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Subject: God's benefit package


Author:
Tim
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Date Posted: 10:41:56 09/20/10 Mon

Talk about a Universal Health Care Package!

You can't beat the benefits of serving the One True God!!

King David, of David and Goliath fame wrote:

Bless the Lord oh my soul and ALL that is within me, Bless His Holy Name!

Bless the Lord, oh my soul and forget not ALL His benefits!

- Who forgives ALL your transgressions!

- Who heals ALL your diseases!

- Who redeems your very life from destruction!

- Who crowns you with loving kindness and tender mercies!

- Who satisfies your mouth with ALL good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagles!

And these are just the benefits IN THIS LIFE! The biggest benefit of all is the ETERNAL LIFE in heaven clause for those who sign up for the policy on this side!!!

there's no discount for early sign-up (same deal for all!)

You could also call it an Eternal LIFE insurance policy with health benefits for the here and now...

then again you could take your chances with the serve yourself plan...or the serve no one plan...both of which sound strikingly similar to the devils plan...it may sound HOT at first, but don't forget to read the fine print!!!

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Replies:
[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 20:54:17 09/20/10 Mon

Explain why my plan sounds like the Devils plan. How come you bible bangers always have to attack like that. What is strikingly similar? I don't believe I ever mentioned burning in Hell. I am pretty sure I was quite clear about there being no Hell and no down side to not pledging allegiance to your false profit.

I am insured by the way. So is everyone in my family. God didn't do it, we did.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 06:28:54 09/21/10 Tue

Gods Universal Health Care Package? What snake oil salesman you turned out to be. Its a cruel joke to even use that label in the name of your God. More poor uninsured people are lured in to the whole god delusion then anyone. They generally have no health care and you go and make fun of their situation.

Tim the 25 top hedge fund managers in the USA made over a billion dollars each in income last year. 1 Billion dollars would pay the salaries of guess how many teachers with benefits? If the cost to employ 1 teacher with benefits was 100K you could employ 10,000 for just one hedge fund managers salary last year. What is a hedge fund? Its a pile of money that gets moved around quickly by computers. One guy commands the salaries of more then 10,000 teachers. Think about it. It makes no sense at all. Universal Health care could have been paid for by the investment in Iraq. You voted for the jerk that put us there. You need to stop and think before you write stupid stuff. God offers nothing to anyone because we actually already have it. It is a mean shell game you play by pitting insecurity against personal need. Just make them think they find something. Impossible to be held accountable for anything. Grow up and get real.

Hey Tim I am riding my Red BMW motorcycle to work today. God gave it to me because he likes me better.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:10:19 09/21/10 Tue

This is why "Freedom is not free" my questioning friend.

God the Father laid down the life of His only Son to buy us back from the devil. When we accept this Truth we lay down our life of ignorant bliss and with it our selfish ambitions to serve others. It can be a painful process, like when Jesus Himself went to the cross, but with it comes joy unspeakable!

The plan is simple but the Bible says while many are called, few will enter the narrow Way that leads to Life. You are blessed to know someone who has entered in and I can tell you honestly my friend there is no one and no thing that I have left behind that is more precious than what I have NOW and what I have to look forward to in the days and eons to come!

Thanks again for visiting my forum and sharing your reality with the world.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Shane
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Date Posted: 08:20:35 09/21/10 Tue

Freedom is free or it isn't freedom!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Shane
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Date Posted: 09:37:03 09/21/10 Tue

The present moment is always small in the sense that it is always simple, but concealed within lies the greatest power. When you align yourself with the present moment - you have access to that power. Or it may be more true to say that it then has access to you and through you to this world. That is what Jesus meant when He said; "It is not I but the Father within me who does the work". And "I can of my own self do nothing". Anxiety, stress, and wondering whether you will be saved or not cuts you off from that power. The illusion that you are separate from the power that runs the Universe returns. You feel yourself to be alone again,struggling against something or trying to achieve this or that. And why did anxiety and stress return? You turned away from the present moment. Through the present moment you have access to the power of life itself, which has traditionally been called "God". As soon as you turn away from it, God ceases to be a reality in your life , and all you are left with is a mental concept of God, which some people believe in while others deny. Even belief in God is a poor substitute for the living reality of God manifesting every moment of your life.
We can observe a sapling growing in the forest and say that the sapling wants to become a tree, but the sapling doesn't want anything because it is at one with the totality, and the totality acts through it. We could say that the totality-Life-wants the sapling to become a tree, but the sapling doesn't see itself as separate from life and so wants nothing for itself. It is at one with what life wants, so it isn't worried or stressed. And if it has to die pre-maturely it dies with ease. It is surrendered in death as much as it is surrendered in life because it sense it's rootedness in Being-the formless and eternal One Life. When you are at one with what life wants then service is no longer necessary.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 18:56:16 09/21/10 Tue

Freedom is free. Tim you try very hard to eliminate freedom in your life. You constrain everything with requirements from the past for the future. You are the looser in the end.

Shane is correct that you need to live in the moment, deal with whats in front of you not what you believe the past demands for the future. Eternity is happening right now. It doesn't mean you get to stay forever. You get to stay right now and that is the only thing you can expect.

You didn't answer my questions either. I am not the devil and neither is anyone else. The Devil is just the reverse of your God. One justifies the other. Take away one the other disappears.

I know you will not hear any of this. You have the bible stuffed in your ears.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 13:22:32 09/22/10 Wed

lets recap:

We have three positions represented here. The servant of God position put forth by yours truly, the servant of Self position put forth by Bob; this could also be called the servant of wife position and finally, the servant to No one position put forth by Shane. Some of this discussion has spilled over from the 'slaves must obey' thread started earlier, where I quoted Bob Dylan from His 'Saved' album (or was it Slow Train Coming? sorry, I'll GIL - google it later).

Zimmy says, "you gotta serve somebody...it may be the devil, or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody.." This is perhaps a simplistic way of saying it, but the gospel message of Jesus Christ really isn't supposed to be complicated...

I'll remind everyone visiting that we are not having a debate here on the Tim O'Rourke Forum. I'm a Christian who is simply putting forth a dialogue on the worldwide web, and as the spirit moves me, I share. It is representative of a Christian Worldview. Anything that contradicts this would be like somebody going to the steps of the Capitol Building in Washington DC and arguing against Democracy, or to put it in a more biblical perspective, it would be like Moses going to the house of Pharoah and with a wooden rod in his hand demanding that the Pharoah let his people go! Like the Pharoah, I'm the big dog on the Tim O'Rourke website (with the possible exception of Joe, who still has the upper hand as webMASTER - I do believe that Joe regardless of his views on spiritual things is a good webmaster)

But back to the analogy, I would be representing the Pharoah here and everyone who puts up a contrary position would be representing a Moses!

Now God's Word IS the ultimate authority, not mine, but it has been made clear by the two with opposing viewpoints to mine that God's Word is not THE AUTHORITY over ALL.

The visitors who oppose me, as I indicated earlier, are my slaves to do with as I please. I am grateful for their service to me on this site. I would like to publically thank them both for coming and sharing here from their hearts (the Bible says that out of the mouth the heart speaketh!). I can't imagine a better way to proclaim God's Word on the subject, any subject, than from the mouth of those who do not espouse it!

You have blessed me with your presence and all those who bless me will be blessed!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Shane
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Date Posted: 17:45:59 09/22/10 Wed

I don't view my response to your postings as an opposing viewpoint. And I truly believe that the words spoken by Jesus Christ are applicable to everyone. In fact, as a culture we need more of what he points to - not less. As you spoke of earlier, Jesus said; "I've come so that you might have life and have it more abundantly". Who doesn't want more joy, happiness, and peace in their life? I certainly do and when I apply His wisdom to my life (wisdom is justified by its deeds)life is so much easier. As He said;"My burden is easy and my yoke is light". In terms of service to somebody - Jesus said; " You will know the truth and the truth will set you free". You cannot be free and serve anyone. You can however be guided by the Master's voice. I once heard a voice say to me; "Don't walk behind me and don't walk in front of me, but walk beside Me and be my friend. I couldn't asked for a better friend and I feel blessed every moment of my life.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 20:58:08 09/22/10 Wed

So whats the big deal then? If we are all blessed then what is there to talk about? Why bother with spending any more time in that direction.

I assume this means you will be coming the Fall event and supporting your dear friend David? This is of course a blessing right? Come on Tim walk the walk.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 21:52:36 09/22/10 Wed

i think the waters have parted...Shane is a friend of God and therefore a friend of mine and Bob is also extending an olive branch.

I may just walk into the camp and hold a Bible Study!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Shane
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Date Posted: 13:55:02 09/23/10 Thu

The prince of peace strikes again!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 18:52:54 09/23/10 Thu

Tim, Burn your Bible, its old news. The prince of peace? Tim is attempting to stop our words with his silliness. They train for adversity. Its a tool in his tool box. Cover your ears, run run.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 06:29:02 09/25/10 Sat

Gods house?

http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-ultra-deep-field-3d.htm

Not to beat a dead horse but look at this

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 15:15:51 09/27/10 Mon

thanks for sharing, bob. I deleted the link you posted because I'm not propagating negative stuff here about anyone. He's a brother and all of us are susceptible to falling away and serving other gods; the god of money, the god of sex; you name it and if it is not the One True God it can be made into a god by man. This is why we worship the sinless Lamb of God who was sent to take away our sins. Not any person, no matter how good and holy they are perceived to be can take the place of the one who died to make men free. Godly is as godly does and sin is sin is sin no matter who perpetrates it!

If your point is that men can't be trusted, then it is well taken. This plus your awesome video of the hubble telescope once again only confirms what I have said from the beginning. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. God can't be contained no matter how big your box may be!

The photo's say it loud and clear, DON'T BOX ME IN!!!!!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 19:28:49 09/27/10 Mon

Well I guess I only posted the Pastor who fell from grace to illustrate a point. It is very common today as it has been throughout recorded history for those involved in all churches to do exactly the opposite of what they preached. There is no Gods benefit package and that guy was exploiting the idea as all who point at it do.

As far as the Hubble images go they undermine your idea that anyone created the entire universe. Tim its too big, its too random and it just is not possible one thing made the whole mess at least from where I sit. The simple fact that we know not how far it goes leads to the conclusion that anything is possible. It also means that its just as likely there were millions of creators or non at all. It could be that the universe just expands and contracts over and over in perpetual motion. The sky is no limit and you will never understand the universe by reading the bible over and over. It contains no information. Its is an essay on common sense written by men for those who needed answers. You are a member of their target audience. Which is why you buy it. If you had my prospective you would dismiss it for what it is. Its like an elementary math book which you can figure out on your own. No need to carry it around and keep pointing to fractions or ratios.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:28:41 09/28/10 Tue

you say 'anything is possible' and I agree and say it comes down to this, either you are right (there is no God) and I am wrong, or vice versa. Either way, I win!

My point, for those watching is that there are benefits to believing in the God of the Bible that are applicable in the here and now and not just for the sweet by and by.

I admit that we Christians have not always been good at conveying this to a world that is perishing without Christ. We have weaknesses and foibles (look it up bob) and someday we will have to stand before the King of Kings to answer for our wrongs in this life, not just our words and deeds but our thoughts and motives too. But thankfully, I serve a God who created me and knows my heart (He redeemed it - actually bought it back from the one whom I previously served in ignorance). And for all of us who sincerely "give away that which we cannot keep (our own souls) to gain that what we cannot lose" (a relationship with the God of Heaven through His Son, the promised Messiah), we can expect 'goodness and mercy' to 'follow us all the days of our lives' AND when we get to the end of this life, we get to dwell in the house of the LORD forever!

not a bad deal; believe it or not.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Shane
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Date Posted: 11:39:58 09/28/10 Tue

I've decided that the time is right for me to depart from this forum and no longer contribute to any on-going debate. It's nothing personal. It simply doesn't feel right for me to say anything further. I've enjoyed our discussions.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 12:08:49 09/28/10 Tue

a Rogerian philosopher once said:

"you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away and know when to run; every hand's a winner and every hand's a loser and the secret to survivin' is knowin' what to throw away and knowin' what to keep"

I too have enjoyed the banter and salute you for your participation.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 18:54:30 09/29/10 Wed

Shane is probably correct in stopping this waste of typing. Tim is not going to alter his views without a 2X4 upside the head. I am not really sure why I attempt to reason with the boy. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way when he insists his view is the only one the offers a full and meaningful life. This is just not true. You don't need the bible to live fully and enjoy your self. Life without the bible is in no way lesser then one that carries it around constantly.

There is really nothing left to say about it.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:23:34 12/13/10 Mon

These are some famous last words from one of my biggest contributors here at the Tim O'Rourke Forum. My dear friend, if there was really nothing left for you to say it would certainly be a one-sided conversation here.

We may have opposing viewpoints, but I appreciate your willingness to post yours for all to see. As for the comment here that Tim is not going to alter his view,
I have to say in response that my whole pursuit in life is to learn everything I can, or another way of putting it may be to unlearn everything. I want to have a teachable spirit and to remain open to what God is saying at all times. He is constantly at work trying to get a message through that will benefit me and all who seek Him. Maintaining a thought pattern or a way of thinking that does not allow the spirit to move me to new heigths of appreciation for what I have been given is to live on the lowest plane; fleshly, seeking only things that give me pleasure or comfort. I've tried this way of life and have found something better!

For all of you who visit here and are watching the banter and perhaps some who stumble in off the world wide web, there is more to the picture than meets the eye. There is more to life and the pursuit of happiness than self gratification. Life is very short and the Bible says that all who seek the Truth shall find it and all who ask for wisdom will be given it. As another year comes to a close here, I challenge all who visit to consider what the Bible offers. From Genesis to Revelation there are 66 books in all with One common thread that has comforted and encouraged millions down through the ages with a benefit package beyond comparison with anything the world has to offer.

It is a choice, a decision that every man, woman and child is confronted with every day. It is not too mysterious, or hidden as the writer of Deuteronomy says in chapter 30 verse 11, But vs 14 says, the word is very near you in your mouth and in your heart that you may do it?

I am challenged today to do the word. To live on a higher plane. To remain steadfast and secure in what I have believed and to reach out and share it with others in love.

May all who enter here be blessed in Jesus' name. amen.

T.O. 12/13/2010

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 13:04:13 12/14/10 Tue

Tim they are not famous and they are not my last words. I am still kicking so I have lots of words.

For all you know Tim I am the one speaking the truth and I could have been sent by the Flying spaghetti monster to inform you.

To your comment " There is more to life and the pursuit of happiness than self gratification"

This is a label you put on my view. Its the foundation of your method. Step one demean the opposing view. Step two place yourself on a pedestal above, better,superior to the opposing view.

You have nothing other then your assertion to back you up and I have nothing but mine. It makes our outlooks equal in value. You have the right to disillusionment and you can stick to the same tired rant attempting to defend it. The very fact that you do means you are insecure in your belief

From Genesis to Revelation there are 66 books in all with One common thread that has comforted, encouraged, killed and overrun millions down through the ages. The benefit was if you towed the line you could live for a long time.

This quote is choice

"It is a choice, a decision that every man, woman and child is confronted with every day".

Most people don't think about the questions you wrestle with everyday Tim. You do because you are searching for answers. A lot of people are very co0mfortable with their outlook and don't need your input.

You always fail to define this higher plane you talk about. What exactly places you higher then 5 or 6 billion people on this planet. I know you want to think you are better but put some flesh on the bones of higher plane. I don't think you can because I firmly believe there is not an outlook a person can have in terms of their place in the cosmos that makes one man better then another. I may not want to hang with some but they are free to think what ever they want.


I am challenged today to do the work that I showed up for. I just want to do well and live for the next adventure. Its not self gratification any more then your outlook is. I prefer to think of life's benefits as being a game of chance. We were all very luck to be spawned here and have all this. We could have easily been born in the Congo and been raped by the time we were twelve. We could have been born into a jungle somewhere or down town Detroit. We are not chosen ones we are lucky.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 16:46:38 12/14/10 Tue

The common thread from Genesis to Revelation is JESUS, the Christ, the Son of God. HE said, I am the light of the world. The Bible says He is the same yesterday, today and forever; the word of God made flesh. He dwelt among us and went before us as an example for all who would choose to follow Him. He is the Master and we too can be like Him as we develop spiritually day by day.

Is it easy? He actually said that when we take on His yoke it IS EASY and His burden He said, IS LIGHT. But this will only make sense to someone who is born again. Jesus said in John's gospel chapter 3, Marvel not that you must be born again! It is a prerequisite to understanding the message, the promises and the favor and blessing of God.

Light dispels the darkness. It doesn't take much light to do it, but those who dwell in darkness hate the light.

'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." John 3:19-21

This is the higher plane. You have come to the light and are fluttering about like a moth. If you continue to stay exposed to the light, you will eventually succomb to it!

Jesus is the light and in the light is the power!

And this is the hope for all mankind, that the light has come and all who heed this light do well 'until the day dawns and the morning star rises in their hearts' - 2 Peter 1:19

Come again.

'To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.' - 2 Peter 1:1,2

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 06:06:42 12/15/10 Wed

The Higher plane is still left unexplained as usual. You are unable to describe it.

Moths are fooled by light bulbs Tim. They end up beating them selves to death just like you do. The bulb is a false trigger to their natural desire to mate in the light. The Bible is similar in that is falsely triggers a sense of security by allowing you to ignore reality with its circular logic. It teaches nothing and only postpones real understanding.

You are not offering a higher plane you are offering a card board box to hide in.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 07:59:50 12/15/10 Wed

the moth will die when it comes to the light. it is like the sinner who comes to the cross. Like the seed, it must die before it can produce new life. The born again spirit is is representative of a death; the death of self. But out of this death comes a renewal, a rebirth which leads to a new life, a better life, a higher plane.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 09:50:35 12/15/10 Wed

it's like trying to describe childhood to an infant, or old age to an adolescent. Until you experience it for yourself it is, as you say, only words on a page.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 10:00:59 12/15/10 Wed

Jesus said it best, He said, "it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." - John 6:63

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Shane
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Date Posted: 10:06:36 12/15/10 Wed

The mind seeks what is dead, for the living escapes it.
Miguel de Anamundo

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 06:07:56 12/16/10 Thu

thanks Shane,

Discovering Miguel de Unamuno
by María L. Trigos-Gilbert

October 27, 1998

Miguel de Unamuno is the writer of the masterpiece called San Manuel Bueno, mártir, Saint Manuel Good Martyr; this is one of his best works. The life of Unamuno wasn’t easy since he was always crying out for acceptance in the Spanish world. Unamuno was a native of the Basque Country, and as a consequence this didn’t count in his favor. His language and his demeanor differed greatly with the Spaniards’, people from Spain. Nevertheless, he attended the best universities and studied Spanish as much as any educated Spanish speaking person would have done it in during those years (1865-1936) in the European country of Spain.

His work speaks for himself, and it speaks a language of excellence. The passion, that we see in his works, is tremendous. Mr. Unamuno is well known around the world, and in case you say, "How come I haven’t heard about him?" I would just say that it may has been a lack of choices at those times that you have had the possibilities of reading different authors from different countries. It is never too late when there is still time!

Lack of Faith; Good or Bad?
Unamuno is one of those writers who makes ourselves ask where does his fiction start, and where does his fiction end since there are moments that his work has been related to his own life, the life of Saint Manuel Good Martyr. It is also mandatory to say that Unamuno forms part of that famous ’98, 1898, Generation. This is a generation of chaos, confusion, in Spain during that time. Spain has been experiencing a huge crises which is generalized in the Spaniards’ society, government, economic, and military system. Saint Manuel Good Martyr touches all those aspects, except the military system. Yet Unamuno emphasizes the religious life that the Spaniards have been having for a long time in the Catholic religion.

Unamuno is almost challenging the Spaniards’ way of thinking as if he is saying, Let’s question our faith; do we really believe? Or are we just accepting what it has been taught to us? It is the constant battle within oneself that the religious people of Spain face. It is the constant debate within oneself: Should we take existence as matter of God’s work? Or as a matter of men’s invention? Those questions have been in the Spaniards’ mind for a long time, and perhaps in everyone’s mind around the world. Saint Manuel Good Martyr is the portrait of a self sacrifice, living in a society that has been made to believe no matter what. Mr. Manuel believes in God, but he has a very difficult time accepting paradise, an everlasting life after physical death.

Life After Death?
Mr. Manuel is a priest of the Catholic church; he is preaching to everybody, but he would not talk about life after death, and even more he tells them that there is just one life. This life is on earth. So they must make the best of it, hoping to live life as a huge dream with nightmares filtering in it. He is always busy, helping his town in all possible tasks. His life is a constant work after work, avoiding the thought of the so-called paradise or even the so-called hell. So Mr. Manuel makes of earth his forever promised land, eternity. He prays everything that the Catholic church prays, but "I believe in the resurrection of the flesh and in the eternal life."

Manuel's Disciples
This lack of faith is driving him crazy, and about to give himself away, but his two best disciples, Angela Carballino and her brother Lázaro Carballino, practically save him from saying to all his church and town his deep feelings. He confides his thoughts and feelings to Lázaro, a young man who is not a religious person. Lázaro becomes a believer in God with Mr. Manuel’s teachings and talks; yet Mr. Manuel makes clear to Lázaro that he doesn’t think there is a paradise or hell. All those things are right here on earth as far as Mr. Manuel is concerned. He tells Lázaro to pretend his faith because he doesn’t want the people in the town to feel, think, or believe that there is not hell or paradise.

When Lázaro tells his sister, Angela, how he becomes a Christian, Angela is speechless. She has some sadness and bitterness toward such a conversion. Angela is the one who believes in God and all the Catholic church teaches, though she questions some of the teachings and beliefs.

Manuel's Fragility
Angela and Lázaro don’t question or judge Mr. Manuel, their priest. Angela feels a deep compassion toward Mr. Manuel, and now understands the inexplicable sadness that draws his face at times, although he works his gestures pretty well in order to hold himself up in the religious world. For Mr. Manuel it is enough to say to his people the trust that he has what the Catholic Church professes.

He literally says, "To believe in the Catholic Church and its beliefs are enough, enough!" He shows an absolutist way of conducting his services and Catholic life, but deep inside he is fragile and extremely vulnerable to all those beliefs.

Blind Faith
Unamuno shows through the Spanish mind of Mr. Manuel, and that is the stubbornness toward progression, technology, and sciences besides the lack of freedom to question a church’s methods as if there is nothing beyond what has been established.

It could be said the fear of confronting something that one’s faith doesn’t or won’t explain, paralyses the possibility of using the time’s science and technology advancements. This is what Unamuno is trying to point out to the reader. Unamuno is telling Spain it is okay to question; it is okay to have different beliefs, and it is okay to use technology and science tools to get what we need. He is telling Spain to wake up and smell the coffee. Why would people have a blind faith? Why not to question? Why? Why not? Unamuno knows what is not to be accepted; he knows how it feels to be overlooked by the so-called important and religious people of Spain. This is why his work at times seems kind of personal.

A writer, whose name I do not remember, once said, "The matter of writing is a painful road. You end up being and meditating of those undesirable places and peoples that have been making your life’s collage. Yet you also get in touch with those good memories that some other people and places have left. The matter of writing is serious" I must admit that I am quoting this author whose name I have already forgotten because although he didn’t say every single thing as I wrote it, I am not the one with those thoughts and must respect his words. Yet I do agree with the author greatly, "The matter of writing is serious." You may even remember the famous Robert Frost, ". . . the road less traveled . . . " Yes, this is the writer’s work a bit spacious, but never so lonely.

Faked Faith
Mr. Manuel is like an existentialist Christian; he knows that he doesn’t have a way of proving his beliefs or the lack of them, nor does he have a way of proving them wrong. Yet it would be very nice for him to prove either one, but it won’t happen. Mr. Manuel the martyr drives many people in his town closer to God with a faked faith, but Lázaro knows his secret and becomes his partner in the task.

We would think that Lázaro should hate him for his lack of believing and his many sermons contradicting his thoughts. Yet it happens to the contrary; Lázaro thinks of him as a real good man, good saint, " . . . Sister, he is a saint, a real saint . . . because his cause is a holy cause, super holy . . . for the peace, for the happiness, for the illusion if you would, of those that are charged to his care not a fraud." That’s the plan that these two religious partners, Mr. Manuel and Lázaro, have to make people believe and keep their beliefs. This kind of confidentiality among these two crazy guys, if you would call them so, ties them forever, for all the remaining time of their lives.

Mr. Manuel grows older and each day is graver to him, to his rare faith and work. He dies and before he dies, he is sure to tell these two disciples of him, Lázaro and Angela, to please keep believing and if not FAKE IT. He tells Lázaro when he is dying with a very ill voice that there is not more than this earth. He thinks that he is Moses. Lázaro is Joshua, and he must try to do better than he has been doing, but must not expect too much out of nothing.

Uanmuno's Universal Novel
I guess that by this time you are almost about to vomit. I feel the same way when I am reading Unamuno’s novel because I don’t conceive the idea of someone who chooses a faith demanding profession without the needed quality if we may name it "quality" the matter of having faith. Why would a person become a priest, a Catholic priest, if he doesn’t believe there is a paradise or a hell waiting for us after physical death? I don’t know, and I have found out that Unamuno’s work is pretty universal because what was thought to be a unique problem in Spain, seems to be an ubiquitous problem.

Spain: Yesterday and Today
Mr. Manuel may have become a Catholic priest because it is Spain’s main choice, a productive and an astounding choice of all times. We must recall a bit of Spain’s history: Spain in 1492 sent Christopher Columbus on a huge important voyage. He counts with the Spaniard queen’s and king’s money support and with the Catholic Church of Spain’s blessing. What do they do in order for the whole journey to turn out like a real success? They send Christopher Columbus with many priests on the three ships. Why would they do that? "Because if you are not a Catholic, you are ‘lost’."

The Catholic church is managing Spain as much as the queen and king are in that time of Spain’s powers. They continue to manage Spain’s life, and it is pretty remarkable to be a priest plus it is profitable. Now, I guess that you may be saying that things haven’t changed, and that they don’t seem that way just in Spain. I live in the northeast side of the USA’s south side, and it seems to me there are many people who have God in their "hearts" like a money-maker. I do believe that God has money, and please don’t think that I am being disrespectful. I am just being sincere. God has money, but He is not like a Miss Universe coach, preparing a bunch of girls to go into competition against other.

Questioning the Title
The other question that comes to my mind is the name of Unamuno’s novel. Is Mr. Manuel a good man? Is Mr. Manuel a martyr? In my opinion he is not a bad man, but he is definitely not a martyr. A martyr is someone who suffers and dies for his cause. Mr. Manuel doesn’t die for his caused in the novel; he dies of old age as more likely most people die. I don’t like people who make themselves martyrs because they don’t seem to have a clear and an honest cause. You may have a problem with my previous thought, opinion, but at least I am trying to make my point across. He, Mr. Manuel, doesn’t have to pretend to believe; it is his choice. He doesn’t have to put such burden on Lázaro, nor on Angela, but he is about to scream to the whole town his lack of beliefs.

It is almost like running for the presidency of a country, knowing deep inside there are no solutions for the country. It is like offering a total healing to a terminally ill person when one knows that it won’t be possible. Mr. Manuel is running against all that progression means for Spain and its people. He is denying the fact of the unstoppable changes that Spain is going to face. Why would a person use religion to dispute reality? As he says in the novel, "Drugs, they want drugs." Is religion a drug? It may be so if one doesn’t think for oneself as any other thing or subject may be in life, unless you ponder the so-called facts.

Why would Lázaro and Angela still respect the man, their teacher, when they find out that he doesn’t believe what he is preaching? The possible answer is that they also have many questions as Angela lets Mr. Manuel know. "Sinners, why are we sinners? Forgiveness, where and what is our sin?" Mr. Manuel never gives her a straight answer, but just says, "Angela, if you believe, keep believing. Pray for us, for Lázaro and me, pray for Jesus Christ." Mr. Manuel thinks that even Jesus Christ needs all the prayers he may get from all those who really have faith in life after death. Lázaro and Angela have many debates in their minds, trying to believe all the time, although reality points something different. Here is the answer; they must show tenderness and understanding toward Mr. Manuel because he is not alone with his huge doubts.

To Believe or Not to Believe
Have you question your beliefs? I have done so, and I have done it many times plus I will keep doing it while I am on this earth. There seems to be things that make us doubt God’s existence as there are many other things that point the indubitable existence of God. Is it okay to question one’s faith? I do think that it is very healthy to do so; otherwise, you may ended up having a blind faith which is not helpful nor healthy. Since I came to the USA, I have gotten sick of seeing so many people with their bumper stickers saying how much Jesus loves them and loves me. Yet how come I feel that the majority are almost showing off?

Most women love to hear from time to time how much their husbands love them. Now, if you ask any of them, what they prefer, they will simply tell you, "I would love to feel it and see it a lot more than I would love to hear it, IF the words don’t match the sentences." Are men different from women? Oh, yes, they are. I lived with an alien, a man, but as people say, "We don’t stand the thought of living without them, nor with them."

Personal Faith
People don’t care how much one knows about religion. People want to know that you and I care, PERIOD! Mr. Manuel does a good job showing people that he cares. He lives doing all kinds of works for them, yet his only and huge mistake is to get involved in a demanding job that is related to faith and to the love of God.

At times I have had my doubts, and I must confess that I have kept them to myself. Why have I done such thing? Well, because it is not nice to tell everybody how thin my faith is at times. Have I kept preaching the Gospel to people in spite of my lack of faith? Yes, I have done so just as Mr. Manuel does in the novel. Have I told anyone about it? I am telling you! Yet there is a difference between me and Mr. Manuel; I believe in Hell as much as I believe in Paradise. That’s why I must behave well! I don’t know about you; I just should speak for myself. It is a personal matter between you and God.

Five Points of My Faith
I have a last question: Do you think that Mr. Manuel is going to Hell or to Paradise? Hum, good question, isn’t it? I will answer that according to the Catholic church beliefs.

A) You are not saved from Hell by good deeds, yet you are not going to Paradise, Heaven, without good deeds.

B) You are not saved if you don’t believe there is a God and that there are things which he has created for our sake and for a purpose on this earth.

C) You are saved by the Grace of God; you are not saved because of your good deeds, nor are you saved because you are an intelligent and sharp person.

D) If one really believes, he must confess God’s name among all human beings.

E) If one really believes, he/she will know there is a life after death, for good or for bad. Where is Mr. Manuel standing? We know that he doesn’t believe in life after death, physical death.

Conclusion
So, is Mr. Manuel going to Paradise? No, he is not! Am I having a legalistic point of view? Yes, I am. Do I have the right to say who is going to Heaven and who is not? No, I don’t have that right. Therefore?

Well, it is up to God who is getting in and who is not! I am pretty thankful toward God that I am not Him because I am not merciful as He is. I am not as good as He is. I guess that we are all thankful that our entrance into Heaven doesn’t depend on our friends, relatives, bosses, co-workers, neighbors, or citizens. Yet, how come we feel that we are always put on the spot? People are quick to point to our mistakes, and we are quick to point to theirs. It is a never ending issue.

Now, although our entrance to Heaven doesn’t depend on someone’s acceptance toward us, I must say that our bad attitudes may keep someone from believing that there is a God, a Paradise, and a Hell. Should we watch our behavior? I think that we should not become so religious in order to have a good behavior. Yet I do think that we must have a relationship with God and a GOOD ONE! Otherwise, life feels more empty than it already feels. Am I preaching to you? YOU BET! Am I being pushing? No, I am not. I am just expressing my thoughts as you do from time to time. I know that to talk about faith is a touchy subject.

Our dear Unamuno knew that while alive, but it didn’t stop him from writing about it, and let me tell you it was pretty difficult to write about those issues in Spain because Spain is not well known for its acceptance of different religions or thoughts. Spaniards are more emotional and faith-driven than logical, if we may use that last term. Are they illogic people? I don’t think so. I just think that we all have our passions. We live and die for those passions, a matter of choice. Life is a constant choice!



GO back Inside


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Copyright © 1998 María L. Trigos-Gilbert
"Go Inside" is a David Boles Trademark

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 20:36:46 12/16/10 Thu

What bunch of crap. You are here and then you are not. There is no Heaven and there is no Hell. Its that simple.

Jeeze!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Jeezus
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Date Posted: 12:34:28 12/18/10 Sat

watch your mouth!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 06:18:56 12/21/10 Tue

Go to Heal Jeezus!

Excuse me go to heal all diseases, I know a few people who are suffering and could use your help. Prove yourself Oh great fictitious invisible friend. Ohmmmmmmmmmm

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:48:30 05/31/11 Tue

I missed this last post from late last year. It represents the mockery and challenge that Jesus Himself was exposed to by the unbelievers in His own day. They said, "Save yourself, Jesus, come down off the cross." They taunted Him saying, "He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God." (Luke 23:35)

Can God save? Can he heal? Can he prosper and bless those he chooses? yes! I know it, I've seen it and I believe it! And how does one become one of those chosen of God for salvation; for healing or for deliverance from every evil, cursed thing? (sickness, disease, poverty, you name it!) The same way He has done it in every generation since His arrival! Before He came to the earth, He had chosen the Jews to be the nation that would fulfill His purpose on earth. Through the Jewish people and their rich history he would show His great love of His creation by sending Jesus of Nazareth to be an example to the rest of the world. His coming was what separated the old and new covenants. The old covenant applied only to the Jews, but now, because of Jesus, the rest of us are also able to enter in and receive the benefits of His covenant as well!

By his birth, life, death and resurrection, He showed the world the Way that leads to eternal Life! The Way, the Truth, and the Life that was in Christ, who came to earth and manifested himself to the world, as it had been spoken of by the prophets before He came and was now available to all who would simply enter in by faith.

By simply choosing to believe in the One who came to save us, to heal us and to deliver and bless us, everyone, including even that convicted felon that hung with Him on the cross that day and would, because he too believed, go to be with Him in paradise!

Just as there were those who did not (would not) believe him when He came to the earth, we are surrounded by those now in our own day who need to see something miraculous in order to believe. It is for them and for all who would be transformed by the amazing grace of God that I continue this forum and am an ambassador for Christ.

Like the disciple Thomas and everyone today who still needs to see a miracle in order to believe and follow, God can and will show you a miracle, but you must first ask.

Ask and it shall be given; Seek and ye shall find; knock and the door shall be opened to you! If there is first a willing mind, it is accepted...are you willing to believe?

Repent ye and believe the gospel!

T.O. - 5/31/2011

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 09:17:17 07/03/11 Sun

Godaholic

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Tim
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Date Posted: 06:06:01 08/06/11 Sat

Jesus tells us in the Bible that hunger and thirst can only be quenched by or through righteousness. Furthermore, He told us that this righteousness is itself a free gift that one gains through belief in Christ and by abiding in his word, or I could say, belief in "the Christ" since He is more than a person that lived and died on the earth; He is also what He did while he lived on the earth and continues to do after his death and resurrection; He is the living word of God forevermore!

Like the 'gift that keeps on giving,' His life, Way and Truth, as He described himself when he was here, is eternal (and that's a long time!) He told the woman at the well, if you drink from Me, the Christ of God, you will never thirst again. But , like I've said before on this thread, it is an understanding that only comes clear to us through the New Birth. This New Birth is described in the third chapter of John and Jesus himself called it a prerequisite of everyone who would to enter the Kingdom of God. It is only when we have entered into this right relationship with Jesus Christ that the Word of God can come alive and becomes more than just words on a page in an 'old dusty book.' The new birth comes through an acceptance of something (someone) that one cannot see with one's physical eyes. It requires an openess to the spiritual realm which can only be entered into through the eyes of faith (the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen).

Entering this realm of faith in God's Word requires a leap from the logical, physical world in which we live, to a world that cannot be seen, but can certainly be experienced; just as any born-again believer will tell you. If it has happened to you, you just know that you know. And most who have experienced this can tell you when and where they were when it happened. But it doesn't stop at a one time experience. It is this experience of faith that is then explained to us through the pages of holy scripture and that brings us into an eternal journey with the God who made us. Now, as believers, we can accept the scriptures as our living guide to eternity. Similarly to the life we lead in the natural realm, it again becomes a logical pursuit and one can connect the dots from Genesis to Revelation to a better and better understanding of God and who we are in Him. As growing believers, Our spirits must continue to hunger and thirst after His righteousness as long as we live in this fleshly realm! This is why Paul said, I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless, I live, and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God.

If we lose our hunger for God's word, we can lose our way! Heaven is our destination and it cannot be substituted here on earth by reaching a plateau of experience or even of doctrinal understanding; we must continue to strive for it (Heaven) until we reach it! Heaven is not just a state of mind! It is a real place where Jesus is and wants to take us to NOW and when this life is over. NOW and THEN will be significant there!

For those who have not yet made the decision to go there? Heaven? What can I say? Well, this is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Fear God and don't stop fearing Him! There is another destination for man, but it is Hell. Faith is the first step you take to Heaven. It may seem like a scary leap from where you are today, but it is a necessary step that will clarify everything, once you make it. You can do it now, right where you are in the privacy of your own home and I urge you to make the decision NOW before THEN when it is too late!

If your way is crumbling? Good!, if you're questioning what comes after this life? Good, you should be! or maybe you've just grown tired of not knowing for sure, what you believe or where you're going? If any of this applies to you, maybe it's the right time for you to consider believing in something that has a beginning a middle and an end? A complete belief system, written down in a neat package called the Holy Bible? It starts, like most things do, as a seed of desire for something more. It may be germinating in your heart right now? And like a seed, it grows when you water it. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is from the first chapter of the gospel of St John, a good place to start. If it speaks to you, find a Bible and keep reading!

Pick up the book and read! It has worked for countless saints down through the ages and it will work for you too!

I am well on my way to more understanding through the pages of this book. But it is much more than a book. It is a journey that I am on to a real place that started when I decided to seek after something that I didn't fully understand. To quench the desire in your heart, you must find out where it leads. I dare you to trust your heart and follow this thread to a deeper understanding of who Christ is and where He can be found. Eternity is real and Heaven is real and it is where I am bound for. I hope to see you there or meet you along the Way.

May the desires of your heart be found in the LORD who made heaven and earth!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 05:29:00 08/16/11 Tue

The Bible is not a context for growth. IT is actually the opposite, it stagnates thought and stops growth. There is nothing new in the bible, its folk tales for the uneducated masses to keep them in line, a marketing tool for the church.

There is no Heaven and there is no Hell. These are just man made things to justify some religions. Without the fear of one and lure of the other there would be no way to herd the masses.

Tim you should include a Mooo in your scrawlings occasionally. You have been trained like a domestic animal to walk between the lines so a Baaaaa or a Mooo would be fitting.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 08:23:28 08/16/11 Tue

thanks once again, my good friend, for your short and concise commentary on God's benefit package.

This is a good reminder to all of us that the benefits are only for those who will believe.

For God so loved the world that He gave...His only begotten Son that whosoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Ragu
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Date Posted: 17:11:37 08/16/11 Tue

The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the Earth and the Heavens with a swipe of its sauce covered pasta paw. He created it all just for fun. Eat Pasta and join the collective that will advance to the next level upon death. If you believe it then you are included. Only the pasta eaters will be let in to the eternal pasta heaven where time stands still and you can eat pasta non-stop.

Unbelievers will rot in an old Tupper ware container in the back of a giant eternal refrigerator. Its punishment for not eating all your pasta.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
tim
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Date Posted: 17:40:32 08/16/11 Tue

those who miss heaven will only be able to long for such a place!

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Bob
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Date Posted: 02:12:24 08/18/11 Thu

Thats all you got?

Come on look around, you are beating a broken drum. This is heaven and you are missing it.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
Real Bob
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Date Posted: 16:42:41 08/19/11 Fri

The last post is not from me.

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[> Subject: Re: God's benefit package


Author:
webchuck
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Date Posted: 07:07:38 09/05/11 Mon

I believe Eric is f-ing with you

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