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Date Posted: 05:54:56 07/17/07 Tue
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: Prayers for the dead.
In reply to:
Catie
's message, "Re: Last Rites- Protestant Question" on 18:00:55 07/16/07 Mon
I believe that it's important to pray for the dead (from the OT).
When someone dies, there are three things that can happen. Immediate entrance to Heaven. Immediate damnation to Hell. Those two don't require prayers. The one is in a hopeless state and can't benefit from our prayers. The other is in Heaven and doesn't need our prayers.
The 3rd does need our prayers. Since nothing unclean can enter into Heaven (a biblical idea), someone with unconfessed venial sins must be cleansed. People who've confessed mortal sins also must be cleansed, if their debt hasn't been fulfilled in life. That state of cleansing is what we call Purgatory, and the people there can use our prayers.
A lot of people mistake Purgatory for a test, as if a person in Purgatory might eventually be damned to Hell. But this is a state of purification rather than an evaluation. A person enduring purification can only go to Heaven.
So we pray for those in Purgatory--to shorten their "time" there. We don't pray because they might go to Hell. :-)
Anyway, that's my take on prayers for the dead.
Joan
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Joan -- Catie, 08:23:09 07/17/07 Tue [1] (h95.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.95)
All of that is very interesting and a little confusing at the same time. :) Where did the practice of praying for the dead come from initially? Please can you tell me the latest with the church's stand on purgatory. Where did the idea of purgatory originate?
See, for the most part, protestants don't accept the idea of purgatory. I think because of the scripture, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after death the judgment" I can't recall the scripture but I will find it if you need me to.
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Re: Joan -- Joan, 10:30:43 07/17/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
"All of that is very interesting and a little confusing at the same time. :) Where did the practice of praying for the dead come from initially? Please can you tell me the latest with the church's stand on purgatory. Where did the idea of purgatory originate?"
It comes from the OT (Macabees), when it talks about prayers for the dead. The doctrine on Purgatory hasn't changed over the years (that I know of).
Here is the entry on Purgatory and prayer for the dead in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
"1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[604] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[605] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[606]"
Me again. "Formulated" doesn't mean invented. It means defined. So, the practice of prayer for the dead and knowledge of Purgatory had been around since the beginning, but it was "formulated", meaning definitively defined, at the councils listed above. We usually get these oficial definitions in response to heresy. I haven't researched it, but there was probably at least 2 times when confusion or heresy regarding prayers for the dead and Purgatory had crept into people's understanding.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[607] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[608] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[609]"
See, for the most part, protestants don't accept the idea of purgatory. I think because of the scripture, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after death the judgment" I can't recall the scripture but I will find it if you need me to."
The short answer is that the Purgatory doesn't negate judgment. The judgment is made before entering Purgatory, the state of purification. Once a person is in a state of purification, there is only one way out--to Heaven. The judgment has already been made. No one goes from Purgatory to Hell. It's either straight to Heaven or Hell, or to a state of purification, since we know that nothing impure can enter heaven. Those who die w/ the stain of sin will enter a state of purification (Purgatory) before entering Heaven, which is the only place they can "go" from Purgatory. They aren't awaiting judgment in Purgatory. Because of the judgment, they are undergoing purification in order to enter Heaven in a pure state, since you have to be pure to enter Heave.
I hope I haven't muddied the waters even further.
In short, the Catholics do believe in the judgment at death. They also believe that if a person dies w/ the stain of any sin, they will have to be purified to enter Heaven. So once God has decided at the judgment that they do merit Heaven, they undergo purification (Purgatory) before their entry to Heaven. This is why we pray for them. They aren't in a hopeless sate. They aren't waiting for judgment. They have been judged already.
Joan
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Re: I agree with Catie... -- Phil from AZ, 15:29:39 07/17/07 Tue [1] (71-223-21-236.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.21.236)
As far as I know, there is no Biblical reference to any concept of purgatory. The ones you provided are merely veiled references to the concept. I believe that, very soon after death, the fate of that person is already decided. Thus, my prayers go out to the family, friends and associates of the living for their loss. I also respect the memory of the deceased.
Still, I am aware of the concept of purgatory and respect Catholics' teaching of it. Take care, God Bless,
Phil from arid AZ
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Re: I agree with Catie... -- Joan, 16:11:17 07/17/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
"As far as I know, there is no Biblical reference to any concept of purgatory. The ones you provided are merely veiled references to the concept."
There are lots of things that aren't mentioned by name (the names people later gave to the concepts). Trinity is the biggie. :-)
Joan
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