The meaning of co-existence -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 18:20:05 08/18/07 Sat
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: The meaning of co-existence
In reply to: Phil 's message, "Re: On the Dutch event...." on 12:01:35 08/17/07 Fri

"I believe in 'peaceful co-existence' with the Muslim comm'ty, as long as they dont cause any trouble. I do not want to have much to do with Muslims, but will answer them only when spoken to."

This is what really gets me about this thinking. Who gets to say who are the real Americans and deem others virtual guests? Who gets to decide that a particular group is "allowed" to co-exist, as if it were the first groups right to allow or not allow the other to be here, as if this "peaceful co-existence" were a choice of the first group, as if the first group could legally and morally choose otherwise.

I wouldn't associate with a KKK member, but I don't group all Protestants w/ the KKK. Why should anyone group all Muslims w/ radical factions?

FWIW, the KKK was (and is) a "fine" terrorist group itself. They are racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic, and anti-American. They're also Protestants. Should we group all Protestants w/ the KKK and say that we won't talk to any of them (the Protestants) unless spoken to first? Does it make sense to say that we'll tolerate "peaceful co-existence" with Protestants so long as they don't cause trouble?

I know that many, many Protestants think exactly like that--that Catholics, Jews, Blacks, Asians, gay people, and others are tolerated by them, because they are the "real" Americans. They truly believe that others are allowed to be here out of their own good-will. They act like the "others" should be grateful to them for the right to practice their religion, to be black and be able to vote, and other such natural rights. These rights are natural rights. They are God-given. The laws allow us to practice these rights w/o being killed, but what does the law really do? It doesn't give Catholics the right to practice their religion, it prevents others from restricting the Catholic's natural right. The law didn't correct a Catholic problem, it corrected the bad behavior and wrong thinking of those who tried to restrict others' natural right to practice their religion. The law didn't create the right to practice the religion of your choice. It stopped others from restricting the practice of the right. In reality, no one can give these rights to you, and they can't take them away. They can make it impossible for you to practice your rights w/o being punished, but the right is still yours. That's why we say that someone violates another's rights, not that they take the rights away. No one has that power. No person, no political party, no judge, and no terrorist can take your rights away. All they can do is violate them.

Anyway, I started this post to ask you why you wouldn't talk to a Muslim person.

Joan

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Replies:

[> [> [> Re: Joan you're making more outta this.... -- Phil, 21:50:30 08/18/07 Sat [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

...than there really is. I'm simply referring to the fact that I choose not to associate with them. Since I'm ret'd, and no longer an employee of the Fed'l govt, its not a work-place issue. I'm not a landlord, so I dont have to pay much attn to landlord-tenant issues. As far as I know, there are no Muslims in any local club or organization I belong to.

Its just a preference, that's all. Once, when I was going to a 7/11 in TX, I saw an ominous-looking gang of folks on motorcycles on my way out of the store. I chose not to talk to them either. I minded my own biz, and just moved on. So, like that, this is a preference. Nothing more, nothing less.

Its seldom mandatory that I talk to everyone. So I choose not to speak to Muslims, unless they speak to me. My concerns over REAL Americans vs. nominal Americans gets me nowhere. So, for now, I'll just express my right NOT to speak to somebody, since I'm not req'd by law to do so.

If you wanna hang out with them, there's your biz, Joan. LoL. Meanwhile, I chose not to. That's all. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> I think I got it just right. -- Joan, 03:27:32 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Comparing a single Muslim person to a gang of thugs is just what I thought you were doing.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

FWIW, all Americans are real Americans--the non-white Muslim who is a brand new citizen is just as much an American as you are, with equal rights. I know that irks you to no end, but that's an issue that you will have to deal with in your own way. If snubbing someone releives your anger over non-white muslims being allowed equal citizenship and rights, well continue to stick your nose in the air. Just watch out when it rains. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: To brand me a racist is simply not on.... -- Phil, 06:38:57 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

Islam is an Int'l religion, and is an idea, not a race. To brand me a racist because I dont like the fact that religion has been high-jacked by a bunch of blood-thristy thugs, is way out of line. Unfortunately, its typical of folks who dont want to deal with the threat it poses us, nor have they physically done so...as I have. They prefer to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the threat and simply blast the msgr. Its becoming obvious that it would be better for me to shut my mouth, and sit back and wait to shout: "I told you so!" when the worst happens. It reminds me of 1930s Europe, which turned a blind eye to Nazi Germany.

Secondly, I'm much more sophisticated than that; and my rec'd of svc is much more distinguished in the area of Civil Rts than the vast maj'ty of white people. I have actually stood side-by-side with folks who have had legit grievances based on race.

My second gripe is with illegal immigration. That also crosses lines of race, creed and the realm of ideas. In addition to folks of color, there are also 'criminals', here illegally from places such as Eastern Europe and Ireland. In places out West, there are Aussies, New Zealanders, Asians and Pacific Islanders who're here illegally. If we dealt with illegal immigration as a serious legal problem, we wouldnt have such a problem that will cloud our future. Again, folks are looking the other way, with flimsy excuses like it may hurt the economy a lil. Oh pu-leaze!

Finally, it's some of you Northeasterners who are reknown for the snobby behavior, not the places where I've lived. You're the ones with your noses in the air, and now, with a towel over your head...ignoring these 2 serious issues. If you wish to look the other way and ignore these problems, there's not much I can do abt it. Besides, it seems to be an epidemic these days. But please dont cloud the issue further by labelling me a racist. First of all, that is not true, given my rec'd, nor is it fair or wise. Secondly, it does not help much to resovle this very serious debate.

Sincerely,

Phil from AZ...haven for illegal immigrants.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, Phil, I have to say that no one loves you the way you do. ;-) -- Joan, 13:07:07 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Your self-esteem is never low, and you never fail to inform others of your superiority in many, many fields. :-)

"nd now, with a towel over your head...ignoring these 2 serious issues. "

Ah, yes a poorly veiled reference to "towel heads".

And now it's Northeasterns your lumping as a group--to prove that you're not a racist but a sectionalist. All Northeasterns are alike of course, and we are all what non-Northeasterners think we are. If there's a stereotype, it must be true. ;-)

Really, Phil. lol

If you choose to call all Muslims dangerous because of the radicals who claim to be of the same religion, and you choose to call that enlightened, go right ahead. Free speech and all, right?

Did you ever get around to finding the papers you wrote on the last question? You were going to provide some examples.

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I said SOME of you NE'rs... -- Phil from AZ, 13:47:48 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

...which is very mild compared to what other folks I know say abt NE'rs...and Muslim sympathizers, for that matter. As for my 'papers', yes I do have the arguments, but I doubt that you will receive them very well. Rt now, I choose not to fuel the debate further, given the current temp.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sure, Phil. :-) -- Joan, 15:42:03 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

FWIW, no one gets upset with what you say. We know you by now. You're the resident stirrer-upper. We know that. We just wait to see what you will say next. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, I'll admit to provoking thought.... -- Phil, 16:11:55 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

...something that seems to be a lost art nowadays. I'm glad you await my posts eagerly. As you accurately point out, there are a nbr of folks who're informed and entertained by what I post (even if they dont post much themselves), altho sometimes they admit that they dont always agree w/ me. Contrary to conventional wisdom (or lack thereof), I get several emails per week from these folks, encouraging me to express my points of view.

So I shall continue, whether here or thru some other venue. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's it exactly, Phil. :-) -- Joan, 04:36:06 08/20/07 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

What would a forum be without your POV? :-)

Joan

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