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[> [> [> [> Re: I liked it a lot more than I thought I would -- Esmerelda, 22:48:10 05/29/08 Thu [1]

I prefered Romo when he was playing with Lee.

Ah, but that's the thing, he was never playing with Lee. Lee was playing with him. I wouldn't go so far as to say Lee's some sort of machievlian genuis, cause I don't think it's as concious as that but Romo I think is right, Lee doesn't just haplessly fall into these positions.

I don't Romo was there to represent loss in the wider sense, to represent the civilians without hope, to the extent they're hauling dead cats about with them.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I liked it a lot more than I thought I would -- Chani, 11:32:46 05/30/08 Fri [1]

Ah, but that's the thing, he was never playing with Lee. Lee was playing with him

I disagree with you. I don't believe that Lee played with Romo at all in season 3. It was obviously the other way round so I didn't take this episode as a twist but as a forced change in the the dialectics between the two characters. I didn't like the sudden role reversal.

As for Lee wanting the positions, yes probably he did and that's why Romo could push the right buttons. Romo used to be a sort of Puck who worked like a catalyst.

I do feel that they have changed the character to make him fit in the actual plot in a how-can-we-bring-back-this-one-whom-the-fans-like kind of way.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I liked it a lot more than I thought I would -- Esmerelda, 18:21:02 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I don't see Lee as being pliable as some do, because he's shown before he'll turn on someone if he disagrees with them even though he seemed completely in their thrall before, with Roslin being the main example. I don't think he was ever 'taken in' by Romo, he actually agreed with his aims. So it makes sense to me what we learn here, that Lee knew about Romo's background all along cause I don't think he was ever taken in by the lights and whistles of the Romo show.

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[> [> [> [> Really? I didn't see that at all... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 01:55:15 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I thought it was a very honest portrayal of two men completely at the end of their tether, needing to rally out against something/someone, and using the situation with Caprica to force the catharsis. They're lifelong friends and I think that going into it, they both knew nothing would change how they feel about each other, but it needed to be done for reasons other than what they were "actually" "fighting" about.

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[> [> [> [> [> Oh! And, point the second... -- anyasbuttmonkey *suddenly on a roll*, 01:59:56 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I think in terms of their complex relationships with Roslin (Bill) and Caprica (Tigh), there's a comparison in that both could potentially put the Fleet in extreme jeopardy.

I would worry about Tigh being in charge of Galactica, but with Lee as Prez - and the fact that I doubt this situation will continue for longer than an episode or two - I think it's an extremely short-term solution. It's not Tigh's storyline of being left in charge and frakking things up this time around; it's Adama's storyline of finally realising and confronting his feelings for Laura, and recognising the foolhardiness of risking the entirety of the human race. No matter how stupid it is to send the fleet off with Tigh and leave him there alone, it'd be more stupid - in the "bigger picture" - to leave the whole Fleet at risk. At least with Lee and Saul, humanity stands a chance.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Really? I didn't see that at all... -- Esmerelda, 09:47:31 05/30/08 Fri [1]

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the fight, cause I laughed at the flailing lamemness during it. As I said on my lj, do people acutally fight like that? Sure? Does it make for good tv? IMO, no.

No matter how stupid it is to send the fleet off with Tigh and leave him there alone, it'd be more stupid - in the "bigger picture" - to leave the whole Fleet at risk

Or, he could suck it up. He's just found out Tigh has been having sex with a prisoner of war, which, I'm sure, qualifies as a potential war crime. I just find the whole thing, criminally stupid and verging on the morally abhorent. Lee being President is not going to stop Tigh, all it means is he wont directly try and physically harm him cause he's Bill's son. Of course, you and I know Adama and Roslin will be back in a couple of episodes, but we have to go on the assumption the characters don't know that.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> It would only be a war crime if the sex was non-consensual... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 14:31:46 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I figure if Cottle discovered Caprica was pregnant, he would've asked about the father (WHY OH WHY did we not get to see that whole scene, that's a huge plot-point discovered offscreen - I would happily have sacrificed any of the scenes from the Leland/Romo storyline for that). Whether or not Caprica told him it was Tigh, she would've at least confirmed that this wasn't a Thorne-type situation.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I dont think it works that way -- Esmerelda, 18:16:29 05/30/08 Fri [1]

becasue the consent of prisoners can't be fully determined, becasue they are prisoners. I'd be shocked if having sex with prisoners wasn't ilegal in international law.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think what we're all forgetting, though... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 20:30:01 05/30/08 Fri [1]

Is that while Caprica may be treated like a prisoner, she's not actually a Prisoner of War - she handed herself over to the Colonials, she's put her lot in with them; Caprica Six has defected. It's a similar situation to when Athena first showed up in the fleet in season 2.

But, if we go down the route of her being a Prisoner of War, nothing in the Geneva Convention (as reliable as Wikipedia can be about it, anyway) expressly forbids sexual relations with a PoW. Physical and mental abuse, for sure, but I don't think the Saul/Caprica situation can be called "torture" by any stretch of the word. It's a consensual relationship, however icky or wierd. Remember, Helo and Athena were in the same situation way back when and nobody batted an eyelid (on this side of the TV screen, anyway).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think what we're all forgetting, though... -- Esmerelda, 21:48:43 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I can't imagine that if it was revealed tomorrow high ranking British soldiers were having sex with Iraqi prisoners, there wouldn't, and rightly, be a shit storm over it. The fact Caprica wasn't actually caught does not stop her from being a prisoner or war, she's an enemy combatant, in the brig. She hasn't given her alliegence to the humans the way Athena did, making her essentially a citizen in the human fleet. IMO BTW I'd argue Athena was also a prisoner of war until the beggining of season 3, as she was a former enemy combatant in the brig. The difference between Athena and Helo is they had a pre-established relationship and every visit we saw was supervised.

It's just....it's wrong, it's an abuse of power and while we're watching a tv show that shows us what's really going on the characters aren't, and the fact Adama just handwaves it, bothers me, a lot.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I think in terms of the press, then yeah, a shit storm would be appropriate... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 01:22:16 05/31/08 Sat [1]

But I still say that Caprica isn't a PoW, she's a defected agent, and as such the rules of conduct change. Here's the definition of a PoW from the Geneva Convention:

Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:

* 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
* 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
o that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
o that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
o that of carrying arms openly;
o that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
* 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
* 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
* 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
* 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
* 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I kind of agree with Esmerelda -- Chani, 10:18:11 06/01/08 Sun [1]

It is a problem. We know that Saul was seeing Ellen, and we know that Caprica has been made, designed, to seduce males; we also saw her first punching Tigh and then kissing him so the sex must have been consensual, she may even have initiated it, and Tigh may be the most vulnerable one actually but she was still a prisoner and the simple fact that Tigh were supposed to question her but turned the camera off points out he committed something reprehensible. He lied and crossed a line with a prisoner.

I don't think we can compare Tigh to Helo at all because it isn't about forming a relationship with a Cylon, it's about taking advantage of one's position that is a position of power. And it isn't about being in a time war either. Were Saul a cop or a prison warder it would be the same. Remember the prison warder in Oz who fucked Ryan O'Reilly ?

Helo and Athena got together on Caprica, they were already a couple, and Hera wasn't conceived when she was in the brick but a long time before that and as Helo didn't even know she was a Cylon. Helo may be guilty for falling in love with a Cylon and still loving Sharon as she was in the brick and finally marrying her, but he didn't use his position to visit a Cylon pretending to do his job while he was actually screwing her as she was kept within the walls of a prison.

Having said that, we don't know what Caprica told Cottle or Adama, but I bet that they both knew it wasn't a rape. Bill has always been very indulgent when it comes to Saul's weaknesses and mistakes so I am not surprised that after he expressed his anger he finally didn't punish him. It's totaly in character.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> You see, my approach to it is that Caprica, in the strictest sense of the word, isn't a prisoner... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 17:00:00 06/01/08 Sun [1]

Which is where our thoughts diverge :) I think it's one of those "agree to disagree" situations, but that's why I love this show!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You see, my approach to it is that Caprica, in the strictest sense of the word, isn't a prisoner... -- Esmerelda, 16:51:01 06/02/08 Mon [1]

See, as long as she's in the brig, IMO, she's a prisoner, cause she's you know, in the brig, under lock and key.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Mmmmm.... -- Chani, 18:15:09 06/02/08 Mon [1]

She chose to be there but she's a prisoner still. Just liek Faith was a prisoner when she was in jail in L.A...

You're wrong my little cousin, don't fight! ;- )

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[> [> [> Grace was wonderful -- Chani, 19:24:36 05/29/08 Thu [1]

The ways he cried...heartbreaking. Is it me or did she look like she was losing her mind in the end?

Suddenly Kara is sane and Athena wouldn't be? The world is upseid down.

Lee stuff always tend to bore me, especially when it's so predictable.

I wasn't moved by Adama leaving because he couldn't live without Laura...I don't know it seemed forced...but I liked the fact he put Tigh in charge, and that Saul told him how much it was a disaster the last time he ruled.

And really, a Cylon in control of the fleet, it's just great!

But where is Helo? I miss Helo.

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[> [> [> [> Lee stuff bores me... yep, that sums my feelings up too! -- anyasbuttmonkey, 02:02:32 05/30/08 Fri [1]

I think it was important for Helo to have been whisked away on the baseship, otherwise where would the tension in Athena's storyline have been? Plus, leaving Helo out of the Fleet means we're left with Saul, Kara, Athena, Tyrol, Tory and Lee (I have no idea where Anders is at this point) - 4 Cylons, 1 unknown and 1 unknown for completely different reasons. Should be interesting :)

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