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Date Posted: 19:08:05 04/10/02 Wed
Author: Jess
Subject: Re: IC notes about magic 04/10/2002
In reply to: richard 's message, "Re: IC notes about magic 04/10/2002" on 15:55:01 04/10/02 Wed

>i will say this however: while this may work for you
>two Rob drew a picture and i got shot. this is in no
>way an attempt to invalidate your discussion, rather,
>instead of trying to order all of these experiences,
>that we can all agree ARE bizarre in some way, i'd
>rather try to build from the few tangible things that
>we personally have experienced.

Well, obviously we have another experimentalist in the group. (Damn their eyes! :))

>Jesse did *whatever*
>Jesse did. Photons, spheres breaking in two, whatever.
>None of us can even hope to analyze what Jesse did
>because we can't begin to atttempt to duplicate it. We
>have no idea what it felt like to him or even how he
>triggered it. We don't even know if HE did something
>or if something was done to HIM. Did he pop some sort
>of pill? Did Joe pop some sort of pill and do
>something to Jesse? WAS the lighting at the place
>wired?

Those are all really good points. I wish I had the answers to them, but I'll definitely be bringing some equipment with me the next time I see them .... I wonder if I could rig something to detect what they were doing?

On the other hand, Jesse doesn't have to understand what he did in order to do it - you don't understand your TV and you can still work it, right? Neither he nor Joe were much at explaining what they were doing, so maybe they themselves don't really know. Unless they don't want us to understand what we're doing ... so we stay weak and are manipulable ... that's a distinct possibility. I mean - Joe didn't get Chris some book he promised him, and they haven't exactly offered to teach us anything, just answer our questions with their propaganda.

>Are we trying to link these phenomena to
>mechanics, science, medicine, voodoo, God(s), spirits,
>etc.? I would argue on the subjectivity of all of
>this, but, i do know that Joe DID take ME to some
>OTHER place. Umbra, Hell, Heaven, alternate dimension,
>i don't know. HE did something but i did experience it
>and it was not that back room. i was somewhere else.

Want to tell us about it? I don't think I heard about this stuff ... and I can't understand it if I don't know what it is. What happened? What did you see? How did it feel? Could it have been perceptual rather than actual travel? Talk to us - none of us have experienced this!

As far as linking this stuff to things - I'm less attached to linking it to science than you might think. I'm not actually a scientist - I'm interested in systems and theories, the elegance of a proof, how complex phenomena can be generated from very simple laws ... and I want to know what the laws of all this are. The laws I know best are the laws of the physical world and the laws of mathematics, so that's where I'm starting. If someone can posit me an internally consistent, logical set of laws that applies to all this stuff, I'd be just as happy to try to understand things according to those rules. Hell, maybe I should go look at some old books about alchemy or something - they had all these rules about magic and shit. I just want a system to think about all this in - the things that have happened are SO all over the place that I think we need a common framework in which to understand them.

>As reckless as he's been, I think what Rob has been
>doing is the most productive way we are going to be
>able to personally understand whatever all this may
>be. Work from whatever strange-and-or-unusual thing
>has occured and try to duplicate it to some extent to
>cipher out any commonalities.

I guess I can try to talk to Gil - he hasn't really been around the last few days, and I don't know why. I really don't know what else I can do. I haven't been able to do any funky things of any other sort, though I've been trying periodically ....

He said the problem is the point - maybe he wants me to be working on some problem? I don't know ... I'm so confused.

>I also do recognize that
>who and what we are is seriously influencing how we
>are dealing with this, and that's to be expected. You
>two are acting like scientists because to an extent
>you guys are. Rob is acting like a caprecious artist
>because he is. I'm acting like i came across a funny
>passage in a book. In any case, Rob is trying to draw
>other kooky stuff. Once any of us of us can duplicate
>any of this (Rob, have you gotten anything to *occur*
>with your other attempts?) then we can try to digest
>whatever is is that Jesse *did*. So, I intend on
>exploring pain and fear. Rob is doing art. You guys
>are talking about photons and spheres breaking in two.
>Lord help us all.

You intend on exploring ... pain and fear ...? Eep! That doesn't sound like much fun. What exactly are you planning to do?

Listen - we'll get together on Tuesday and see what we can make of all this. We'll be okay - one way or another. We are smart, determined, competent, we have each other, and I will be damned if I'll let anyone get in our way.

Jess

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