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Date Posted: 09:47:54 09/23/02 Mon
Author: 3Strikes/You challenge me young pups! This is good!
Subject: #8-Alternate source for Xander's powers.
In reply to: 3Strikes/Sorry about the late answers. Crappy Voy 's message, "MONDAY EDITION-PLEASE POST HERE" on 09:37:54 09/23/02 Mon

Your multiple entreaties about giving more clues to Riddle #8 lead me to reconsider whether the cross-over did occur. One of the big reason, it had too was as a source for Xander's powers. The other was, as Butrcup discovered, as a means of survival. Why did Xander survive the Blast ? I still think Cordelia intervened in Grave. But she might not be the source of the powers after all. Think back to Grave and what Giles said. What did he does Willow with ? Make sure to include *everything* ! What did she hit Xander with ? Solve this chestnut, and you'll have the alternate source of the sight. What's the name for someone who has the sight ? : )
A Spike riddle. Webdeb don't answer! Doesn't he remind anyone of the Regent ? : )


>
>
>
>
>
>ANSWERED: 4,5,6,7,8,10,11,12,15 PARTIALLY ANSWERED:
>1,2,3,16 and WTP's #7.
>
>
>1)Why did Xander believe he could help Faith ?
>REVISED: THREE must lead, TWO must deceive. What
>will be the result ?
>ANSWERED by Gentle Spirit: Hubris and lack of
>self-knowledge.
>NEW: PARTIALLY ANSWERED by multiple posters and RJA:
>One of the three is Love. Not characters.
>Motivators/triggers.
>
>RJA said: "So the motivators are love, guilt/grief and
>another. The deceivers are *faulty* clarity and
>hubris, lack of self knowledge?
>Since I'm missing the last, this is an incomplete
>picture, but from what I can glean, Anya will
>die/leave. Xander can't deal with this, blames himself
>etc etc. Now the problem I get to is how he has a
>vision, and what it is of. How does one acquire the
>sight? Or is it just borrowed.
>Either way he has a vision, sees something terrible
>happen to Buffy? (I think), and in his mind the only
>way this can be averted is if he becomes a vampire
>(although Im not sure why, but it must be linked to
>his human status or maybe vamps other status). He
>thinks there is no other way, hence faulty clarity.
>The other deceiver would be his belief that his love
>could transcend his vamped state, or woul compel him
>to act in the right way. Kinda like the inverse Grave
>where he thinks his love can bring Willow back, or the
>Faith example. But in this case its the deceiver
>because it cant - VampXander wont act in the way he
>predicted, and it was never the only choice he could
>have made.
>Close?"
>
>3Strikes's comments: "Ah, Grasshoper! Now we get to
>the meat of the argument. You got 4 of the 5 right.
>The 3rd motivator is easy: what kind of
>feeling/emotion would the kind of *faulty* clarity
>Muad'Dib experienced evoke ? That's the 3rd motivator.
>The sight/vision. Yes. How does one acquire such a
>*gift* ? If you answer #8, you might find someone else
>who was in a similar situation. *g*
>Yes, on the Buffy vision, But how does it relate to
>the Guilt/Grief ?
>Actually, in pratical terms, I don't really know why
>Xander would believe becoming a Vampire could be of
>help to Buffy. My guess is the increase in strength,
>greater resiliency. But it must be something huge.
>In any event, the practical why is interesting but
>secondary to the fact that it does happen.
>Very good on the faulty Clarity. Deceived by the
>vision (think Wesley onATS), and his hubris (belief
>that he holds the only solution), Xander makes a
>lethal mistake. Whether he actually believes he can
>control the vampirism is a very very interesting
>question. Does his hubris extend so far, or does he
>know that he won't be able to control it, and resigns
>himself to become evil to help Buffy. How does this
>make sense ? Well, Vamp Xander might not have a
>choice in helping Buffy. Think of the answer to #6.
>Would Xander accept not only becoming a vampire, but
>an evil monster as well, to help Buffy. I don't know
>the answer to that! I'll be surprised too! But it
>would take a horrible set of circumstances to make it
>happen. Horrible.
>
>
>2)Are the *Bad* PTBs always Bad ? Are the *Good* PTBs
>always good ? Though the answer to that has already
>been clearly stated. But not where you might think.
>NEW: If you've heard the piping voice, and been
>blinded by the white, you know what I'm referring to.
>PARTIALLY ANSWERED by lele: "They're probably the
>same. Wolfram and Hart's higher level partners
>probably have some connection to the same PTB that
>guides Angel. Blinded by the white? Are you referring
>to the Angel episode where he gets lilah to get him
>into a meeting with the senior partners(in order to
>get Connor back) only to be met by that scary little
>girl in the white room(didn't she say something
>like-"poor little angel wants his baby back..."
>
>3Strikes's comments: "What happened there to prove
>that The Bad PTB's agenda was greater than simple
>*evil*. And I'm not talking about what they did for
>Angel. What was revealed?"
>
>RJA added: "The girl revealed that they like trouble,
>but hate chaos. They showed Sahjahn being made
>immaterial, incorporeal - so this suggests they don't
>just want evil, they want their own brand of evil. I'm
>still missing something though.
>
>3Strikes's further comments: "Very good. Exactly
>right. What does it mean for S7? Who else might they
>not be taking a liking to ? What will they do about
>it?"
>
>
>3)Is Lurky the only purveyor of Afterlife in town? How
>*Tragic* would it be for one character to avail
>him/herself of the alternative ? NEW: Maybe I should
>have uncapitalized Afterlife. Afterall, it's such a
>common occurence. Always? Well, maybe not.
>ANSWERED by Ramses (though she didn't believe)and
>Monkey:
>
>Monkey said:"Now, what your cryptic speculation
>suggests to me is that maybe Xander will deliberately
>get himself vamped. So maybe Xander concludes again
>that he knows more than he does, or has a better idea
>than he really has, and decides that if a vampire is
>needed, he should try to become one. (Your question
>about whether Lurky was the only purveyor of afterlife
>is what suggested to me the idea that Xander might not
>only get vamped, but do so deliberately.
>
>3strikes's comments: "Excellent! What would it take
>for Xander to do it? Under what circumstances ? For
>whom? When? Why?(I mean causality here). Why is it
>particularly *tragic* for Xander?"
>
>4)Is the map the territory ? Is the Playground in your
>mind's eye the backward symbol or the reality ?
>ANSWERED by RJA and Butrcup:
>RJA said: "The playground scene is in Lie to Me, not
>Restless - the songs her mother sang her. "Run and
>catch". And also "Also, if this is right, its also the
>exact same playground as in Restless, although no one
>is sitting on the swings. But dark light, inverse. I'm
>pretty sure it makes sense, even if the actual facts
>aren't right."
>
>Butrcup said: "And then we have the playground.
>Drusilla, speaking to Angel: "you can't hurt me, can
>you?" and "the lamb is caught in the blackberry
>patch." maybe these things aren't even relevant,
>though... the map is not the reality. and the
>playground is the representation of the past, not the
>actuality. so what happens in the playground?
>drusilla finds a boy, talks to him about her mom, and
>intends to feed on him, but angel intervenes.
>Drusilla reminds angel of the pain he caused her, and
>knows he won't let himself hurt her anymore. he tells
>her to leave or there will be trouble.
>
>3strikes's comments: "Perfectly right! Drusilla is the
>Shark and you've found the right playground. Exactly
>what I was talking about!
>
>
>5)Is a Shark evil ? Is an Evil Shark with a *higher*
>purpose Evil ?
>ANSWERED by RJA and Butrcup:
>RJA said: "Drusilla? She could be a shark with a
>higher purpose. While Evil because she is a vampire,
>if her actions largely result in good things (maybe
>Spike?)then she may be on the side of good after all.
>If she sires Xander, the knights will cross (as you've
>said). She sings songs of sorrow - much like
>Cassandra. The poor little thing has no idea what's in
>store. But as pointed above its not songs, its visions
>that she has no control over. The playground scene is
>in Lie to Me, not Restless - the songs her mother sang
>her. "Run and catch".
>
>Butrcup said: "Okay, a few more thoughts. (see, once
>I get started, it's hard to shut me up.) So we know
>(or think) now that Cordelia and Drusilla sing songs
>of things to come. It's interesting to think that
>Drusilla may well have ended up like the colonial girl
>that Skip introduced Cordy to, whose visions killed
>her, if she hadn't been vamped! So if Dru's visions
>are from the PtB, then that would be her *higher
>purpose*. So Drusilla would be the shark (I think this
>was said already) with the PtB using her (sort of) by
>giving her visions.
>
>3strikes's comments: "Perfectly right! Drusilla is the
>Shark and you've found the right playground. You've
>also bingoed the higher purpose! If she's forced into
>it by the visions, how could Drusilla, who's been
>*twisted* into evil by Angelus, be evil even if her
>actions appear horrendous? Very well done!"
>
>6)Who sings songs of things to come ? Why do they sing
>of sorrow?
>ANSWERED By Butrcup, RJA, WebDeb, Tracey and Monkey:
>
>Butrcup said:"So i think it's Cordy. She has visions
>of things to come, and they're sorrowful in order to
>prevent that sorrow - or some greater sorrow."
>RJA said: "Drusilla?" "She sings songs of sorrow -
>much like Cassandra. The poor little thing has no idea
>whats in store. But as pointed above its not songs,
>its visions that she has no control over."
>WebDeb said: "Spike - who in his "insanity" will have
>the ability and Cordy, who was previously discussed.
>Tracey said: "Buffy and Faith? (they've had, and
>should still be having, prophetic visions). And
>Cassie, from the episode "Help"?"
>
>3Strikes's comments: "There should be one more, but
>who won't be
>apparent for awhile."
>
>Monkey completed the Riddle: "Combining the above with
>a question you ask someone below about "why should
>Xander believe a prophecy someone else tells him?" I
>would conclude that the final, as yet unknown seer is
>Xander himself."
>
>
>7) Let me rephrase old question 7. Upon further
>reconsideration, it is the weakest part of the
>speculation. Very possible. But not the only
>possibility. Upon the road of Fate, the Knight
>Descendant and the Knight Ascendant were Bound to
>meet. Asked the Child of Black and gold: "What did you
>give for Love ?" "Death and Life, my soul," answered
>the other. Asked the Childe of Gold and black: "What
>will you give for Love ?" "Life and Death, my soul,"
>answered the other. Which is the greater sacrifice ?
>ANSWERED by Ramses and Monkey:
>Ramses said: "Xander and Spike? One gains a soul for
>love one gives one up? The white knight sacrifices
>everything?(This would define Romance. Not romance
>novel but literary Romance.)"
>
>Monkey said: "The implication is that one of the
>Knights is Spike and one Xander, travelling in
>opposite directions -- vampire to human, human to
>vampire. Here's one idea for an alternative
>motivation. If you are correct about the symmetry,
>then presumably they both do it for love, which is one
>reason you might have said that my surmise with
>respect to Xander's motivation was wrong. The
>implication would be Xander becoming a vampire with a
>soul for Buffy, so that Buffy can in some sense "get
>what she deserves" -- a phrase broad enough to cover
>an awful lot of territory, which I can't narrow down
>at the moment. And of course Spike would have given
>up death, and Xander life, for this love.
>
>3Strikes's comments: "The matter of the soul is *very*
>much in question. And it's not necessarily about "what
>she deserves." In Xander's case, I strongly believe
>it's going to be a case of what he believes (alas
>mistakenly) "she needs desperately." I guess you've
>come far enough for me to complete the riddle: Spike
>gave up death (as a true vampire) to give Buffy his
>life (as a souled vampire) and his soul (you forgot
>that innocuous part, didn't you? : ) ). Xander will
>give up his life (as a living man), his soul (forgot
>about that one too!) for Buffy in order to give her
>his death (his existence as a vampire to save/help
>her). Unfortunately for Xander, I think that Vamp
>Xander will have other ideas about this arrangement.
>Who's going to do the siring?
>
>Monkey answered thus: "Drusilla?" "If she sires
>Xander, the knights will cross (as you've said)."
>
>
>8)Did you catch the cross-over last year ? If you
>haven't, don't worry. It was gone in a blast. NEW: Do
>you believe in invisible hands ?
>
>ANSWERED by Butrcup (and her clever husband : )
>):"Okay, what are the clues we have so far? Blast
>(which happened on BtVS). Invisible hands. From AtS to
>BtVS. Someone was in a position to cross over.
>Something that didn't make sense can be explained by
>the crossover. It has some connection or parallel to
>how Xander will be acquiring the *gift* of sight. This
>smacks of Cordelia to my clever husband (and to me).
>She was in a new "position" after her ascension, and
>could probably have been invisible if need be. She
>acquired her visions because someone who loved her had
>them and died. We know that the PtB weren't too happy
>about that, either - they "missed" that when it
>happened, but they've "got a handle on life and death"
>stuff, according to skip. Something that didn't make
>sense last year: Xander got *blasted* by all that mojo
>by Willow, but didn't seem to be affected at all, save
>being knocked down. he didn't even have to clear his
>head. So what if Cordelia, now being in a position to
>know more than
>just what she sees first-hand, was sent (or went
>herself) to protect Xander and thus prevent his death
>and the death of the whole world?? Skip certainly was
>in a big hurry to get her to ascend!!
>
>
>
>9)"Gotta be with movin' forward," says Xander in
>Restless. "Like a shark with feet..." *Forward* ?
>Where are they both moving forward to ? Where are they
>going? For that matter where are we all going, though
>by different means ?
>
>10)If Holtz had been vamped, would he have still hated
>Angel/Angelus ? Do you think Angelus will have family
>problems when he comes to Sunnydale ?
>
>ANSWERED by RJA:"Someone stated before that Angel
>still felt something strongly for Buffy when he became
>Angelus, and he also hated his father after being
>turned. So that suggests that hate transcends (and
>maybe perhaps love turns into hate) being made into a
>vampire. If Xander was made a vampire, would his hate
>for Angel and Spike cause problems? And if Angelus
>came back to Sunnydale, would there be a grandson who
>hated him a great deal?"
>
>3Strikes's comments: "Hehe! Perfect answer! Now plug
>it in one of the riddles, and think how juicy that
>scene would be!"
>
>
>11)This clue is hidden in plain sight. Blatantly,
>insolently even. But in the Jossverse, applying the
>concept defined by the clue could result in some
>seriously eldritch geometry. : ) Unravel the clue and
>apply the concept upon the fulcrum of Restless, and
>watch a 7 years tale unfold.
>ANSWERED by 3Strikes: "Supersymmetry," both mirror and
>true, short and long.
>
>12)That Xander would lay down his life for Willow,
>Anya or Buffy is a given. But would he kill the
>innocent for one of them ?
>ANSWERED by Lele: "I think he would under the right
>circumstances esp if the 'innocent' was himself."
>
>13)What are these "things you can't protect yourself
>from?" If you knew them, it would blow your mind.
>
>A riddle based on what I hope happens. Too juicy to
>ignore, but won't necessarily make it to the screen.
>14) Rage, Passion, Hate What song precipitates their
>fate ? Rage, Passion, Hate What Moon to set their
>course ? Rage, Passion, Hate What star to find their
>way ? Rage, Passion, Hate Will they strife ? For whose
>fate ? Rage, Passion, Hate.
>PARTIALLY ANSWERED by RJA and WebDeb:
>
>RJA said:"I don't get all of this. But rage,passion
>and hate would be three people? Or three *creatures*,
>although not necessarily evil souless creatures. So I
>would guess maybe Angelus Spike and Xander."
>
>WebDeb: "If Angel, Spike and Xander represent rage,
>passion and hate, then these will be their motivating
>factors: Angelus-Hate, Xander-Rage, Spike-Passion."
>
>15) When is Blindness a blessing, and Clarity the
>worst kind of Blindness? When is a Mistake not a
>mistake, and why will the difference be a cause for
>tears ? NEW: Muad'Dib understands the curse of Clarity.
>ANSWERED By Webdeb and RJA:
>
>WebDeb said: "Blindness is a blessing when you remain
>in ignorance of the truth staring right in front of
>you."
>
>WebDeb said: "A Mistake is not a mistake when it is
>done intentionally. A mistake not done intentionally
>is usually caused by a person's wrong judgment or
>misunderstanding, (ed. note: or an accident). A
>Mistake would be a cause for tears when they REALIZE
>the Mistake is due to their blindness and by that
>time, it's usually too late to correct."
>
>RJA said: "The worst kind of Clarity would be knowing
>what is to happen, yet feel you can't change it. Muad
>Dib saw terrible things ahead, yet all his choices
>seemed to result in terrible consequences. Drusilla
>had clarity, before she was vamped, and knew what her
>fate was to be. I guess in that situation, blindness
>would be a blessing. So for someone to see/know what
>would happen would be a curse (ed.note: if they
>thought they couldn't change it),but it's also a form
>of blindness if being convinced you know what is to
>come obscures the fact that you can actually change
>it."
>
>3Strikes's comments: "Perfect Answer. You've nailed
>Clarity exactly. Now put it together with Webdeb's
>Blindness and Mistake answers, use the answers to
>other questions in the larger context, and watch as
>the Dominoes start falling.
>
>
>16)3 of a kind. Third shall he be. But third, third
>and third ? We shall see.
>PARTIALLY ANSWERED by Monkey, and RJA:
>RJA said: "Is the three of a kind Angel(us), Spike and
>Xander again? But Xander might not turn out like them?
>
>3Strikes's comments: "Xander might not turn out like
>them? Or will he ? In any event, that's only part of
>the answer."
>
>17) Which Questions are related ? Make the right
>associations and finish the game.
>
>WtP's question:
>7. Knights . . . Shmites . . . don't forget -- it's
>all about the goats! Besides, if it was Knights, then
>the most important question would be "who's your
>sire?" Either that, or who is going in which direction.
>
>PARTIALLY ANSWERED by Monkey:"Win lose or draw, I'm
>also willing to bet that WtP's question about "who's
>your sire" is referring to vampire sire, not king.

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