UBF's Bible abuse -- RSQUBF discussion forum

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 04:17:28 04/29/05 Fri
Author: Chris
Subject: UBF's Bible abuse

On Brian's website you find the following passage:

4. Why do many people in UBF track numbers of people?

Numbers 26:63 "These are the ones counted by Moses and Eleazar the priest when they counted the Israelites on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho." (NIV)

Matthew 14:20,21 "20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children." (NIV)

Acts 1:13-15 "13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. 15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)..." (NIV)

Counting people was a common practice in the Old Testament. The book of Numbers is filled with such accountings. The New Testament writers also mentioned counting people several times and often carefully recorded who was present at certain events. Through these counts, we can see that God's work was real and that it expanded. It also gives credibility to the gospel accounts, since we know real people witnessed the events. UBF takes Jesus' command to make disciples seriously, so often numbers of people are counted as one indicator of God's work and as a way to keep a historical record of events.

I'm quoting this because it shows the typical Bible abuse and selective reading by UBF.

First, it shows Brian's new line of defense. If he has anything to say, he randomly picks verses from the Bible that seem to support his positions and makes no or very few further comments. That looks very humble and spiritual. In reality, it shows a great disrespect of the Word of God. He uses it just like a quarry, picking pieces where he wants without discussing the context and the overall Biblical teaching. That's very typical for Bible based cults.

But let's look at this in detail. Brian says "Counting people was a common practice in the Old Testament." Many things were common practice in the OLD Testament. That does not tell us whether these things were good and are still appropriate in the time of the NEW Covenant. All kinds of offerings and stoning people were also common practice, so should we still practice this? Obviously even Brian could not claim that they were common practice in the New Testament. But he does not ask the question why it was only common practice in OT, and not in NT. If something was common practice in OT but not in NT, this is an evidence that would rather make me suspicious about whether this practice should be used today.

Second, even in OT there are passages that STRONGLY CONDEMN the kind of tracking numbers that UBF performs. For instance, in 1Chronicles 21, God considered it a grave sin that David numbered Israel, and punished him severly. Particularly the motivation for counting people has to be questioned. In UBF, you count UBF members. You want to show that your chapter or your organization is so big. This creates separation and pride.

Brian completely suppresses these very strong and clear warnings about counting and numbering people in the Old Testament. That is a very dishonest and selective dealing with the Bible.

Now, look at his quotes from the New Testament. "The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children." and "In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)." Brian uses these quotes as evidence that we should track numbers of people. But actually, they are the exact opposite. Do you note the word "about" in these sentences? This word proves that the Apostles did NOT track numbers. They simply made an estimation from their memory in order to tell their story. The first story was about the bread miracle. It's simply a difference whether you feed 5 people or 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread. That's all this number was about, the factor of 1000 (maybe there was also another symbolic meaning, but it was not meant as an exact number). In the second example, the number just gave an impression about the situation, it just explains who the "group of believers" were at that time. The reader shall understand that they were not simply the 12, but on the other side not the thousands like after Pentecost.

The book of acts describes the spreading of the gospel. If numbers were that important, you would expect it to have numbers on every page. But it is called the book of acts, not numbers. I am only aware of two other numbers mentioned, the 3000 who became believers when Peter preached at Pentecost and another 5000 when Peter and John preached in the temple. However, both numbers are affixed with an "about." They are simply there to show the overwhelming power of the Holy Spirit, how He convicted the people. From then on, no numbers are mentioned any more. You would expect that they now start numbering, but actually, they stopped numbering. Likewise, in the letters, you will find no numbers. So, the NT actually discourages keeping track of numbers.

Then Brian concludes that UBF counts numbers because "UBF takes Jesus' command to make disciples seriously." So, all other churches who don't count numbers are not serious? The early churches who didn't count numbers were not serious? And UBF is serious because it counts numbers?

Another twist that is apparent in Brian's defense of keeping track of number is that he is already answering the wrong question, defending something that is only part of the problem. The real problem is not that UBF keeps track of numbers, but that they make out number goals for their members to reach, just like the number goals in Communist regimes. Who is UBF to set these numbers? Isn't God the one who knows the numbers? UBF's prayer topics mainly consist in numbers. Now show me where such prayer topics are "common practice" in either OT or NT. I know of NO case where anybody in the NT prayed for a number goal. The numbers mentioned were usually completely unexpected, and just documented. They did not pray for these numbers before.

The real issue is not that "many people in UBF track numbers," as Brian suggests, but that:

- Numbers of attendants in SWS, BS, conference are tracked (not by "many" as Brian claims, but by ALL chapters)
- Number goals for chapters and individual persons are defined by leaders
- All members have to pray for these general and personal number goals

And another issue:

- These numbers of people (and offering money) are tracked, but they are never published! If you want to give the glory to God, then where are these numbers? I would really like to see the exact number of members in all chapters in the world and the development of these numbers since 1961. But these numbers have never been published. So why does UBF track these numbers? The ICC was at least consequent and proudbly published their numbers (which were 100-1000 times higher than in UBF). In reality, they are ashamed to publish their numbers because they would show that UBF is a complete failure in their self-chosen terms of evangelistic "effectivity."

And it is similar with all other issues that Brian "covers." For instance, the issue of arranged marriage is much more than simply "leaders proposing marriage partners." The problem is not only that marriage partners are proposed or arranged, but that this is the only choice you have in UBF. If you try to find a marriage partner on your own or follow a direction from God, you will get into serious problems.

Brian defends things that are only a small part and not the core of the real problem, and he does so by quoting the Bible selectively. None of his Bible interpretations can pass a thorough analysis. He has no interest in really learning from the Bible, but the Bible is only a means to justify UBF practices. I call this Bible abuse.

I hope I can find time to write a complete critique covering of his claims and Lee's "spiritual heritage." Unfortunately, I need to work the living for me and my family and have other commitments; I wished I had so much time as many UBF chapter leaders who do not need to work but live from offering money.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Why Does UBF Have Numbers Goals? -- PECAS, 12:49:40 04/29/05 Fri