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Date Posted: 10:27:40 08/30/07 Thu
Author: Neysa
Author Host/IP: user-2inik3e.dialup.mindspring.com / 165.121.80.110
Subject: Do you believe that committing suicide is a sin ?
Also it wasn't until 1984 when Pope John Paul II, allowed those who committed suicide to have a funeral Mass, and be buried in the consecrated cemetery. Was the Catholic Church too harsh and wrong by not allowing these people and their families to have a funeral Mass and have them buried on consecrated ground? Do you think John Paul II was wrong in allowing this?
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Re: Do you believe that committing suicide is a sin ? -- catie, 10:40:38 08/30/07 Thu [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
"...it wasn't until 1984 when Pope John Paul II, ALLOWED those who committed suicide to have a funeral Mass, and be buried in the consecrated cemetery"
Okay, were really on different pages here. Please, try to understand where I'm coming from when I say this as I take it very personally. I apologize ahead of posting, if I come off too strong, but honestly, who the hell is that man to say who can and can't have a funeral, can or can't be buried in a certain place or get to heaven if they committ suicide. That really riles me. I know it doesn't apply to me anyway being a protestant, but understanding what a hurting family goes through, that they need their minister more than ever then, how do you think that's going to endear those Catholics to their own church?!
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Catie...................... -- Neysa, 11:00:35 08/30/07 Thu [1] (user-2inik1k.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.52)
I like what John Paul II did. It was all those before him that didn't allow it because the Catholic Church said it is a sin to take your life.
My grandfather got a head injury while working in the mines. A few years later he couldn't take the pain anymore and took his own life. I cannot see it being a sin. I don't think he knew what he was doing.
If it wasn't so expensive and the state making it so complicated I would have my grandfather re-buried. It bothers me where he is buried and the fact that he is not buried with his wife and other family members.
I always thought the Catholic Church was wrong by not allowing a funeral Mass and to be buried in the Catholic Cemetery.
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Men should not judge... -- Lynn, 12:11:41 08/30/07 Thu [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)
I agree with Catie. It is God who does the judging, so what gave them the right to refuse? Jesus Christ died for us, so was his death pointless? That's one of the reasons I did not become a Catholic, too many things not right about it.
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Re: Do you believe that committing suicide is a sin ? -- Joan, 14:18:53 08/30/07 Thu [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
Well, he's the leader of the Church on Earth. :-)
The Church owns the cemetaries, so I suppose they have the right to say who can and can't be buried there. I think that's true of every church-owned cemetary.
I think that suicide that's done for effect is a sin. Someone who jumps off a bridge to teach someone a lesson is committing a sin. Someone who jumps off a bridge because they can't imagine living anymore isn't committing a sin, imo.
I think it's not a sin in that case, because the person wasn't in his right mind. Sin requires the full kwowledge that what you're doing is wrong.
Joan
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Joan -- catie, 06:23:52 08/31/07 Fri [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
When a church owns a cemetery, in most protestant churches, it isn't up to a minister to decide who can or can't be buried there, but the people who own it. Of course, they literally own it because the congregation purchased it.
I realize things are done differently in the Catholic church and I guess then that a catholic congregation member who had loved ones buried in that cemetery knew ahead of time that a non-catholic would not be buried there. I suppse they came to terms with that when they agreed to be bured there themselves. Is there something considered "holy" about that cemetery that keeps non Catholics from being buried there? If so, what are the ramifications of being buried/not being buried in that cemetery?
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Jewish law looks upon suicide............ -- Barb, 13:37:33 08/30/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt7-port-220.dial.telus.net/161.184.52.220)
as a denial of human life that is a devine gift from God. The belief is that an individual should live the life span alloted. If a Jew commits suicide he/she is not permitted to be buried with other Jews in the cemetary, but away from others in the cemetary, and is not entitled to burial and mourning rites.
I have a cousin who was a head nurse. She found life a struggle. Her job was too much for her to handle emotionally and her marriage was a bad one. She committed suicide and my aunt and uncle never spoke of her again as long as she lived, though they adored her. Her brother, though a very religious man...speaks of her with great affection.
Nowadays in the Jewish faith, suicide is no longer considered a sin if one is emotionally in great pain and takes his or her own life. I agree with that completely.
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Re: Jewish law looks upon suicide............ -- Joan, 04:42:02 08/31/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
"Nowadays in the Jewish faith, suicide is no longer considered a sin if one is emotionally in great pain and takes his or her own life. I agree with that completely."
I believe it's the same in the Catholic faith. If the person is mentally ill, suicide isn't considered a sin. Like I said above, for something to be a sin, the person has to know that what she's doing is wrong. Someone who is truly out of touch w/ reality wouldn't know right from wrong.
Joan
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The Catholic Church and suicide -- Joan, 04:45:22 08/31/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
From the catecism -
Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.1
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Protestant Churchs and suicide -- Catie, 06:17:28 08/31/07 Fri [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)
I know it was the same for many protestant churches as well. It seems the more that has come to light about mental illness, depression, etc, the churches are more lenient and understanding. All of that goes to show, imho, that man is so capable of making errors. God doesn't change. I wonder how he felt about churches, christians, et al, condemning folks who didn't deserve the condemnation. Also, it makes me wonder how much more we are wrong in some of our beliefs today. What might be considered "sin" today will not be considered so tomorrow. The church must also be careful of accepting things for the sake of appeasing the public. It all makes me grateful for an all knowing God who understands beyond what we can even imagine!
I won't go into great detail, only to say, Jennifer was terribly paranoid when she died. She was convinced someone was stalking her, out to "get her". It all seemed so sudden to us, because up until the week before she died we'd seen no indication of paranoia. Anyway, in her letters, it was obvious to us there was a lot of fear and unrealistic situations she was dealing with. Yet even to this day, there are those who claim to be Christian who have openly, to my mother in law, speak of how awful that she gave a life dedicated to Christian work, only to throw it all away in the end, to be eternally condemned. That attitude is not only absurdly in contrast to God's mercy and love, but downright mean.
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I absolutely agree with you, Catie................ -- Barb, 07:52:37 08/31/07 Fri [1] (clgrtnt2-port-77.dial.telus.net/161.184.42.77)
that it is humankind that is capable of making errors. There is God's will an human will. We will forever keep growing and learning but we will continue to make errors along the way. Hopefully we will learn from them too. I think that is what life is suppose to be about. It's a learning process from beginning to end.
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Re: I believe it is a sin... -- Phil, 15:17:17 08/30/07 Thu [1] (71-223-16-142.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.16.142)
...and I find these 'justifications' for suicide to be a bit disturbing, frankly.
The Bible says we are not our own; but we are bought with a price (1 Cor. 6:19,20). We belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. For a child of God to take his life would be to rob God of the use of the rest of that life. Perhaps, but suicide?
There are over 25000 suicides in the US every yr, the 10th largest cause of death in our country. Suicide strikes all socio-economic groups, races and creeds. I have lost a friend, a couple comrades-at-arms and nearly a classmate in HS. The most dominant emotion that I felt was anger. I was relieved to find out later that some of my friends felt the same way I did.
Why? Their decisions were rash and certainly irrevocable. When I went to the Mem'l on base for my co-worker and friend of many yrs, who'd committed suicide, I sat in the back of the chapel with my friends who felt the same way I did. We witnessed an outpouring of guilt-driven grief that I'd never witnessed before in my life, and I'd been around. Why did he put us, and worse yet, his family, thru this? It was terribly selfish in my view.
Was he suffering from some disease? No, not that I know of. In fact, he was fit and healthy and only 30 yrs old. He had no financial problems, family difficulties or some bad guys chasing him.
He also passed along hints to folks he didnt like, knowing that he'd already decided to end his life. I saw 1 of them, a mostly unemotional fellow, on his knees, crying from guilt. Another lady, who worked for me, blamed herself and wept bitterly. Maybe if she'd been more friendly to him she said. Fooey! She was the kindest, most thoughtful and able person I had the pleasure to work with. Needless to say, I had to console these folks, both kind, decent people.
For his own selfish reasons, he left behind family and friends who cared for him. How could he do this to himself and us? I still wonder.
The HS classmate of mine nearly committed suicide over breaking up w/ her boy friend. Barb, would you consider her to be in 'emotional pain'? I sure hope not.
The problem is that its so very difficult to draw the line. Dr Kervorkian helped some poor man w/ Lou Gehrig's disease commit suicide. I saw a before/after pic. The man had wasted away to nothing. I felt great pity and sympathy for him. On the other hand, Dr K, 'the Dr of Death', also helped put a lady to death who had a bad case of arthiritis. I have that insidious disease, but to kill oneself over arthiritis? C'mon! Where do we draw the line then? I'm not sure, so I dont.
Japan and Sweden have very high incidents of suicide, even higher pct-wise than us. (I'm aware of the reasons why, but will pro'bly be deleted if I state them.) However, do we want to become like them? No, of cse not! But we will if we find it acceptable for someone to commit suicide for some1 with with 'emotional pain'. I'm sorry folks, that wont do! Barb, I hope you didnt mean it the way I took it.
However, I do NOT believe that folks who commit suicide should be denied a funeral and a decent burial. Much, if not most, of a funeral is for the living. Family, friends and all who knew him need to bury the deceased with honor and dignity...and to mourn him/her. I firmly believe this.
In short, though, I think that we should always side with life. Over the yrs, I've seen how things can unravel after we look the other way when such things occur. Look how abortion has been allowed to run rampant in our country after Roe v Wade (1973). I hope and pray suicide will not go the same way.
Take care, God Bless,
Phil from AZ
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Phil........My cousin............ -- Barb, 17:09:31 08/30/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt2-port-237.dial.telus.net/161.184.42.237)
was in emotional pain to the point where she didn't know her own mind any longer. She lost touch with reality and didn't know the difference between right and wrong by the time she ended her life. That is far different than breaking up over a soured love affair. One must consider individual cases and situations. You simply cannot put all the apples into one barrel. Some will be bruised and some battered...and some completely riddled by worms!
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My statement should have read..."riddled WITH worms." -- Barb, 07:54:06 08/31/07 Fri [1] (clgrtnt2-port-77.dial.telus.net/161.184.42.77)
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