Let me just add................. -- Catholic Friends Forum

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, [4], 5, 6, 7, 8 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 00:49:36 08/28/07 Tue
Author: Neysa
Author Host/IP: user-2inik49.dialup.mindspring.com / 165.121.80.137
Subject: Let me just add.................
In reply to: Neysa 's message, "Would you be willing to be a martyr for your religious principles?" on 00:36:38 08/28/07 Tue

I am not talking about for example the muslims who blow themselves up and call themselves a martyr. To me they are terrorists.

What I am asking is if you were told that you had to convert to a certain religion, otherwise you would be tortured and put to death. What would you choose to do ?

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [>

Re: Yep, I think you I got your intent Neysa... -- Phil, 00:53:12 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)

...and my answer remains the same.

Phil from AZ

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> No, Phil.......... -- Neysa, 09:17:02 08/28/07 Tue [1] (user-38lcifp.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.249)

it wasn't meant just for you. It was meant for everyone reading my post. Right after I posted I thought I better clarify my question. Since, many fanatics today kill themselves in the name of their religion, and then call themselves martyr's.

My post just ended up under your post. I guess while I was typing to clarify my statement. You had just posted.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Re: No problem. All I did was re-state what I had said earlier -- Phil, 09:22:46 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Ooo, Good question. -- Joan, 03:18:19 08/28/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

To me, life comes before everything. We're against suicide, abortion, the death penalty, infanticide, and euthenasia, so why would we be for allowing ourselves to be killed.

IMO, we don't owe the enemy the truth if they will use it against us. It's perfectly OK to withold the truth from tyrants.

So, I might say I've converted, but I will know that I haven't, and so will God. I might say that I'm already a Tree Worshipite, when I know I'm not. Whatever gets you through the reign of terror is good, so long as you don't actually lose your way and don't encourage others to really convert.

I think of the Jews in Europe who pretended to be Christians to avoid the Nazis. They weren't wrong. They didn't owe the Nazis the truth. I can't believe that God would punish them for saying they were Christians.

Joan

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Me too -- Neysa, 09:00:47 08/28/07 Tue [1] (user-38lcifp.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.249)

I would say that I converted and practice the faith that is forced upon me in public, but in secret I would still practice my religion.

When Henry VIII, forced his Anglican Religion and made all the nobles convert or face death. Many openly changed, but still practiced their Catholic Religion in secret.

I often thought why be tortured and put to death when all you have to do is practice your faith in secret.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> I see your point. But everyone is different. I could not -- Catie, 12:22:40 08/28/07 Tue [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)

hide my love of the true God and worship in secret. These are but a few of God's words that bear witness as to why I could not pretend to worship a false God.

**********************************************************

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like
manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> You have to wonder though, in our hypothetical question, -- Joan, 03:12:33 08/29/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

who would be left to keep the faith going, if everyone did the right thing according to a literal understanding of those verses.

The only people left to pass the faith on (in secret) would be those who did the wrong thing. So how wrong could it be? ;-)

Joan

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Would you choose death? -- Joan, 14:51:39 08/28/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I know it's really impossible to imagine being in this position. But if someone held a gun to your head and told you to say that you are a Peanut worshipper and not a Christian, would you do it? Could you choose death?

I really don't think I would choose death. IMO, the person holding the gun to my head has no right to put me in that position. That person has no power to make God deny me. He has the power to make me say something, to make me utter his words that I don't believe in. But he doesn't have the power to make me believe those words. Since God knows our hearts, and since we believe that every life is precious, I don't see how choosing death over uttering meaningless words is the only valid choice. Choosing life is also a valid choice, imo.

If we compare it to rape, it seems clear to me. God tells us that sex outside of marriage is wrong. A man grabs a woman and tells her that if she doesn't allow him to rape her, he'll kill her. She relents and lets him rape her. Was this really consent to sex before marriage. Was this of her own will? In several societies, the rape victim is considered ruined and guilty for being raped. She becomes impure, as if she had brought this on herself. In reality, she had the choice of being raped or being killed. In our society we put the blame squarely on the rapist who had no right whatsoever to put the victim in that position. The purity of the victim isn't in question, even if she "agreed" to the raped to save her life. We believe that she is completely innocent and he is completely guilty because life is precious and because the guy has absolutely no right to make her choose between sexual continence and life.

If we do this for each other, I think God would do it for us. Anyone who tells us that we have to choose between two evils--death or denying our God--is completely guilty, and regardless of which evil the victim chooses, the victim is completely innocent.

Now, if we deny God because it's politically or socially convenient or profitable, I can see where God would have a problem with that. :-)

Being a martyr is an extraordinary choice. I think that's why Christians have admired the martyrs since the beginning. But it is extraordinary. The ordinary choice would be life. I don't think there's any sin in being ordinary.

Joan

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Peanut Worshipper...I could not choose death! -- Neysa, 17:16:08 08/28/07 Tue [1] (user-2inik12.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.34)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Would you choose death? - Joan -- Catie, 09:34:40 08/29/07 Wed [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)

Not wanting to sound pious, but I suppose truthfully that is one specific time I would seek God with prayer that my faith in an omnipotent,omniscient, God, would direct me in what to do. My desire is, after all, to do his will and not mine. :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Would you choose death? - Joan -- Joan, 12:47:13 08/29/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I wonder if God would want us to choose death over life. What do you think?

Joan

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Would you choose death? - Joan -- Catie, 14:29:14 08/29/07 Wed [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)

It seems the answer would be life, since he has graciouslyy gifted us with this life. Still, the scriptues speak to us to be careful not to love this life so very much that we would trade it off for eternal life with God. (paraphrasing)- I really don't know so I can't say. Perhaps what he would have me do, would not be same he would have someone else do. ?? Who knows?? His ways are not our ways. :)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Joan,I think God would want us to choose life...... -- Neysa, 23:22:04 08/29/07 Wed [1] (user-38lci2f.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.72.79)

after all life is a gift from God.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Nicely stated, Neysa! I agree. :-) -- Barb, 07:50:28 08/30/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt4-port-212.dial.telus.net/161.184.46.212)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks Barb -- Neysa, 09:55:47 08/30/07 Thu [1] (user-2inik3e.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.110)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> I'd say " shoot me now "... -- Lynn, 09:32:44 08/28/07 Tue [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)

I wouldn't change who I am for anyone, no matter what the circumstances.

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Re: That's the spirit girl!!! -- Phil, 13:43:35 08/28/07 Tue [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Lynn ...aw come on now! -- Catie, 15:29:47 08/28/07 Tue [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)

Wouldn't you consider changing out of those jeans into a french maid's outfit if Tom Selleck or Sean Connery asked you? *hee*hee

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Re: Lynn ...aw come on now! - Nahhhhhhh ;) -- Lynn, 07:10:59 08/29/07 Wed [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)

[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]