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to TH thanks -- Bronco66, 17:52:25 02/08/05 Tue
for the ESPN link and posting on the Board ....
and to you too Mr. Dis-G
I, for one, appreciate your both caring enough to post and be forthright about your opinions. I think many of us have been frustrated about the Broncos inability to step into post season play. About capitalizing on the Post-Nash era it can't be said that that the Broncos haven't been close.
I believe it was JCard who so correctly posted the "what if" that surrounds that fateful day in Kezar Pavilion that BJ's (and the Bronco's) very promising future were "stepped-on" ...
When you consider the almosts this year alone it is easy to realize SCU is about 1 player away from making consistant noise in post-season play. Getting funding etc. to make recruiting better at SCU is (IMHO) the biggest key to making the Broncs from that nagging threat to the Conference "front runners" to a consistantly acknowledged #1 contender. (consider that most of the "pundits" picked the Bronco's to be dead last in the league and we were at the turn withing striking distance of 1st) ... think how different this season might be if Brandon Rohe was coming off the beach and sinking 3's
(continued below)
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Re: to TH thanks (continued from above) -- Bronco66, 17:54:12 02/08/05 Tue
(too??? long had to break in two)
Hey it's easy to "blame" the coach and as Harry S. said ... "the buck stops here" ... it is also worth noting that some lightning struck in Spokane and they have been able to soak-up the local talent, keep it, and add to it ...
not as easy to do (as you will probably agree) in the Bay Area with 5 D-I schools within a hour's drive of each other ... that does not mean that we should not try ... and thanks to boosters the Bronco program was able to add to its staff a fully paid Lloyd Pierce who has made a difference in recent recruiting and player coaching ... (and I understand that was made possible by some friends of the program stepping up financially ... trying to get double-D some help)
look at our friends on the Hilltop ... they "dumped" their coach (with a winning record) for not getting to the tourney and went on a BIG nation wide "search" ... Jessie looks like the "real thing" but the Don's of late haven't so it will take some time ... in the mean time we have a coach who has orchestrated some of the biggest wins in SCU history ... has the respect of his peers (a director of the nat'l assoc. of coaches; and at least until recently a "good friend" of Roy Williams) .... and when you read a story like that about Ethan Rhode (just posted on the official site)
MY TAKE:
how can we take the positives of where we are ... what we have ... and who we are ... and go forward ???
again thanks TH Dis-G for joining the community ...
[/long][/dry][/post]
Go Broncos!!
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one player away... -- JC, 20:23:40 02/08/05 Tue
'66, the Broncos talent level is not the problem this year. One missing player didn't lead to the mid season unraveling that has been discussed ad nauseum here. SCU had a talent edge v. Irvine, Poly, the Connecticut schools and BYU. You can't beat NC and the Gaels, play Pacific and the 'zags to a standstill and then lose to weak low mid major conference bottom feeders.
I still feel that BJ's injury was a seminal moment for the program, but that was years ago . On a good day, DD can squeeze more out a player and a team than any coach this side of RM Knight, but those moments of brillance are counterbalanced by the Irvine-type games and Pepp & Loyola Tourney losses.
I hope I'm wrong and Davey does well. He is a stand up guy, and deserves admiration and respect for the way he conducts himself and represents the program. He graduates his players, who invariably prove to be "roll model" quality citezens. He is well-regarded by his peers and was responsible for the success of the program in the '90s. A consistently good program that seemed so tantalizingly close then is not an unreasonable goal to achieve. I'm no longer convinced it will happen anytime soon.
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Re: one player away... -- THuckaby, 06:22:04 02/09/05 Wed
I can understand and empathize with all of this. Yes, we have had a rash of bad luck in recent times that sure hasn't helped us (Brian Jones' mauling by Adonal Foyle, Kyle Bailey's injury, etc.), and yes, I have no doubt that Davey is a good man, well-respected by his fellow coaches.
BUT... the bottom line remains that he hasn't gotten the results that our school warrants, deserves, really ought to get.
And enough remains enough. This has gone on far too long.
Look at it this way: you all HAVE heard the story of how we had Casey Calvary all set to sign with SCU, when Davey the good man decided he had to inform Jason Sedlock first that he wouldn't get the spot he might have, right? Calvary's Dad says sign now or Casey's going elsewhere.... Davey stands his ground, says he owes it to Sedlock to tell him first... Mr. Calvary says great, we're going to Gonzaga. We get the solid citizen Jason Sedlock, Calvary goes on to make Gonzaga history. The what ifs are not hard to imagine... Calvary on a team with Brian Jones etc.?
And this is just a famous story, one bandied about quite a bit. Who knows what other stories there are?
Look, I sure as hell don't want us to become a Florida State type sports factory, breaking rules and going on probabation. That surely isn't what SCU is about. In the story above, Davey took a stand for a principle that wasn't worth it... seems to me pretty easy to sign Calvary and tell Sedlock after. Was the order of that news worth losing the recruit for? So yes, I am happy Davey has scruples and integrity, he remains a credit to the school.
BUT DAMMIT, I am sick and tired of us being beaten so horribly in recruiting? Wouldn't you all love to have a talented team, one that doesn't HAVE to overachieve to get us any wins? Yes, Davey is great at squeezing the most possible wins out of the crappy talent we have year after year...
But enough is enough! It doesn't have to be this way. We have a great school in a great place and yes, we do have more close D-I competition than Gonzaga, but that is more than trumped by the fact we're in the Bay Area and they are in god forsaken Spokane.
Oh well... my fellow '85 alums and I have bandied this about for several years now, and believe me, my feelings are the consensus. "Fed up" sums it up, for the most part.
Time to retire, Dick. We need new blood. Our program is in the doldrums - no energy, no excitement, no hope on the horizon. They tease us with big wins, then let us down with too many awful losses. The time has come.
We want Rambis.
We REALLY want Grier from Gonzaga... that would be a huge boost for us - he's a recruiter to the max - and would really hurt them, making a double whammy to dream about...
In any case, we just need something new. Mediocrity can be accepted no longer.
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hope on the Horizon -- Bronco66, 09:43:59 02/09/05 Wed
thanks TH for the insight ... I had not heard the Casey Calvary story ... and as a long time alumn I too "long" for "the return to glory" and as I get "older" I also appreciate that SCU HAS been a program of intregrity for as long as I can remember ...
There is a great quote (for me) in 'Bronco Sundays' that has Coach Pat Malley saying to his team to remember that the SC on their jackets stands for "Style and Class" ...
I heard a USC seeming big time alumni in the SWA line at Spokane on Sunday morning complaining about their new coach's lack of "style" thowing off his suit jacket in a game ... in some ways I prefer Double-D's style "points" of kicking his thrown of jacket off of the floor onto a chair ...
and about hope ... hey I understand (from last night's Radio Show) that DD was in Lubbock watching our next jittbugging PG play ... and I think adding LP to the coaching staff will make important differences ...
DD always seems to play by the book (well the book does say you get 5 fouls ... and my mother always taught me it was a sin to waste what you are given) so I would not be suprised if there was more to hear this recruiting year --- no inside info here ... just a gut feeling ...
HEY ... my biggest request is always what am I and what are you willing to do to help the situation as it is TODAY ...
and with a HUGE St. Mary's game looming on Friday ... well
....
HEY ... thanks for bringing the discussion to the board ... I have met Kurt and for all I know he is another outstanding example of the type of student/athlete I love knowing (and bragging about) that MY university seeks and supports ....
Go BRONCOS ! ! !
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Re: hope on the Horizon -- THuckaby, 13:32:56 02/09/05 Wed
It is a tough line to tread, I will grant that. We sure as heck don't want to have the improprieties that USF once did, and I wouldn't want the mercenary transfers that LMU had during the Kimble/Gathers era. We are a school of student/athletes, and we have a right to be proud of that.
BUT... we also have a very proud history, as you well know, and we aren't living up to that in recent times, at least in terms of wins and losses.
I just do expect more.
And well... Davey has given me nothing to be optomistic about in terms of recruiting. I mean can we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get a decent big man? Who's the last one we have? I swear things are so bad I am pining away for Dan Weiss and Matt Wilgenbush. Sure Denison has potential, but this has been a lost year... can some day soon we get a big man with some actual results to go along with potential?
Oh well, I don't need to rant any more. And forgive me also if I don't get too excited about Lloyd Pierce coming on as an assistant. That to me merits a yawn.
But I am quite beaten down by our mediocrity, as you can tell.
Hope does spring eternal. I was excited as everyone else when we beat UNC and Stanford.
But the rest of this year has been such a huge disappointment... the only thing that can save it really is a WCC tourney title. That CAN happen, sure. But I am not holding my breath.
This Friday against SMC? Yawn. I'm not kidding. Oh sure, they remain our rivals and any SMC game is important for bragging rights. But in the scheme of things, what the hell difference does it make, win or lose? All we have to play for now is holding off USD and USF for 4th place, so we can get first round bye. And the games head to head against them are gonna determine that. This Friday? I've already chalked it up as a loss, and we are playing with house money having destroyed them in Moraga, so it really doesn't matter.
BTW, from all accounts Rambis is a great guy... I missed him by one year at school, but we shared a faculty advisor (George Giacomini) and I spent damn near all my time with GG talking about Rambis!
TH
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SMC --- Yawn -- Bronco66, 16:02:08 02/09/05 Wed
as for the St Mary's game being a yawn ... actually we need the 4th place (and maybe even the third) for a good shot at the title ...
remember 4 plays 1 in the Semis and 3 plays 2
also if we beat them and they take one more loss (and we win out ... yah I know) we have the tie breaker and move into 2nd place with two tourney byes ....
not just a yawn ...
I understand all of what you both are saying ... and can appreciate it ... all I *KNOW* is that the Broncos are my team I am supporting them and we will see where the chips fall this spring ....
the tide is turning at SCU ... and now more than ever the U needs our support and involvement ... good or bad but just not indifferent ...
I appreciate the post and the discussion ... thanks for bringing it and
Go BRONCOS
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Re: SMC --- Yawn -- THuckaby, 07:18:19 02/10/05 Thu
66:
I am well aware of the ramifications of finishing in 5th, and the loss of a bye that results. But this game remains a YAWN, for several reasons:
a) yes, it helps if we win, but the games at USF and at USD (the two teams we are competing with for 3rd/4th) are gonna settle that no matter what happens against SMC tomorrow.
b) I am SICK AND FREAKIN' TIRED of 3rd and 4th place being a "big" thing for us! Dammit, is this the mediocre level to which we've sank? Sure, if we get the bye, we have a better chance to win the tourney - that's basic logic. But do you really think we have a snowball's chance in hell of pulling that off, bye or no bye? Either way it would require consecutive wins over SMC and Gonzaga. I don't see it.
So sure, I love the Broncos too. I really do. I care about our hoops WAY too much, to be honest.
But if you see a things turning around... good lord, what are you seeing? Where's the light at the end of the tunnel? Think about next years team, without Perkins and Bailey. Can we say mediocre?
It's all fine and dandy to support the school. I do that heart and soul.
But we deserve better than 15 years of mediocrity.
So I am just jazzed to hell about this "big" game against SMC - NOT! Oh sure, if we win that's wonderful, as a sweep of the Gaels is always a good thing. But in the competitive scheme of things, the game is as close to meaningless as we will ever have.
And that just plain sucks.
TH
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Re: hope on the Horizon -- Disgruntled Bronco Fan, 15:07:04 02/09/05 Wed
Wow TH. You and I really feel the same about our SCU Broncos. I went to the UNC and Stanford games. And yes, I too felt something special after those victories. Of course, that feeling went away with bad losses and now I share your same sentiment on this season. YAWN!!! When you look at college basketball today, the successful teams have excellent guard play and solid frontcourts. When we win, we have both. But in our many losses, only one of those elements have been present. Niesen is solid, but not big enough to clean up the boards. Denison is still too soft. KB hasn't been the same since his freshman year. And DP, while great, is too inconsistent with his shot. So to get back on top, SCU will not only need a big man (taller than Niesen) who's willing to bang in there, but also a guard who can beat a defense off the dribble and stretch out defenses with the trey. Just look at the #1 team in the country...Illinois. Their big men aren't the most skilled...but they're not afraid to get dirty. And Illinois arguably has the best backcourt in the country. The way Illinois is playing is the key to success in college basketball. DD found these players before. I don't know what's happened since Marlon Garnett. Garnett was the last SCU guard I remember who could do the things I mentioned earlier.
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Re: ESPN Board -- Bronco Fan, 12:13:50 02/10/05 Thu
Not much to really add - other than WOW! It's great to see some dialogue about the state of the program and what needs to be done to improve it.
My big question is this, do you really think that Kurt Rambis would be an effective recruiter for SCU and bring in more talent? Kids today don't remember him, don't associate him with SCU and he hasn't ever had to recruit/sell to get players. I can think of a few others who would be better "fits".
In the event a move is made by or on Davey, I don't think KR is the right guy.
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Re: ESPN Board -- Disgruntled Bronco Fan, 12:41:06 02/10/05 Thu
I actually agree with Bronco Fan. Kurt Rambis is from a past generation. I think a better fit would be that assistant from the Zags program who was mentioned in other posts. Generally, assistant coaches are heavily involved in recruiting and to take away one of the Zags coaches would put a little hurt on their program while helping our own as well. Good post Bronco Fan.
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Re: ESPN Board -- Bronco Fan, 20:11:41 02/10/05 Thu
I think getting someone from Spokane would be a nightmare. Do you honestly think that Mark Few (or any of his assistants) could recruit effectively in the Bay Area? I'd perfer they promoted Seandel before taking someone from that hole up north.
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Rambis & Grier -- JC, 21:10:10 02/10/05 Thu
Here in So Cal, Rambis (47) was a fairly visible presence until recently. His time with the Lakers as a player and coach would serve him well with recruiting in this area. He is 6-7 years younger than Westphal and would be 3 years younger than Westphal was when he started at Pepp.Westphal's recent problems haven't come from a lack of recruiting-- he's been getting good players (yes, I know they have a bigger pool to recruit from).How Rambis would play in the rest of the west is a big "who knows?" Holton in Portland isn't much younger (UCLA '83) and he's done a credible job. Having NBA experience and caring about the program (as an alumni,I'm making an assumption here)would go a long way. How he'd relate to young athletes vis a vis recruiting is anyone's guess.
A "young up and comer" like Grier (41) might work out superbly, but it's almost inevitable that any significant success--the type we'd all like-- would lead to his departure to a bigger program. Unless he's wired like Randy Bennett or Mark Few, SCU would be lucky to have him 3-4 years if he proved to be good as we'd hoped he'd be. It would be kind of an ironic 'dramtic arc': Carroll Williams' Assistant Fitzgerald to Gonzaga followed by
Monson/Few then to Grier (he's been at 'Zaga 14 years)and back to SCU.
Whatever changes, if any, are made they won't guarantee success. If they are made,all I want is a legit chance to go to the 'Dance' every season,Sweet 16 appearances every couple of years and a consistent chance to be excited about the program every year. Weighing everything, including media exposure, which helps with TV and recruiting, I'd go with Kurt. But I could definetly live with Grier.
Here's the 'Zag link that describes Grier; he's sounds pretty good.
http://gozags.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/grier_bill00.html
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Bronco Fan -- JC, 21:22:55 02/10/05 Thu
brings up a good point about Grier's recruiting base.Outside of the four international players, all but 2 of the Zag players come from the Northwest.- none from Cali. As for Seandel, he is highly regarded as assistants go and was a successful HS coach.My concern would be that he has been responsible for the offense for years and how many ugly possessions can you remember where the Broncos got off a terrible shot? Their FG% has been bad for a long time.
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Re: ESPN Board -- THuckaby, 07:04:12 02/11/05 Fri
I'm gonna go with JC here. Say what you will about Rambis being past generation, the fact is he has STRONG NBA links, particularly with the Lakers, and you don't think that would be a strong help in getting potential NBA players here, something we have really NEVER had?
He's also young (relatively), energetic, and devoted to SCU through and through.
As for Grier, I only mention him because he is slated to take Few's slot if an when he leaves (it's in both of their contracts). So if we snare him, we hurt GU's succession plan which to me is a GREAT thing! He also is pretty damn well respected, and as for recruiting, well where do you think all these international players they are getting came from?
Both of these are likely pie in the sky, I don't know. So on a more realistic plane, what I'd like to see is some top young assistant, one with energy and a proven recruiting record. Can we say RODNEY TENTION? I bet he was pretty pissed he didn't get the USF job.. he remains top assistant to Lute at AZ. Young, energetic, rising star. No SCU ties obviously, but pretty damn strong WCC ties.
One final thought: if Steve Seandel gets the job post-Davey, thereby continuing the legacy of lethargy, I sever all ties to my alma mater's hoops program. I am NOT kidding. Not that they give a rat's ass what a yokel like me thinks, but that hire would represent all that we are trying to get away from.
Give it to Pierce, hell give it to anyone besides Seandel. That is unless you enjoy mediocrity.
Of course all this assume DD steps down gracefully. God I hope he does. I don't want the AD to have to force him out - that is not our way.
But then again, maybe our way needs to change? More food for thought.
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Re: ESPN Board -- Disgruntled Bronco Fan, 09:35:40 02/11/05 Fri
I'm skeptical about Rambis but you never know. I would prefer to get a coach from the college ranks. Rambis has been out of the college game for some time now.
Grier would be an excellent choice. But it is possible that if he is successful, he'll bolt. But then again, once success has been established it could continue.
TH, I like the idea of the Arizona assistant Rodney Tention. He should be able to improve our recruiting in Southern Cali, which is where most basketball talent from Cali is anyways. When you look at AZ, most of the roster comes from SoCal. I don't know if Grier would be able to recruit guys from Washington to come down to SCU to play. So Tention would be a better choice.
Overall, I think it's best to go out of program to look for a new coach. But of course, these points are all moot if DD isn't fired or doesn't step down ("retire"). And please, don't even talk about hiring Seandel. He's heavily involved in recruiting. While the job he's done there is decent, it's definitely starting to fall behind the other schools in the conference.
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Re: ESPN Board -- Tom Huckaby, 09:50:54 02/11/05 Fri
Disgruntled:
You and I are completely copacetic on all of this - well said.
I'd rank the preferences like this:
1. Tention
2. Grier
3. Rambis
4. Another young energetic assistant, preferably a proven recruiter, preferably from a major program, preferably with some ties to the WCC.
5. Another assistant with some but not all of those qualities.
.
.
165. Davey stays for one more year.
.
.
.
250. Davey stays for two more years.
.
.
1,000,000. Seandel.
TH
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Re: ESPN Board -- Disgruntled Bronco Fan, 10:01:03 02/11/05 Fri
Here's a link to Rodney Tention's profile.
He sounds like an excellent choice. Like I said earlier, college basketball is now a guard dominated sport. The stronger your backcourt, the more successful you are. And after the snubbing by USF, I'm sure he would love to rub it in their faces with SCU.
Let's cross our fingers that Coonan has some vision.
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Re: ESPN Board -- Bronco Fan, 10:07:01 02/11/05 Fri
Agree with most of the above sentiments.
We're also assuming that Coonan wouldn't bring in someone from Cal (i.e. his past life).
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Re: ESPN Board -- Tom Huckaby, 10:54:15 02/11/05 Fri
Very possible. But assuming we don't take Braun, are any Cal assistants worth our pursuit? I am not up on their program.
And Disgruntled, thanks for Tention profile. Yep, methinks he would be perfect for us.
TH
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