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Date Posted: 20:35:15 06/17/02 Mon
Author: Doug
Subject: Re: Acts 2 - "gift of the Holy Spirit"
In reply to: Jay Dee 's message, "Re: Acts 2 - "gift of the Holy Spirit"" on 13:24:21 06/17/02 Mon

Hello Jay Dee,

Presuppositions? Please show me where I have made presuppositions according to the context of Acts 2/Joel 2? If you disagree with my exegesis, then please show me my faulty exegesis. If you are going to make assertions, then you should have evidence to support your assertions.

You said: "I still believe that the Spirit indwells us."

Jay Dee, I have stated, and agree with you, that Spirit does indeed indwell Christians. Of course, I also believe we indwell the Godhead (not literally) but I will get to that when we are finished dealing with the Acts 2/Joel 2 context. I believe He indwells representatively, only through the word. Therefore, I too believe in an indwelling. I too would call this indwelling a spiritual one as well. I maintain that all three of the Godhead indwell me and all do so in the very same manner - only through the Word. I do not believe in a literal, bodily, indwelling and I guess you don't either, since you say that the expression "the Spirit indwelling" is a figure of speech."

Of course, I also stated that I believe the gift of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling are two separate issues and are not one in the same as most brethren suppose. Again, Acts 2 and the gift of the Holy Spirit has nothing, whatsoever, to do with any indwelling. The indwelling idea is completely absent from the context.

You also said: And He "is active in helping the believer in various ways." Jay Dee, in what ways does He help and what passages are using to make that assumption? I suppose we will certainly talk about other passages dealing with the Holy Spirit in the near future, but I wanted to simply "camp out" on Acts 2/ Joel 2 for a brief while till we get that context nailed down before moving on. We will move on, but lets stick to the context under study first.

As I stated previously, the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 is something for those of the first century only. It is nothing but the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit upon those of the first century. Again, the whole context of Acts 2/Joel 2 is dealing with the miraculous. I ask, where in the entire context does Peter speak of the Spirit in a non-miraculous manner, and where does he speak of a promise of a non-miraculous indwelling and a literal, bodily indwelling that most of our brethren advocate today? As I said in my first post in this thread, we can know exactly what the gift of the Holy Spirit is simply from the context of Joel 2/Acts 2. We do not have to jump around to other texts to prove what is already proven by the context of Acts 2/Joel 2.

However, since you declare that Acts is a continuation of Luke and since we are dealing with the same writer, then I will oblige you in answering your questions that are related to Luke/Acts.

Yes indeed, the Spirit and His working power is shown not only in Luke but in the four gospels. As for the following passages you cited, however: Luke 3:16,21; Lk.4:13; Lk.4:18-19; What do these passages have to do with the Acts 2/Joel 2? What do they have to do with the gift of the Holy Spirit? As for these passages, I acknowlege that the Spirit was working and was working through our Lord. That is very evident. But notice we are dealing with the miraculous working of the Spirit and how these passages apply to you, me, or anyone is beyond me. I will await your clarification/explanation. As for Luke 12:11-12, this is a context dealing with a promise Jesus made to His disciples that the Spirit would guide THEM in what they would say. They were the ones who speak by inspiration because they were unveiling the Lord's revelation. The very words the spoke and the signs following would confirm to thier audience that they were speaking truth for God. They would not have been able to do that at that time. Here we see how the unfolding of of divine revelation was taking place. Obviously, these men didn't have a Bible nor did they have it memorized nor were many of them educated, so it would take the miraculous guidance of the Spirit to help them - at that time!

As for Luke 11:13. I know there are many that believe this passage supports their view of some sort of indwelling today but I will disagree because it simply does not :-)

If Luke 11:13 teaches that the Christian should pray for the Spirit indwelling, then Romans 8:26-27 cannot be a work of the Holy Spirit accomplished by the indwelling because one needs to pray to receive the Holy Spirit but cannot pray without the Spirit. It is contradictory to say both passages refer to the indwelling of the Spirit. But let me suggest this to you, neither passage refers to the indwelling of the Spirit.

It sees readily apparent that many of my brethren who teach a personal indwelling teach that the alien sinner (those outside of Christ) has his prayers answered by God. It is also readily apparent that most of these same brethren (mainstream churches of Christ) do not teach that a person should pray for the indwelling of the Spirit as praying for the Spirit is a denominational idea and practice.

Joel 2 is still the background for even the passages prior to Acts 2 and Pentecost. As brother Wallace used to say, they were "Pentecost pointers." With him I agree. I will end it here for now and resume answering Luke 11:13 tomorrow. I am beat. Good night. Look forward to your response.

Brotherly,
Doug

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