Re: Is Mary the mother of God? -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 06:45:39 07/24/07 Tue
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: Re: Is Mary the mother of God?
In reply to: Catie 's message, "Re: Is Mary the mother of God?" on 07:04:40 07/23/07 Mon

Catholics believe that Mary is the mother of God, because Jesus is both human and God. He isn't two persons, so Mary must be the mother of God.

We don't beleive, though, that Mary is the mother of the other two persons of the Trinity.

Holy means being seperate from secular and profance things. It also means being in God's service, so Israel was called holy. So we call Mary, rightfully I think, holy.

We don't think that Mary is a god. We do believe that she, like all the saints in Heaven, can intercede for us. We believe in the communion of saints--all of 'em, not just those we sit next to at work. :-)

The saints are more alive in Heaven than we are here on Earth, and asking Mary to pray for me is no different (accept that I think she might have a little more "pull" ;-)) than asking people on the forum to pray for me.

How do you think of Jesus? I believe that Jesus was both God and Man, fully both. I don't think that he was seperate before birth and became God only after Mary had him. I think he was God and man before birth. When Mary had him, she gave birth to a human who was also God. IMO, that makes her the mother of God.

The more I think about it, the more I think Catholics and others disagree on this because others might not understand the term "mother of God". Maybe they think Catholics believe that Mary existed before God, or that she created God. Or some other strange thing. :-)

I think we both agree that Mary had Jesus who was God and Man, and that he wasn't one w/o the other. If she gave birth to Jesus who was God *and* man, then she is mother to Jesus, fully God and man.

Joan

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[> [> [> Jesus.... -- Neysa, 09:28:58 07/24/07 Tue [1] (user-38lci2p.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.72.89)

I cannot come up with a definitive answer just questions.
I've always thought of Jesus as being seperate from God before he was born, and when he was born and walked the earth as a human. I feel that after he was resurected and went back to heaven he became both Jesus and God, and the Holy Spirit. I feel that the trinity didn't exist before Jesus was born. It was just God and the Holy Spirit.

Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit. If before his birth, if Jesus and God, and the Holy Spirit were the same. It would be as if Mary was conceived by Jesus.

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[> [> [> [> OK, I see where we're talking about different things. -- Joan, 06:03:20 07/25/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

We use the same words but beleive different things.

The Trinity, according the Catholicism, is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is three persons in one God.

All 3 persons are God, but the Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Holy spirit. You get the idea. :-)

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[> [> [> Joan -- Catie, 10:26:17 07/24/07 Tue [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)

"How do you think of Jesus? I believe that Jesus was both God and Man, fully both. I don't think that he was seperate before birth and became God only after Mary had him. I think he was God and man before birth. When Mary had him, she gave birth to a human who was also God. IMO, that makes her the mother of God. "

Technically, in "human" terms yes, Mary could be considered the mother of God. But that speaks to the exclusively to the human/physical side of Jesus.

God in his mighty wisdom chose people on earth to fulfill his promise of a redeemer. None of the people chosen to play a part in the fulfillment of his promise is anything more than a chosen vessel, in my opinion. An honorable job yes, but not anything more. Jesus called the disciples his brothers. Are they his brothers now that he has ascended into heaven? Are they exclusely his brothers? Brothers in the sense that my boys are brothers? He called the women his sisters did he not? Like wise Mary was his mother. Didn't Christ die so that we all may partake of God's eternal life as equals?

God is the creator of all things, so then Mary had her beginnings just as you and I. God is a spirit. He breathed into Adam life. His breath gives life. Mary received HER life from her parents, became a livign soul because of the breath in her body, which comes from God. She can't be the mother of her creator in the sense we know mothers to be. She was clay, human, born of human parents. When it is said she IS the Mother of God then that implies diety of some kind. At least that seems to be the way protestants see it. God is a trinity. God the father, the son and the holy spirit. Mary is not the holy spirit therefore there is no room for her to be part of the God-head.

Geez, I've had one cup of coffee and I am suppose to be in the shower getting ready to go pick up my granddaughter so I am hurrying this along. Did I sound rude or confusing? I hope not rude at lest. lol

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[> [> [> [> Mary as deity -- Joan, 06:19:30 07/25/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"When it is said she IS the Mother of God then that implies diety of some kind."

How do you figure?

A mother can give birth to a genius, and not be a genius herself. She can give birth to one who will become President without being a persident herself.

"Mary received HER life from her parents, became a livign soul because of the breath in her body, which comes from God"

No argument there. She was concieved w/o sin (the immaculate conception), was preserved from sin by God.

"God is a trinity. God the father, the son and the holy spirit. Mary is not the holy spirit therefore there is no room for her to be part of the God-head. "

No argument there either. But that's not what Catholics believe about Mary. No one believes that she is a God of any kind or part of the Trinity. Why would she have to be part of the Trinity to give birth to Jesus? Jesus is both man and God, so we know that Mary is the mother of Jesus who is truly man and truly God. She isn't mother to only one of Jesus' natures, the human. She is mother to Jesus, who has two natures--human and divine.

About the Trinity. Do you believe that the Trinity is 3 persons in one God, that one person of the Trinity is not the other, and that the 3 persons of the Trinity are God?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Mary as deity -- Catie, 06:44:09 07/25/07 Wed [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)

Well I guess to simplify things I will have to say, no, I don't believe Mary IS the mother of God.

I believe Mary was a young virgin girl, temporarily chosen of God to be a vessel. She conceived Jesus through the holy spirit, gave birth and he called her Mother while on earth. Since Christ is one third trinity, we know he was from the beginning of time. He was here before time began as we know it. He had no need of a Mother in the sense that we know it. Yet while Christ was in human form, he needed a human vessel to fulfill his quest. Mary served as his mentor, teacher and mother. She was merely a surrogate. No doubt it was a highly regarded position, not everyone can say I gave birth to the Christ child. But, after Christ ascended into heaven, was seated at the right hand of God, Mary no longer played a role in Jesus life. She served the purpose God intended her to serve. She was human always. She has no powers and no pull with God anymore than anyone else who accepts and believes on Christ.

So I am curious. What purpose does it serve to associate Mary with the resurrected Christ? Why is it acknowledged and emphasised that she is the Mother of God?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Mary as deity -- Joan, 14:22:09 07/25/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Why is it acknowledged and emphasised that she is the Mother of God?"

Because she is. :-)

"She was human always."

Are you thinking that Catholics think that Mary was something other than human?

"What purpose does it serve to associate Mary with the resurrected Christ?"

Why do Protestants assume that God dropped Mary after the resurrection, that she no longer played a role in his life? Don't we all interact (in a way) with God when
we respond to the Holy Spirit?

Mary is the mother of Jesus who is truly God and man at the same time. He didn't drop his Godness (like that word?) to become a man. So Mary is his mother. Since he is both God and Man at the same time, Mary is the mother of God.

I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by "associate Mary with the resurrected Christ"? How do you think we make this association.

Do you believe that Jesus was God while he was on Earth? Do you believe that he was truly man while on Earth? Do you believe that he was both truly man and truly god?

joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Mary as deity -- Catie, 04:17:54 07/26/07 Thu [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)

I believe Jesus is a third of the trinity, the God-head. He became flesh in order to live among us here on earth. He was crucified, died and rose from the dead and is now ascended to the right hand throne of God where ever makes intercession on our behalf.

It seems to me that Catholics regard Mary in a way that is beyond human capabilities. They seem (to me at least) act as though she's still alive and is capable of doing deeds attributed to God. (work miracles, answer prayers, etc) If she was but human, how can she have any special "pull" with God, mores so than anyone else? The scriptures say God is not a respector of persons. My stand is that God used Mary ("used" lack of better term) for the purpose he intended, a human vessel, surrogate, et al. She was human, she lived and she died. She is deceased. She has now, nor has she ever had any power other than that of a beloved Mother.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Mary's Call -- Joan, 04:48:51 07/27/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"It seems to me that Catholics regard Mary in a way that is beyond human capabilities. They seem (to me at least) act as though she's still alive and is capable of doing deeds attributed to God. (work miracles, answer prayers, etc) If she was but human, how can she have any special "pull" with God, mores so than anyone else? The scriptures say God is not a respector of persons. My stand is that God used Mary ("used" lack of better term) for the purpose he intended, a human vessel, surrogate, et al. She was human, she lived and she died. She is deceased. She has now, nor has she ever had any power other than that of a beloved Mother."

This is another thing that confuses me about "Bible only" Christians. Though the Bible sets Mary aside as special, the "Bible Only" Christians don't accept it. The Bible calls her "Hail, full of Grace." No one else in the Bible is called *full* of grace. She is called blessed among women, yet the "Bible Only" Christians afford her no special place among women.

"They seem (to me at least) act as though she's still alive and is capable of doing deeds attributed to God."

This is where, I think, the CC fails to get it's true position out there in a clear way. But then few will accept the truth anyway, so I can see why the leaders don't bother. When we explain what the true belief on a matter is, others accuse us of lying, or of misunderstanding what we're actually doing. :-) Not true.

Yes, we believe that Mary is alive. Alive in Heaven, as every other soul in Heaven is alive.

We believe in intercessory prayer by the Saints in Heaven who are more alive than we are on Earth. We don't believe that they perform miracles. We believe that miracles are performed by God through intercessory prayer of the saints, those in Heaven or our freinds on Earth. You can pray for yourself of course. But we also believe in intercessory prayer. We believe in the true communion of saints, not the limited understanding that other Christian groups have of the communion.

But I don't know why people have such a problem with Mary alone, above all of the other saints that we might ask for help. I say a prayer to St Michael every Sunday for the end to war in the world.

"St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle.

Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil.

May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,

and do thou, oh prince of the heavenly hosts,

**by the power of GOD**,

thrust into Hell Satan and the other evil spirits who prowl about the world for the ruin of souls. Amen."

And in the Hail Mary prayer.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
**pray for us sinners**,
now and at the hour of our death."

These are petition to these Saints for help. They aren't addressed as if we think they are gods.

Why do so many Protestants, after hearing the truth, insist that we are treating Mary as a God?

Why don't they believe in the Communion of Saints and that those in Heaven are impotent to help us, but those on Earth who might still be stained w/ their own sins, have the power to petition God. Aren't the Saints in Heaven more alive than we are? Doesn't the Bible say that our petitions are placed before God in Heaven by others? Who are those others, then, if not the Saints. If the Saints can place the petitions before God, they must have knowledge of us and our sufferings (a concept that's also supported by the Bible). And that is proof of the true Communion of Saints.

We do believe that Mary is special, because it says she is in the Bible--"blessed art thou among women".

Joan

PS: Believing that she is blessed among women doens't mean that we beleive that she is a God.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Please excuse the typos. Also... -- Joan, 04:53:02 07/27/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"and that those in Heaven are impotent to help us, but those on Earth who might"

Should be

but instead, that those in Heaven are impotent to help us, and those on Earth...

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