-only-loser-was-the-sugar-bowl They quote Pat Dye (who made pretty much the same decision as Toches) after the 1988 Sugar Bowl as saying "If Syracuse wanted to win, they should have blocked the field goal." I'm sure Auburn was plenty proud of him for that. The legendary Dan Jenkins SI ripped Notre Dame unmercifully after the 1966 game agaisnt Michigan State parodying the ND fight song. I can't find the original article, but here's the reproduction: Cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame Equal the echoes, deadlock her name! Draw a volley cheer on high! Level the thunder from the sky! What though the odds both even or small, Old Notre Dame will tie over all! While her loyal sons are marching Onward to victory! And 1983 Nebraska most certainly got rings for winning the Big 8. At least they can say that they were part of a "go for it all" program...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Should also have added that... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:28:44 10/13/25 Mon While the Ivy football was no longer part of the national discussion in 1995, I'm sure that if Tosches played for the tie in the 1960s, SI would have strongly criticized him as well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: "Bud, Man Looks Into The Abyss, There's Nothing Staring Back at Him. . ." Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:59:59 10/13/25 Mon GG, your analogies seem relevant to you, but they're terrible. For example, Parseghian was criticized for the equivalent of taking a knee late in the fourth quarter and accepting a tie as his desired outcome, rather than making any attempt to advance the ball with time left on the clock for such a choice. He had the option of playing for the win, but still being #1 ranked if he ended up with a tie. He was criticized for not even trying for a win. On the contrary, Tosches had time for only one more play and his decision came down to: I can attempt a challenging field goal from a sharp angle to be outright champion, or I can attempt a more challenging play for the end zone which, if successful, makes me outright champion. I work in an industry where every single decision is about assessing risk and reward. The people who cannot make the corret decision on this two-dimensional spectrum the vast majority of the time first lose their jobs, then their careers. Blowhards who talk about being manly and what is or is not "chickens--t" get carried out on a stretcher all the time. Toshes was faced with two options, each of which attempt, if successful, would lead to his team being outright Ivy League champions. If you or anybody else would have made a different decision, that's your prerogative. But I can tell you, guys like you don't last in the risk business. I had a great boss years ago who took me aside one afternoon and said, "Look around this trading floor. See the salesmen? The trading assistants? The secretaries? They all depend upon you to get paid. If you don't make good decisions, none of them get paid." It was like a movie, listening to him with the chaos of the floor around me. I got the message. Steve Tosches' decision make his 1995 team outright Ivy League champions. You follow this analogy, right? Steve Tosches got the trading assistants and the secretaries paid.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: And I'm sure the Princeton offensive linemen loved him for it Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:03:26 10/13/25 Mon Clearly, Tosches didn't think that they could move the ball six feet when it mattered. And it's probably not a coincidence that Tosches didn't come close to sniffing another Ivy title.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: And I'm sure the Princeton offensive linemen loved him for it Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:25:05 10/13/25 Mon I picture you and the finance bros from the 1995/96 Dartmouth teams sitting around with beers in your hands, joking and laughing about what a p---y Tosches was for attempting the field goal, knowing full well that if any of them made an analogous risk/reward decision at work, they would be escorted out of the office holding a banker's box with their personal effects. Yeah, yeah, everybody's a tough guy when it's another man's masculinity under discussion. Try that at your job with $100 million of your firm's money and see how long you last. Let's try a thought experiment. Tell me about one situation in your career, even just one, where you faced a lower risk way of achieving a goal as well as a higher risk way of achieving a similar goal, and you chose the higher risk path because it was more manly and you didn't want to be "chickens**t" in your job, to use your term. Seriously, have you ever had faced a decision like Tosches did in YOUR JOB and gambled with your firm's money, people or reputation because you had, as you said about the 1983 Nebraska team, a "go for it" attitude?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Football is different Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:55:55 10/14/25 Tue Football doesn't work the way you think it does. You can explain the logic all you want. But if other people/teams are calling you chicken---, it's hard to overcome that. Fifty years after the Notre Dame-MSU game, Jenkins was still calling Notre Dame "chickens---." https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17550816/notre-dame-fighting-irish-michigan-state-spartans-play-fifty-years-game-century You can argue that Parseghian did fine after 1996. But Pat Dye and Steve Toches weren't the same after they played for their ties. I have no doubt that Lyons, Murphy, Bagnoli, Estes, Sidlecki, et al. were too polite to criticize Tosches in public. But what do you think they said (or their assistants said) to recruits in private? "Hey All-State Lineman, when the game is on the line do you want to go for it? Or do you want to kick a field goal?" Again, look at Tosches' record after 1995. Even assuming for the sake of argument that playing for the tie in 1995 was the "correct" decision, it was totally a Pyrrhic victory for the Tigers. Again, worst case scenario- Princeton ends up co-champions if they go for it and miss. But like Tom Osborne, they can say that they run a "go for it all" program. And that matters to high school kids.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wish this Board had an edit feature.... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:41:33 10/14/25 Tue ... did fine after 1966,

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Wish this Board had an edit feature.... Author: Ditka [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:17:33 10/14/25 Tue I see what you did there, slipping in reference to trying to “date” a beautiful woman. Whether she was wearing an orange dress or is a certain gymnast heading back to LSU, I understand the analogy to Tosches. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/celebrity/articles/livvy-dunne-steals-spotlight-sporting-182330484.html

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Football Is Not That Different at All and That's Why We Love It Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:57:21 10/14/25 Tue I interpret your response immediately above to read, "No, I have not once in my professional life made a decision regarding risk and reward of the type for which I am excoriating Steve Tosches." Not once. Football is not as different as you think. One of the reasons that we love sports is because it can be a microcosm of parallel situations in other spheres of our lives, but sports plays out in public and in two- or three-hour mini-dramas. Sure, football coaches recruit against each other by challenging each other's masculinity, talent or other personal aspects. You don't think that happens at top tier law firms? Big Wall Street law firms competing for the best talent out of Yale and Stanford? You don't think that happens when a three-man law firm in El Paso or Albuquerque is trying to attract a prized recruit from joining a competing three-man firm in town? What about Goldman Sachs recruiting against Morgan Stanley? KKR and Apollo? KKR famously knowingly overpaid for RJR Nabisco simply to defend their franchise as the buyout firm with the biggest appetite for risk. They closed on a bad deal (for $25 billion, a record at the time) because they wanted to show everybody they still had the biggest balls in the business. There are examples of bravado, specifically male bravado, driving decision-making all around us. Sales and trading, investment banking, corporate law, insurance underwriting, indeed any industry where any participant risks capital or reputation in hopes of a profitable return, which is basically all of them. Outside of business or finance, the same phenomenon exists everywhere. Politics? In case you haven't noticed, American foreign policy is now being conducted this way. Away from the headlines, this goes on everytime some guy steels his nerve and goes to chat up a woman more beautiful than he has any logical expectation of dating. In part, he's trying to show his buddies and himself that he's got what it takes. So I'll ask you again. In any sphere of your life, have you ever made a decision of the type that you expect from Steve Tosches?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I think your premise is flawed for several reasons, but... Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:12:47 10/14/25 Tue If you're asking me if I ever took the coward's way out to end up with essentially the same result, the only thing that's coming to mind is my decision to go to law school rather than try to make it as a screenwriter in Hollywood. I took a screenwriting class at Dartmouth for fun. I absolutely loved it. Far and away my favorite class. But I was too chicken to commit to it as a career and opted for the "safer" career. I had two frat brothers who tried the Hollywood thing. One had limited success, the other pulled the plug after four years or so. I've enjoyed the law, but every Academy Awards show I watch, I can't help but wonder "what if...?" Mrs. Go Green had classmates who indeed gave Hollywood a try and they had tremendous success (including winning Oscars). But back to Tosches, you seem to be thinking that there's some financial benefit to him and/or his staff for winning an outright title. While I've seen stories about some big time college coaches having incentives in their contracts for winning X games, or making X bowl, or finishing X or higher in the rankings, I've never heard of anything comparable for the Ivy coaches. Did Tosches and/or his staff get an extra $20K (or whatever) for getting an "outright" title? If so, that's total news to me...

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Each of Us Will Have to Live with Our Decisions Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:39:06 10/14/25 Tue You have read my last two posts exactly wrong. Read them again. I didn't ask if you ever chose the chicken's way out. I asked if you ever chose THE HERO's way out. I asked if you have ever lived up to the standard that you impose on Tosches. And your answer, so far, is that you too chose the chicken's way out. You loved screenwriting and could have at least given it a try, a few years to see if you could get some traction. If you failed in Hollywood, you could have always fallen back to Plan B for a legal path which, though safe and remunerative, is nobody's idea of a thrilling life, often not even an interesting career. How can you criticize Tosches for taking the safer road of a field goal attempt for the outcome of an outright Ivy League title? He declined a chance for Osborne-like hero status, but his players today wear the gold rings you say Princeton players receive for winning a sole championship. Meanwhile, what have you declined? A chance to pursue the career and life of your dreams. For what? A steady paycheck. You have got to stop holding Steve Tosches to a standard that you yourself have failed. Look in the mirror. Ask yourself whether the reason you are so critical of Tosches' decision-making is that you see in it your own risk aversion and that eats at you.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I've taken risks, if that's what you're asking Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:30:17 10/14/25 Tue I've taken on cases that others thought were were dead losers. Most of the time, the others were right. But I won a few of them! I was on my firms' hiring committee for a while. I can't recall going head to head with other firms--even though I'm sure we were in competition with other firms for a few hotshot law students. I'll reiterate my earlier assertion that your premise is flawed in several respects--of which is that football is just different from other parts of life. If Lyons had done what Tosches did, I would have been unhappy with him as well.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: On Manliness and Honor Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:56:20 10/15/25 Wed For a knowledge professional whose career depends upon consuming and understanding complex documents, your reading comprehension skills are poor. (1) I did not ask you for an example where you were a coward or a chicken -- on the contrary, though I appreciate your offering the example where you declined to chase your dreams in Hollywood for the safer and more boring path of corporate law. (2) I did not ask you for an example where you simply took a risk. Again, I appreciate your story of accepting and pursuing cases other lawyers declined but, frankly, that's not taking a risk as much as it is picking up crumbs others did not want. (3) I specifically asked you, again and again and again, for an example where you chose the path of "manly honor" in pursuing a goal the hard way when an easier option existed. I don't know why you can't understand my request. You have criticized Steve Tosches on this message board for the two decades it has existed. And yet you yourself cannot offer a single snippet where you lived up to your own standard. GG, you're a fraud. You criticize another man for not taking the riskier, tougher path in the name of manliness, or honor, or sportsmanship, but you yourself have no examples of ever doing so either. Your protestation that football is different from any other pursuit in life is bulls--t and you should know it. We love sports because they reflect life, not because they are separate and distinct from life. Teddy Roosevelt profoundly told us that the credit belongs not to the critic, but to the man in the arena. Steve Tosches was the man in the arena in 1995 and he made his choice. As a result, his players were outright Ivy League champions. You are only a critic, not the man in the arena. That you once played football for Dartmouth is irrelevant. You have not once in your life stepped up and made the type of choice you demand of Tosches. Don't criticize Steve Tosches when you have done nothing in your life to earn the credibility to do so. You have not earned that honor.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: If you’re putting me in the same company as Dan Jenkins Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:48:25 10/15/25 Wed I’ll happily take it! :)

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Indeed… Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:12:36 10/15/25 Wed Notre Dame students collected and burned the sports illustrated issue that had Jenkins’ column crucifying the Irish after the 1966 game. I get called a fraud. I stand with Jenkins.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth defeats Yale with last second 51 yd FG Author: M3 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:16:41 10/13/25 Mon By people I assume you mean Go Green the Princeton baiting/hating machine?

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Dartmouth defeats Yale with last second 51 yd FG Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:23:39 10/14/25 Tue GG prides himself on holding onto grievances, no matter how long or illogical. He hasn't revisited this one for a few minutes so it's time to remind everyone. I expect any 1995 P football players are just looking at their rings and smiling.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Likewise Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:22:38 10/14/25 Tue When the 1996 Dartmouth guys look at their rings, they will undoubtedly recall how fun it was to get revenge on Princeton by closing Palmer Field with a 24-0 beatdown of the Tigers. Princeton brought back all their old players for the occasson as well!

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: You were complaining about 1995. Try to stay on topic. Author: sparman [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:44:09 10/15/25 Wed

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: As I said earlier Author: Go Green [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:54:49 10/15/25 Wed Several players on Dartmouth’s 1996 team made clear that they were very unhappy with Princeton’s decisions in 1995 and used that as motivation for the 1995-96 offseason. Needless to say, it worked.