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Subject: Princeton? Author: Recent Blue [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 15:22:20 11/07/25 Fri I mostly follow football, basketball, and hockey. But I noticed that last weekend Princeton won 4 Ivy League regular season titles. 2 each in soccer and cross country. While their football team is recently second division, and will probably lose big tomorrow, they do seem to regularly win an inordinate number of titles overall throughout the year. 4 in one weekend? Some people might say these are minor sports, but all the schools are competing for these titles. How have they managed this? [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Re: Princeton? What The Hell Is Going On? Author: An Observer [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:03:57 11/07/25 Fri I find this of great interest as well. What, if anything, creates structural or long-term advantage in this conference? How can any institution be optimized for success, given its financial and other constraints (in this case, academic limitations)? I have posted on this board for decades that I would like to see HYP not dominate competition on the athletic field. I accept that their advantage in terms of academic brand names is not easily diluted. They were at the top of the food chain in 1825 and still are, two centuries later. (I guess Harvard and Yale were at the top of the food chain as early as 1725.) The only thing that's changed is Stanford is now considered a peer and, in my eyes, arguably has pulled ahead as a university (as opposed to an undergraduate college). So I would like to see BCCDP compete and do well. I think that's good for the conference. But here's something that should give all of us pause as we think about the structural advantages enjoyed and exploited by HYP: Academic Year 2024-25 Ivy League Championships Yale. . . . . . . . 2 Harvard . . . . 5 Princeton . . 17 It's staggering. I can't explain it. Like gravity and 68-yard field goals, I wish I could understand how it happens. What the hell is going on? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton? What The Hell Is Going On Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:02:08 11/07/25 Fri Let me try the short version first; probably kinder than going sport by sport etc. Princeton athletics are where they are because the trustees, faculty, admissions, and administration are all agreed on how to run them. There are active faculty reps for every team. Every AD in the history of the school has been an alumnus. They try to hire excellent coaches without exception, and support them. The AD is expected to hire good people, or explain why not, to the trustees. The facilities are excellent and well-tended, but not really showy. The unspoken expectation is that, if they are going to field a team, it will be competitive in its league, i.e. certainly top half, over the long haul. This requires good recruiting as well as coaching, and they pay for it. This is for all squads, all the time. They really try to treat women equally with men, and so their women's teams tend to be somewhat more successful than the men's, facing schools who don't. They want to be Division I so that any athlete in ANY varsity sport has an opportunity to compete on a national level if sufficiently talented. Recruits are aware. Alums tend to be proud of this, and support it around the world. They NEVER get conflicting stories from the school regarding the value or seriousness of athletics. This has been the approach since the terribly managed dumping of wrestling in the late '80s, with no serious exception since Gary Walters took over in '94. It doesn't always work seamlessly, but spread over 38 sports it gives them a shot at a number of championships each year. The 17 is an aberration, with a number of things breaking right; there have been years with 5 or 6 titles, the norm has become 10 or 11. But you'll also notice there are always a number of squads around 2nd or 3rd place, and so sometimes it will be more. They may never hit 17 again, but that's not really the point. Being competitive and proud of your team and your own role is. You can come up with rogue data points that conflict with this, but surprisingly few. Not sure how satisfying that is, but it's a start. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Princeton? What The Hell Is Going On Author: Tiger81 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:49:15 11/07/25 Fri Great analysis, I agree that the close and decades-old alignment across its key institutional constituencies laid the foundation for the sustained success of Princeton’s athletic programs. I have always been impressed by the number of outstanding coaches who have been selected by, attracted to, and retained at Princeton. Many are alums but not all, and there have been several (Samara, Banghart, Sailor) from rival Ivies who have built Tiger dynasties. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Update on Ivy playoffs Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:27:21 11/07/25 Fri Two championship tourneys this weekend Women's soccer semis: D 1, Col 0; P 2, B 0 Finals Sunday. Only winner will go to NCAAs. Field Hockey: H 2, B 0; P 3, Y 0 Finals Sunday. H and P definitely going to NCAAs, trying for home field. Either Y or B had a shot if they won in the first round, now unclear. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Princeton? Author: H Dallmar [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:21:41 11/07/25 Fri Princeton enjoys this success without accepting athletic transfers. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Princeton? Author: M3 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:21:12 11/07/25 Fri What is even more amazing is that Princeton is cutting the number of athletic slots. Go figure [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Princeton? Author: Grin and Bear it [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:51:24 11/07/25 Fri If I am not mistaken, Princeton is the wealthiest college in the country on a per student basis. This certainly helps. Yet the bigger issue is that Princeton has taken the position that if they are going to fund a team, that team should have every opportunity to be successful. But I believe it goes beyond that. I believe that they are taking the position that athletic success leads to confidence building, camaraderie, and teamwork. And these attributes lead to life achievement. In other words, athletic achievement is part of the Princeton experience. With this attitude and a lot of money, they have sought out the best athletes in the country. And they have gotten their fair share of them. And why not? Princeton is often rated the best university in the country, their facilities are superb, and the campus is beautiful, what is not to like? Add to this they have done an excellent job of finding the best coaches. As the old saying goes, success breeds more success. In general, I always root against Princeton but that is only because I am jealous of their success. But at the same time, I grudgingly admire their approach. I think that anyone who plays a varsity sport should have the opportunity to compete for championships. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton? Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:35:56 11/08/25 Sat G&B — Thanks for your gracious and well—presented summary, which adds elements that certainly pertain. The single thing I would add to reemphasize is the enthused backing of the faculty, many of whose members can be seen at virtually any game, and dozens of whose members volunteer time with the teams. Arguably, this may be Gary Walters’ biggest achievement. It seems obvious, but if you look at a place like Rutgers where the faculty and athletics have been at war for decades, the results are strikingly different. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: A couple more data points Author: joiseyfan [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 20:19:48 11/15/25 Sat The Tigers won the volleyball championship and home court for the ILT today. They did NOT really dominate the league at all, and lost along the way to Yale, Brown and Cornell, but beat all seven other teams at least once, so won solo at 11-3. This resembled some of the more interesting Ivy men’s basketball seasons. That’s five solo champioships for Princeton in the seven fall Ivy sports. The other two are football and, weirdly, field hockey, where Princeton is seeded second nationally in the NCAAs despite finishing second in the Ivies to a great Harvard team, whom they then beat in the ILT rematch. An obvious illustration of league championships being relative to the other seven Ivies, not necessarily absolute strength nationally or regionally. Just one additional note, slightly off-topic. It will be fun to see the talented women in the Ivy volleyball tourney playing their hard-fought battles in Dillon, exactly where Bill Bradley did so much to expand the vistas of Ivy athletics so many years ago. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> Subject: Re: Princeton? Author: Recent Blue [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:57:58 01/15/26 Thu OK. But how unique or at least different is this from other Ivies? Even if you assume the across the board support for athletics is stronger than the other seven schools, how is that the case in so many sports that Princeton wins as many titles as it does for so many years? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Princeton?/The future? Author: Bengal [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:00:42 03/24/26 Tue I had wanted to ask this question of some of our coaches, it took a while, and basically got back the answer I believe has been a consistent explanation for decades: The university gives equal treatment/support to all of the varsity teams. Success in all sports was the goal with as much even handedness as could generally be mustered. Back in the day, this was symbolized (and it was purely symbolism) by the website keeping every story visible for the same amount of time -- an NCAA basketball win was featured no more and no longer than a blowout loss in another sport. The website no longer does this equal time treatment (losses are usually harder to find, for example). There is a lot of nuance to this over time, and exceptions. Much too much to cover even for me, lol, and I am speaking in broad generalities. One consequence of this approach is that some of our varsity programs at various times were disadvantaged against programs of other Ivies who seem to focus on some sports more than others. And, of course, circumstances change over time, and less successful teams at some schools reverse their fortunes. Among the nuances, briefly: admissions supports all varsity sports (again, an exception here and there at one time or another). But it has often been a mixed bag in terms of its decision making. The Administration provides support, but has cut the number of recruits and with rare exceptions does not admit athletic transfers. Within a few years things could change: In the portal era, we will lose enrolled athletes while gaining few to none with our Administration's attitude toward athletic transfers. You can look at football and basketball teams (M & W) in our league alone and see their impact. The Administration will not take as many athletes as we are entitled to under the League formula. We have used NIL to some extent, but if we are not as aggressive as competitors might be that will be detrimental to our competitiveness. Admissions, right down to the current recruiting year, is almost certainly a continuing mixed bag. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]