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Re: Yes, absolutely.... -- Phil, 00:43:22 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)
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Re: Yep, I think you I got your intent Neysa... -- Phil, 00:53:12 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)
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No, Phil.......... -- Neysa, 09:17:02 08/28/07 Tue [1] (user-38lcifp.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.249)
it wasn't meant just for you. It was meant for everyone reading my post. Right after I posted I thought I better clarify my question. Since, many fanatics today kill themselves in the name of their religion, and then call themselves martyr's.
My post just ended up under your post. I guess while I was typing to clarify my statement. You had just posted.
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Re: No problem. All I did was re-state what I had said earlier -- Phil, 09:22:46 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)
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Ooo, Good question. -- Joan, 03:18:19 08/28/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
To me, life comes before everything. We're against suicide, abortion, the death penalty, infanticide, and euthenasia, so why would we be for allowing ourselves to be killed.
IMO, we don't owe the enemy the truth if they will use it against us. It's perfectly OK to withold the truth from tyrants.
So, I might say I've converted, but I will know that I haven't, and so will God. I might say that I'm already a Tree Worshipite, when I know I'm not. Whatever gets you through the reign of terror is good, so long as you don't actually lose your way and don't encourage others to really convert.
I think of the Jews in Europe who pretended to be Christians to avoid the Nazis. They weren't wrong. They didn't owe the Nazis the truth. I can't believe that God would punish them for saying they were Christians.
Joan
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Me too -- Neysa, 09:00:47 08/28/07 Tue [1] (user-38lcifp.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.249)
I would say that I converted and practice the faith that is forced upon me in public, but in secret I would still practice my religion.
When Henry VIII, forced his Anglican Religion and made all the nobles convert or face death. Many openly changed, but still practiced their Catholic Religion in secret.
I often thought why be tortured and put to death when all you have to do is practice your faith in secret.
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I see your point. But everyone is different. I could not -- Catie, 12:22:40 08/28/07 Tue [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
hide my love of the true God and worship in secret. These are but a few of God's words that bear witness as to why I could not pretend to worship a false God.
**********************************************************
According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like
manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth
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You have to wonder though, in our hypothetical question, -- Joan, 03:12:33 08/29/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
who would be left to keep the faith going, if everyone did the right thing according to a literal understanding of those verses.
The only people left to pass the faith on (in secret) would be those who did the wrong thing. So how wrong could it be? ;-)
Joan
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Would you choose death? -- Joan, 14:51:39 08/28/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
I know it's really impossible to imagine being in this position. But if someone held a gun to your head and told you to say that you are a Peanut worshipper and not a Christian, would you do it? Could you choose death?
I really don't think I would choose death. IMO, the person holding the gun to my head has no right to put me in that position. That person has no power to make God deny me. He has the power to make me say something, to make me utter his words that I don't believe in. But he doesn't have the power to make me believe those words. Since God knows our hearts, and since we believe that every life is precious, I don't see how choosing death over uttering meaningless words is the only valid choice. Choosing life is also a valid choice, imo.
If we compare it to rape, it seems clear to me. God tells us that sex outside of marriage is wrong. A man grabs a woman and tells her that if she doesn't allow him to rape her, he'll kill her. She relents and lets him rape her. Was this really consent to sex before marriage. Was this of her own will? In several societies, the rape victim is considered ruined and guilty for being raped. She becomes impure, as if she had brought this on herself. In reality, she had the choice of being raped or being killed. In our society we put the blame squarely on the rapist who had no right whatsoever to put the victim in that position. The purity of the victim isn't in question, even if she "agreed" to the raped to save her life. We believe that she is completely innocent and he is completely guilty because life is precious and because the guy has absolutely no right to make her choose between sexual continence and life.
If we do this for each other, I think God would do it for us. Anyone who tells us that we have to choose between two evils--death or denying our God--is completely guilty, and regardless of which evil the victim chooses, the victim is completely innocent.
Now, if we deny God because it's politically or socially convenient or profitable, I can see where God would have a problem with that. :-)
Being a martyr is an extraordinary choice. I think that's why Christians have admired the martyrs since the beginning. But it is extraordinary. The ordinary choice would be life. I don't think there's any sin in being ordinary.
Joan
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Peanut Worshipper...I could not choose death! -- Neysa, 17:16:08 08/28/07 Tue [1] (user-2inik12.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.34)
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Re: Would you choose death? - Joan -- Catie, 09:34:40 08/29/07 Wed [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
Not wanting to sound pious, but I suppose truthfully that is one specific time I would seek God with prayer that my faith in an omnipotent,omniscient, God, would direct me in what to do. My desire is, after all, to do his will and not mine. :)
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Re: Would you choose death? - Joan -- Joan, 12:47:13 08/29/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
I wonder if God would want us to choose death over life. What do you think?
Joan
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Re: Would you choose death? - Joan -- Catie, 14:29:14 08/29/07 Wed [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
It seems the answer would be life, since he has graciouslyy gifted us with this life. Still, the scriptues speak to us to be careful not to love this life so very much that we would trade it off for eternal life with God. (paraphrasing)- I really don't know so I can't say. Perhaps what he would have me do, would not be same he would have someone else do. ?? Who knows?? His ways are not our ways. :)
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Joan,I think God would want us to choose life...... -- Neysa, 23:22:04 08/29/07 Wed [1] (user-38lci2f.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.72.79)
after all life is a gift from God.
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Nicely stated, Neysa! I agree. :-) -- Barb, 07:50:28 08/30/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt4-port-212.dial.telus.net/161.184.46.212)
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Thanks Barb -- Neysa, 09:55:47 08/30/07 Thu [1] (user-2inik3e.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.110)
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I'd say " shoot me now "... -- Lynn, 09:32:44 08/28/07 Tue [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)
I wouldn't change who I am for anyone, no matter what the circumstances.
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Re: That's the spirit girl!!! -- Phil, 13:43:35 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)
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Lynn ...aw come on now! -- Catie, 15:29:47 08/28/07 Tue [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
Wouldn't you consider changing out of those jeans into a french maid's outfit if Tom Selleck or Sean Connery asked you? *hee*hee
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Re: Lynn ...aw come on now! - Nahhhhhhh ;) -- Lynn, 07:10:59 08/29/07 Wed [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)
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Neysa -- Catie, 11:57:37 08/28/07 Tue [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
Well since we are speaking figuratively, it's easy to say I would give with all my heart- without hesitation. But some things are worse than death. I want to think, not only as saints of old, but even folks who are dying today for freedom of religion, I too would be willing to sacrifice, if there would be good that came from it. Don't get me wrong. My goal is to live with purpose. I feel my first obligation is to my beloved family. But, someday I will leave them all behind, whether I want to go or not. :) This life is only temporary anyway. :) I know I will be reunited with them again as well as precious friends! Keep in mind, some things are beyond our control. We can do all things to improve our chances of life here, but someday, ready or not, that silver cup will pass my way too. Then when I've traveled my last mile here, I will not look back with longing, but with eagerness to begin my new life without any sorrow or pain, surrounded by those I have always loved!
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