[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement:
Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor
of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users'
privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your
privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket
to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we
also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.
Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your
contribution is not tax-deductible.)
PayPal Acct: 
Feedback: 
Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):
[ Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 10:28:50 02/13/08 Wed
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: And what of the Protestant Inquisitions?
In reply to:
Joan
's message, ""The Inquisition". Is what you know truth or myth?" on 10:05:30 02/13/08 Wed
Why are the murders at that hands of zealous Protestants (in the name of Christ) not mentioned? How many suffered social consequences that we wouldn't tolerate today, were banned, or were killed because they disagreed with the local brand of Protestantism, were Catholic, or because they were accused of being withces?
Unfortunately, times were what they were. These are cases of people acting as political/social/religious beings in the political/social/religious times in which they lived.
And of course the U.S. South, which was predominantly Protestant fought very hard to protect their states' rights, including the right to keep human beings in bondage.
I like this quote best, because it tells us that it's so easy to point backward instead of looking at ourselves. If we look back and see that things were wrong, and we're so willing to point fingers, saying that it was "they" who were evil, and that it was "we" who had it right, it should be just as easy to look in the mirror and take our lumps.
"After a 20th century unmatched for bloodshed, the world today is in no position to disparage early modern Europe."
I think not only of Hitler, Stallin, Milosovic, Hussein, and Pol Pot, but also of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
If we're going to talk about the past and point out what was wrong, let's tell the history truthfully, and learn from it.
IMO, this is a good lesson in how myths are born, and how the propagandists use the ignorance of the masses to manipulate them.
Don't be manipulated!!
Joan
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Replies:
[>
Re: What I know...is the truth.... -- Phil, 11:14:50 02/14/08 Thu [1] (71-223-7-96.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.7.96)
Joan, you're very gullible to fall for this pseudo-scholarship. The Church often engages in propaganda to lessen its role in sinister events in history.
How do they do it? One way: they attempt to minimize the role of the Church in these events by using bogus statistics. For example, if you say that only 1% of Americans do this and that...that still means you're talking abt 3mil people. They also did this during the abuse scandal, when they claimed that the vast maj'ty of priests were not involved in the scandal. That was not very persuasive to me, since there are a lot priests in the world.
One of the reasons the Church conducted the Inquisition was to keep people in line. The average guy on the street knew that if he engaged in any kind of opposition or disagreement with the Church he faced the Inquisition. Just the thought of being dragged b4 1 of these Inquisitions was enough to deter folks from attacking or disagreeing with the Church. Thus, they used fear to keep people in line. Totalitarian regimes utilize the same tactic.
The reality is: the Church did encourage and support the Crusades, the Inquistion did exist, the Borja Popes did some outrageous things...and on and on. To miminalize them with bogus numbers is disingenuous. By doing so, they're trying to convince you that it was 'no big deal', and since it was so insignificant, that it barely happened at all. They'll do the same thing in a few yrs time with the abuse scandal...when they address it at all. No doubt they'll blame the media for 'hyping it' too.
Joan, dont be tricked by revisionist history. It makes folks look like fools to educated and informed people. Case in point: when I was in Ire, there were several folks who believed that the US did NOT land a man on the moon; that it was some kind of simulation. The History Channel still runs clips of the 'mysterious circles' in farmers fields in Eng, even after a few farmers admitted that they had a few beers while they did it themselves in the dead of nite.
There is a lady in Ire who claims to have predicted 9/11...after the fact. Indirectly, this prophetess claims that we deserved it and insinuates that it came from God. I heard her say it herself on an interview on RTE. They caught her and the priest who represent her in all kinds of fibs and inaccuracies. Any1 who disagrees with, and crtisizes her, is 'persecuting' her and guilty of killing her husbund, who died of natural causes. Meanwhile, she continues to sell trinkets to Americans on her website as she slams us. She's a nut!
For balance: the media and other 'pundits' almost never mention the accomplishments of the Church. It has followed the Great Commission and brought the Word to billions of people throughout the world. It helps the poor and disadvantaged, and has generally helped to make just abt as many lives better for it. I s'pose to them, it is not news or worthy of reflection. I think we'd all argue that it is worth mentioning. Perhaps you'd be better off mentioning the life and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, and focus on that, rather than trying to change history.
Still, revisionist history and psuedo-scholarship is rampant. Dont be swayed by it.
As for the stuff abt the 'Prot'nt Inquisition', my Dad had a saying:
"Two wrongs dont make a right!" So many atrocities have been committed in the name of God, it would require several volumes to document and explain. If an action is wrong, it doesnt matter if its perpetrated by a Buddist, Muslim, Christian or Jew...its still wrong.
And yes, the Holocaust did happen, and it was 1 of, if not the worst thing, that ever happened in history. Just cuz a few nuts say it didnt happen or the nbrs were lower, does not change anything. Again, dont be swayed by this nonsense.
Take care, God Bless,
Phil from AZ
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [>
Read Inquisition by Peters. Then get back to us. :) -- Joan, 15:23:12 02/14/08 Thu [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [>
Re: Just 1 book? -- Phil, 16:08:10 02/14/08 Thu [1] (71-223-7-96.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.7.96)
I have read numerous books on these subjects. I studied Euro Medieval History in college and have a degree in the history...along with Poli Sci and Social Sci. I have traveled extensively and lived in other Euro countries: Britain (where I studied), Germany, Ireland and briefly in Italy. Thus, I have an extensive background in these topics.
For example, I wrote a lengthy term ppr (nearly 50 pages) on The Fourth Crusade, the 1 where the Crusaders sacked Christian Constantinople 'en route' to the Holy Land. The Pope failed to ex-comm the leaders of this debacle, while he was having others burned at the stake for heresy. I cited archeology, docs, and even eye-witness accts of this sordid affair. So plz dont lecture me abt this when I'm the 1 with the pedigree.
Still, In the basis of fairness, I will attempt to get ahold of book and get back to you. What is the name of the book? And plz dont tell me it was wtn by a Church hack, commissioned to write it by the Vatican. I don't pay much attn to biased accts, wtn by those with a revisionist agenda.
Take care, God Bless,
Phil from cool AZ
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
Re: Never mind, I found the book....thx... -- Phil, 21:46:07 02/14/08 Thu [1] (71-223-7-96.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.7.96)
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
Should we, then, be paying attention to you, -- Joan, 04:28:05 02/15/08 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
a disgruntled former Catholic with obvious "issues" with the Church? ;)
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
Phil's credentials vs Madden's -- Joan, 04:34:02 02/15/08 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
These are Madden's credentials.
Thomas F. Madden
Professor
Director, Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Education
Ph.D., University of Illinois, 1993.
M.A., University of Illinois, 1990.
B.A., University of New Mexico, 1986.
Scholarly Publications
Books
The New Concise History of the Crusades (Lanham: Rowman and Littlefield, 2005).
Enrico Dandolo and the Rise of Venice (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2003).
Winner of the Medieval Academy of America's 2007 Haskins Medal
Winner of the Medieval Institute's 2005 Otto Gründler Prize
A BBC History Magazine Book-of-the-Month
The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1997). (Co-author).
A History Book Club Selection
Journal Articles
"The Enduring Myths of the Fourth Crusade," World History Bulletin 20 (2004): 11-14.
"The Chrysobull of Alexius I Comnenus to the Venetians: The Date and the Debate," Journal of Medieval History 28 (2002): 23-41.
"Outside and Inside the Fourth Crusade," The International History Review 17 (1995): 726-43.
"Venice and Constantinople in 1171 and 1172: Enrico Dandolo's Attitude towards Byzantium," Mediterranean Historical Review 8 (1993): 166-85.
"Father of the Bride: Fathers, Daughters, and Dowries in Late Medieval and Early Renaissance Venice," Renaissance Quarterly 46 (1993): 685-711. (Co-author).
"Vows and Contracts in the Fourth Crusade: The Treaty of Zara and the Attack on Constantinople in 1204," The International History Review 15 (1993): 441-68.
"The Fires of the Fourth Crusade in Constantinople, 1203-1204: A Damage Assessment," Byzantinische Zeitschrift 84/85 (1992): 72-93.
"The Serpent Column of Delphi in Constantinople: Placement, Purposes, and Mutilations," Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies 16 (1992): 111-45.
"Some Further Arguments in Defense of the Venetians on the Fourth Crusade," Byzantion 62 (1992): 433-73. (Co-author).
Edited Volumes
Crusades: The Illustrated History (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2004).
A Book-of-the-Month Club Selection
A History Book Club Selection
The Crusades: The Essential Readings (Oxford: Blackwell, 2002).
Medieval and Renaissance Venice (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1999). (Co-editor).
Essays in Edited Volumes
"Food and the Fourth Crusade: A New Approach to the 'Diversion Question,'" in Logistics of Warfare in the Age of the Crusades, John H. Pryor, ed. (Brookfield: Ashgate Publishing, 2006), pp. 209-28.
"Venice, the Papacy, and the Crusades before 1204," in The Medieval Crusade, Susan J. Ridyard, ed. (Woodbridge: Boydell Press, 2004), pp. 85-95.
"Venice's Hostage Crisis: Diplomatic Efforts to Secure Peace with Byzantium between 1171 and 1184," in Medieval and Renaissance Venice (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1999), pp. 96-108.
These are yours, Phil.
"I studied Euro Medieval History" and " I wrote a lengthy term ppr (nearly 50 pages) on The Fourth Crusade".
A class or two, and a paper.
And you call Madden a hack?! lol
Joan
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [> [> [>
More on Madden -- Joan, 04:50:40 02/15/08 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
Thomas F. Madden is Professor of History and Director of the Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies at Saint Louis University. A prolific author, he is also a respected media expert appearing in such venues as The New York Times, Washington Post, USA Today, The History Channel, The Discovery Channel, NPR, and many more.
Dr. Madden's books include the best-selling New Concise History of the Crusades (2005) and the award-winning Enrico Dandolo and the Rise of Venice (2003). He has also published extensively on the ancient and medieval Mediterranean and the history of Christianity.
Awards for his scholarship include the 2005 Otto Grundler Prize, awarded by the Medieval Institute, and the 2007 Haskins Medal, awarded by the Medieval Academy of America.
Dr. Madden served for eight years as Chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He received his B.A. from the University of New Mexico and his M.A. and Ph.D. from the University of Illinois with research specialties in Medieval Europe, Ancient Rome, and Islamic History.
Dr. Madden continues to write and lecture on a variety of historical topics. His current research involves an examination of ancient Roman imperialism in light of modern events.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
