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Date Posted: 01:12:06 10/10/04 Sun
Author: Brian Karcher
Subject: Re: UBF Doctrine
In reply to: Tom F 's message, "UBF Doctrine" on 09:31:45 10/08/04 Fri

Tom,

Below are my responses to your various questions and statements. These are my own words, not words dictated to me or reviewed by someone else. Regarding the question of doctrine, Chris Z. does make a valid point on his website regarding UBF doctrine, which is not universally compiled together and formalized, at least in English. This is one of the challenges facing our ministry.

>1. You can lose your salvation after you are saved. If
>you fall out of favor with God, meaning if you disobey
>your Shepherd, then you are not saved anymore. Ron
>Ward, Pastor of UBF Chicago, once told me that "you
>can never be sure of your salvation". He then told me
>that "Samuel Lee often questioned his status with
>God". Does anyone else in UBF believe this? I don't
>really think so, but it would be nice to hear it from
>someone in UBF.

a.) You say that UBF teaches "you can lose your salvation" and that losing your salvation is related to disobeying your shepherd. In regard to losing your salvation by disobeying your shepherd, I do not adhere to this in any way, nor have I ever heard this taught or spoken in our ministry.

b.) In regard to losing your salvation, I have not heard this teaching emphasized in UBF. However, the question of "Can I lose salvation?" is a valid one and one that is worth looking at, as it challenges our belief system. This is often a hotly debated topic among Christians. While I don't think that engaging in endless "Calvanist vs. Arminian" debates is productive, I have considered this issue. I have read several arguments for both sides. Personally, I am not convinced that the "once saved, always saved" teaching is entirely Biblical.

I am convinced, though, that Scriptures contain enough evidence to warrant assurance of salvation and enough warnings to warrant "self examination" in regard to our salvation status. I believe the statements you mention above by Dr.Samuel Lee and Ron Ward are not related to losing salvation, but to self examination. I for one never want to be so complacent and comfortable in my salvation that I presume God must allow me to enter his kingdom after death.

Apostle Paul was quite certain of his salvation, yet he constantly examined his salvation. He directed Christians, not to work for their salvation, but to work out their salvation. Philippians 2:12-14 says "12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. 14 Do everything without complaining or arguing," (NIV)


>2. Marraige by faith. This is a twisting of the
>scriptures concerning Rebekah and Isaac. This also
>incorporates another UBF idiom, "grab the blessing".
>When the blessing is there, grab it! The way it was
>explained to me sounds like we are to jump at the
>chance for an opportunity when it presents itself,
>whether or not we believe it is the right thing to do.
>(As long as we obey our Shepherds.) Just grab it!
>Anybody want to explain either of these ideas to me?

a.) I agree that if you only study Isaac and Rebekah, you would not fully understand marriage or what it means to marry by faith. To understand marriage by faith, or rather, marriage for the glory of God, you would need to study more than just the Isaac and Rebekah account. I've listed the various verses I studied before marriage here: http://www.priestlynation.com/marriagebyfaith.html

b.) Since you bring up marriage, I would like to point out that marriage is more of a process of forming a relationship, rather than a single event. People of the world marry in quite unGodly ways. Christians are left with many struggles and questions about how to marry. Some Christians just go along with the worldly ways of dating, etc. But there are those who seek alternatives to the dating scene common among both Christians and non-Christians. To marry by faith is an alternative to establishing a marriage in a wordly way or in a traditional way. There are some more comments and references here: http://www.priestlynation.com/marriage.html

c.) You mention the phrase "grab the blessing". I have heard this as well, though mostly in contexts other than marriage. This blunt phrase reflects the passionate spirit of quite a few missionaries. While we must live with our own decisions in the end, and we certainly should not blindly follow people, there is merit to taking hold of God's blessings and making the most of every opportunity. The following verses do not refer to marriage directly, but they might help explain the thinking behind the phrase you mention: 1 Timothy 6:12; Ephesians 5:15-17.


>3. Spiritual order. We all know the routine: sheep are
>obedient to their Shepherds, who are under their
>fellowship leaders, who are under their chapter
>directors, who are under the UBF director, or
>something like that. Now, I am not saying that there
>is nothing wrong with churhces or ministries having
>leaders that make decisions. Every church needs
>leadership. However, the relationship given here is
>one way, and is not bi-directional. It does not serve,
>but it is served. Anyone want to comment on this from
>UBF?

a.) Spiritual order refers to submitting to Christ and to one another out of love. This is what is taught in the UBF chapters I've seen. (Ephesians 5)

b.) You mention obedience. Yes, learning obedience is a critical part of a life of faith. Even Jesus learned to obey, as in Hebrews 5:7,8. The church has the responsibility to teach obedience, as in Matthew 28:18-20.

c.) You mention a one way relationship, arranged like a pyramid. This is not the case. Though our ministry is not a utopia and not without conflicts, I see many relationships like that in 1 Corinthians 16:14-24.

Thank you for your questions. I pray these responses may be helpful.

Immanuel,
Brian

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