I'm still not sold on Lee's act of forgiveness... -- The Quorum Of Twelve

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Date Posted: 20:15:43 06/14/08 Sat
Author: anyasbuttmonkey
Subject: I'm still not sold on Lee's act of forgiveness...
In reply to: Chani 's message, "Any thoughts about Revelations ?" on 17:58:18 06/14/08 Sat

The amnesty of the Four I can understand, but forgiving the D'Anna-led Cylons for an act of genocide that frankly they haven't shown much remorse for? Only Caprica and Athena have really owned up to the genocidal mistake and paid their penance - D'Anna was still killing humans right up until she met with Lee. Laura's forgiveness of Gaius tied into his show of remorse and guilt over his unwitting actions; I know that this is the route that they were heading towards (a human/Cylon reconciliation), it just doesn't ring true to me the way it's been handled here. Unless it all goes to hell in the next episode :)

Other than that, amazing episode. The final tracking shot was breathtaking and devastating.

I said on the phone to Es, I bet Laura was seriously beginning to rethink her stance on the Final Five when she discovered Tigh and Anders were two of them. I can imagine her thinking "Seriously? A drunk and a halfwit? Come on!". Even Tyrol was like "Dude, how thick *are* you?" when Anders pondered if D'Anna would even recognise them (Aaron Douglas hasn't had much levity of late, but that look he shot Trucco was pure awesome).

Tory completed her downward spiral so hard that even she's starting to question whether she's still got any marbles left. I hope we see her slowly rebuild herself from the ground up next year, truly learning how to integrate the human she's been for the past 20-odd years with the Cylon she only found about a few months ago. Either that, or she goes truly off the deep end and murders everyone ;)

D'Anna's line about there only being four Final Fivers in the Fleet... obviously you could take it as read that one of them was already on the basestar, but then - given that Lee granted the Final Fivers an amnesty, and that D'Anna knows who they are and is bound to tell someone, why didn't they come forward?

I'm torn between thinking it's somebody we haven't met yet - mayhaps a Cylon they find on Earth - or someone that's already dead. Because what are the chances that if the Final Five have been living with the Fleet since before the attacks, all five of them somehow managed to be in the 45,000 that survived? I'm definitely leaning towards it being Carolanne Adama if that's the case.

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[> [> Re: I'm still not sold on Lee's act of forgiveness... -- Esmerelda, 20:37:53 06/14/08 Sat [1]

As I said on the phone, I'm inclined to think Lee's 'forgivness' is mainly an act of political expediencey but yeah, I'll really need to see some sort of genuine contrition on the cylon's part before I can accept a reconcilliation.

I'm not convinced though I could ever buy them living *together*, although I can imagine a scenario where they have their two societies side by side, and, I don't know, send kids on exchange progammes or something.

Oh I totally forgot to say on the phone, "you can't be a Cylon, you used to have hair!" is the best attempt at rationalizing, ever!

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[> [> [> Only an Adama could come up with logic so frakked... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:11:56 06/14/08 Sat [1]

Although this rules out Jennifer Aniston, at least ;)

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[> [> Well, he probably thought he had to -- Chani, 20:54:51 06/14/08 Sat [1]

Besides, not so long ago, Lee himself was willing to commit a genocide and would have if Helo hadn't prevented them from doing it.

Lee may have learned a thing or two about self-destruction and self-preservation...

As Gaius said, they all might just love living. Too bad they ended on a dead planet. :- )

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[> [> [> There's a big difference between what happened in Season 3... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:16:59 06/14/08 Sat [1]

... and the Cylon's original attack on the Colonies.

The plan to use infected Cylons to wipe out the rest of them was retaliation - not only for the original attack, but for New Caprica. They were at war, and without wanting to sound all "eye for an eye", they were merely fighting back with the means at their disposal.

The Cylons planned and executed an attack on the Colonies with no seeming provocation other than, as Bender from Futurama would say, "to kill all humans". They set the ball rolling with that horrific act.

Its one thing to regret and deal with the knowledge that you almost wiped out a race of beings who had proven long ago that they would want nothing more than to see you dead. Its a whole other thing to follow through with said plans and show no regret or remorse.

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[> [> [> [> But that isn't a problme of showing remorse or regret -- Chani, 23:46:09 06/14/08 Sat [1]

Without Helo, Lee and the others would have carried on their plan and I doubt they would have felt any remorse either. When the Cylons attacked the Colonies they obviously thought they had good reasons, just like season 3 Lee who thought that destroying them all was the best solution to be safe. The Cylons thought that mankind didn't deserve to live.

Now they have obviously changed their mind but they are scared and think that they have to kill in order to not be killed.

Lee didn't make peace because Cylons would deserve to be forgiven. He isn't being magnanimous. I am not a fan of Lee but he obviously understood that shaking hands might be a better choice than a never ending war, than retaliation, hence his "it doesn't have to happen again". Sometimes attacking isn't the best defence.

It is a pragmatic choice, but also perhaps, on some level, he finally gets that the humanity must end the war to survive because trying to destroy the Cylons is like self-destruction (as Helo hinted in season 3 when he said it would be a "crime against humanity"), especially now that four familiar and even close people turned out to be Cylons...

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[> [> [> [> [> Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wasn't the right choice... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 00:33:48 06/15/08 Sun [1]

Certainly ending the cycle of never-ending "potshots" between Cylon and Human can only benefit... I just damn well hope that either a) D'Anna and her cohorts start showing some remorse and try to make serious amends; or b) it all goes to hell in the next few episodes *because* the Cylons still won't accept that what they did was wrong. They've made noises about recognising the mistake, but they've made no move to qualify those with any actions pointing towards making amends - they've basically just gone "oops! My bad" and tried to brush it all under the rug and start over. The only ones who've tried to show the humans they are truly sorry are Caprica and Athena, and I just don't buy the rest of the Fleet being happy with an armistice just because the President's forgiven them. I know I wouldn't be.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> They shared the same goal -- Chani, 10:40:00 06/15/08 Sun [1]

now they have to face the same distress...I wonder where they'll go from there!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Its going to be jaw-droppingly interesting, to say the least... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:22:19 06/15/08 Sun [1]

And what's going to happen with the 1s, 4s and 5s?! I doubt they're going to stay out of it for long!

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[> [> [> [> Re: There's a big difference between what happened in Season 3... -- Esmerelda, 00:21:48 06/15/08 Sun [1]

I'm inclined to agree with ABM, but for slightly different reasons. What the humans (led by Lee and Roslin) were proposing was an attack that would have crippled the enemy that was chasing them through space hell bent on destroying them. Not an attack on people who might, one day, possibly, come back to pick a fight with them.

It was also an atack on a legitamate military target, the basestars and resurrection hubs. As far as we know, there is no such thing as civilian Cylons. There all part of the Cylon military machine. Military, IMO, is a fair target.

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[> [> [> [> [> I remember that discussion we had in Italy... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 00:47:54 06/15/08 Sun [1]

About whether or not bombing coffee shops on Caprica was the right move on Anders' part - the topic of "civilian Cylons" came up there too!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I remember that discussion we had in Italy... -- Esmerelda, 00:53:07 06/15/08 Sun [1]

The problem I had with that was the iconography of it, the bombing of *coffee shops*, which is a civillian space, even if there weren't any civillians in it at the time. It of course ended up forshadowing what happens on New Caprica, where Tigh wantes to use suicide bombers in the market, which would have inevitably killed civillians.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Even Anders (poor, sweet, dumb-as-a-bunch-of-really-stupid-rocks Anders) knew that was wrong... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 00:58:44 06/15/08 Sun [1]

But I (and Seema!) already expressed my willingness to do what Anders and his people did on Caprica :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> It would have been interesting to see though -- Esmerelda, 01:13:50 06/15/08 Sun [1]

If Anders and Cheif would have continued to refuse, or if they'd have eventually done it. I've also always wondered what would have happened to Doc Cottle? Who was patching cylons up. Would he have been shot as a collaborator eventually? I'd almost like to have seen them going after Cottle, just for the verbal smackdown that made them shuffle away in shame.

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[> [> About the Fifth -- Chani *going all SherlockHolmes-y*, 21:49:59 06/14/08 Sat [1]

I don't think it's someone that's already dead like Billy or Lee's mother. D'Anna was still talking about Final Five when Cavil boxed her up and later when he brought her back in "The Hub" so there must be a Fifth.

Besides she knew the Fifth couldn't be found in the fleet which means she knew he/she was somewhere else. How could she know where the Fifth was not?

The obvious answer would be, because the Fifth was on the basestar, except that D'Anna would have already made contact with her/him if only when Tory joined them.

And there's no way she could have known it's a Cylon living on Earth for instance. She saw them in a vision, so she's able to recognize them, she knows their names but she can't locate them and tell where they are or not, she has no special powers ERGO the Fifth has to be someone whom she knew, someone who couldn't be on the fleet because when she was unboxed D'Anna knew he/she wasn't.

Boomer is the perfect candidate, because D'Anna knew she left the Hub before it was destroyed and knew she wasn't with the rebels. Boomer isn't on the basestar and she isn't in the human fleet either.

Just re-watch the scene in "The Hub" as D'Anna awakes! I've just rewatched it and the way D'Anna looks at Boomer is really weird. Besides suddenly the music rises(and it sounds like the Final Four theme, the music we always hear aorund them) as D'Anna said "Boomer is an Eight, shouldn't she be on the other side?" and D'Anna smiles then...

It must be Boomer! It would be such a twist because the final revelation would be a non-event for the sleeping Final Cylon has been known and switched on since season 1. She was there right under our nose like Poe's letter.

Athena isn't the special Eight, the blessed one, it's Boomer.

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[> [> [> I'm still not convinced... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:22:19 06/14/08 Sat [1]

It would definitely be an awesome way to take the story, but - and I've said the same thing on TWoP's BSG forum - Joe Public is not going to follow and/or accept that.

They stated way back when in the miniseries that there are twelve Cylon models. It's possible, however remotely, that there are "twins" of one model. But that would be an asshat of a retcon, and one that would take a lot of explanation onscreen to make it stick. Remember, whatever explanations they choose to give (I doubt they'll explain everything to the finest detail) have to be understood and accepted by all. Joe Public will go mental if they turn around and retcon one of the fundamental facts of the show (that there are 12 distinct Cylon models). They've built this up since the start of season 3 - the mission statement of this season is to reveal the Final Fiver - so they have to pay it off in a way that not only satisfies the story they've been telling, but satisfies audience expectation too. As great as the more off-the-wall theories are, much like in the heydey of Buffy we're getting too clever for our own good ;)

Also, just to nitpick... Just because D'Anna was talking about the Final Five to Cavil, doesn't preclude one of them being dead. I'm sure for interest's sake everyone (well, the Sixes, Eights and Twos anyway) would want to know who it was regardless :)

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[> [> [> [> Methinks you're arguing like Bill Adama here -- Chani, 23:57:20 06/14/08 Sat [1]

I mean, when he said that he hadn't known Saul for decades and that he had hair then! Your Joe Public already had to accept that the Final Four were different, could age, could procreate, and were unique...

The 12 models were a fundamental fact but until last season we also thought that there were numerous incarnations for each model. The Four apparently broke that rule.

So I'll answer like Tigh. The fact that all the models have different physical features doesn't mean that the Fifth can't look like the Eights and can't be connected to them.

Also, just to nitpick... Just because D'Anna was talking about the Final Five to Cavil, doesn't preclude one of them being dead. I'm sure for interest's sake everyone (well, the Sixes, Eights and Twos anyway) would want to know who it was regardless :)

But don't you think that your Joe Public would go mad if there is no Final Fiver eventually because it turned out to be dead for while? ;- )

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[> [> [> [> [> Not unless it was Carolanne Adama... Yes, this theory is my own personal dead horse... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 00:40:33 06/15/08 Sun [1]

Because if it were her, and she's dead, that still has a huge effect on the show - Lee's a Hybrid :)

The Four apparently broke that rule.

We don't know that they started off with only one copy. It stands to reason that whatever happened to split the Five from the Seven, after the split either the Five themselves destroyed all their copies, or the Seven did. Either way, we can't say for sure that at one time, there weren't infinte copies of the Final Five :P

The fact that all the models have different physical features doesn't mean that the Fifth can't look like the Eights and can't be connected to them.

I still don't buy Boomer. She was the first Eight we met, and as such she's served as a basic "How Not To Be An Eight" guide. She's the counter to Athena, as well. To turn around and say "she's not an Eight after all", I think, would cheapen everything that's happened with her.

Mainly, though, I just love The Tragedy Of Boomer(TM) storyline. Everything she wanted, Athena's gotten - and when she strives for something different (DEMAND LOVE; voting against her line) it always ends up in the crapper (concentration camps; destruction of The Hub and therefore destroying Cylon immortality).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> But her storyline isn't finished yet -- Chani *don't you ever sleep?*, 10:47:34 06/15/08 Sun [1]

they made her escape...there must be a reason!

Seriously rewatch The Hub scene, don't tell me there isn't something weird! The echos of Dylan's music are never played around D'Anna unless Boomer is there.

Hybrids abound now (Hera, Nicky, Caprica's future baby)...Lee being one wouldn't be that big a deal, eevn for his father. And seriously I don't think that the audience would be satisfied with a Fifth that is no more and has never been a main character. It has to be someone we're familiar with.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh, I know it's a longshot :) -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:24:37 06/15/08 Sun [1]

I just figure it would be interesting for Lee and Bill specifically - and it fits with Kara's penchant for Cylon men ;)

I'm fairly certain it's going to be a major character. I'm just not sure that this is going to be the storyline where they take it to such a cerebral place (not when you've got all the Dying Leader and the All This Has Happened Before nonsense going on... I feel like the Final Cylon storyline has to be, in explanation terms, fairly straightforward to counterbalance all the rest).

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[> [> [> [> This member of Joe Public demands that the final cylon -- Esmerelda, 00:27:28 06/15/08 Sun [1]

is both alive and not Boomer, or Caprica's baby. Or Anders long lost twin. Unless he was the smart snarky twin that would Anders, casue that'd be fun!

Tonight, at least, I think it's Roslin. Technically she wasn't in the fleet at the time and is a big enough character to be jaw dropping for most of the audience.

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[> [> [> [> [> Oh and -- Esmerelda, 00:28:22 06/15/08 Sun [1]

Maybe the chamalla stoped her activating? Messed with the signal or something.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I thought that too at the time... -- anyasbuttmonkey, 00:45:54 06/15/08 Sun [1]

Too coincidental that just as the Fleet jump to the Nebula, and everyone's power goes off, Madame President gets a "headache" - and when the power comes back on, it's like the Four have been rebooted and they finally remember what they are.

It might not even be the chamalla - the cancer itself could actually be her biomechanics degrading. Hera's Hybrid blood gave her body a salve with which to rejuvenate itself (stem cells), but that didn't last forever - and now she's "breaking down" again.

Then again, if that were the case then surely Cottle would've noticed his deloxin (or whatever it's called) treatment not working.

Still, Roslin is a good choice by anyone's standards - although it raises the question, if D'Anna cracked that joke and realised Roslin didn't know about being a Cylon, why would she assume the Dylan Four knew?

I've now decided the Final Cylon is Baltar, I managed to talk myself into it over on the TWoP forum... I'll just repost what I wrote there because its late and I can't think so hard anymore...!

Baltar's ultimate act of redemption could be him finally accepting his guilt and his part in all the various genocides along the way (and not trying to weasel out of them with technicalities and religious piousness) - and once he's come to terms with ALL of that... he finds out he's the final Cylon. The reason he wouldn't have been switched on with the others could be because he wanted to be a Cylon, but only because that meant (in his words) he'd stop being a traitor to one people and start being a hero to another. Before, it was self-interest; if he comes to terms with his actions and the necessary remorse, then finding out he's a Cylon is less about self-aggrandisation and more just about finding out who he is :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I thought that too at the time... -- Esmerelda, 00:57:31 06/15/08 Sun [1]

I still think it takes far too much away from Baltar's arc to have him actually be a Cylon, it absolves him. Of course he could find out and then say 'you know what, I still did a really awful thing', but I think he's too much of a narcisist to come to that conclusions.

Was it you or Seema I was talking too when I said I suspect that Lee's words to Baltar, "I don't do these things for you" are going to be reversed and Baltar's going to say them to Lee before saving the universe?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not me, that's for sure...! -- anyasbuttmonkey, 01:01:48 06/15/08 Sun [1]

Although I definitely think that sounds like something Ron would do :)

I still think it takes far too much away from Baltar's arc to have him actually be a Cylon, it absolves him.

That's kind-of my point: he can only find out he's a Cylon *after* absolution becomes a moot point - in my theory, he stops seeking absolution and faces his actions head-on, accepting the blame and the guilt and whatnot and finding a way to work through it without using "God Loves Me" as an easy out. Only after that does he discover his true nature, because by that point it isn't about his self-interest or self-preservation at all.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> and in my head -- Esmerelda, 01:15:24 06/15/08 Sun [1]

they totally make out after Baltar says it!

*cough* where was I? Oh yeah. Baltar as cylon...I just, dislike the idea. I can see how they could justify it, but I still think it's a bit of a cop out.

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[> [> [> [> [> Nooooooo! -- Chani, 11:09:06 06/15/08 Sun [1]

Please not Roslin and not Baltar either! I'll hate that, it would ruin their storylines. They have to remain human beings. Besides it would be somehow redundant. For Baltar it would be a repetition of Tyrol's storyline (he believed he might be a cylon, he was told he was not...he ended up being a Final Fiver!), for Roslin it would be a repetition of Tigh's (the Cylon hater, loved by Papa Adama). I like echoes but I can't help thinking they need something different and refreshing for the Fifth.

For a long time I wanted Zarec, but perhaps he isn't big enough.

I want to believe that D'Anna's lines were a clue and a red herring at once. After she said (the supposed joke and the fact only Four were in the fleet at that moment) everybody is going to suspect Roslin. I think the writers are just playing with a rumour/theory that has been running in the fandom for a while now.

Besides I want to believe that Ron Moore didn't lie when he said that the Fifth was not on the picture of The Last Supper but just cheated a little! Technically Boomer wasn't on the picture, it was Athena...

One last thing. I can't think of only one logical reason to explain that the Fifth doesn't know what he/she is and hasn't been activated at the same time as the Four : the Fifth was already switched on when it happened.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> I was sober but I made lots of typos -- Chani, 17:38:46 06/15/08 Sun [1]

It should read "I CAN think of only one reason" of course...

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> You aren't the only one who thinks that :) -- anyasbuttmonkey, 23:28:34 06/15/08 Sun [1]

I tend to agree that the writers, through D'Anna, were just being mischievous with the whole "there are Four in your Fleet" line. And that I do think that aside from Laura's cancer and/or chamalla treatments, there's no way to get around why the Fifth hasn't been activated without acknowledging that they've known from the outset - and none of the major characters could even be thought of in that regard.

I think if they're going to make anyone the Final, it'll be Baltar - I may not love it (I too think that his fallibility lies in his humanity - although maybe that's the point, that he can be a Cylon and still be so frakked up inside) but it's explainable (he was under so much stress in the trial, it could be wanked). Same goes for Roslin :(

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> On LJ someone reminded me -- Chani *stubborn*, 20:16:17 06/16/08 Mon [1]

that The Hybrid talked about "the one still hidden striving for redemption"...Roslin doesn't fit in that description at all.

Baltar maybe but as I said above revealing he's a Cylon would be a repetition of Tyrol's storyline...Caprica fits the Hybrid's line more than anyone else but being in the fleet ruled her out, didn't it?

Boomer shot Adama and keeps betraying her kin over and over, but I think she desperatly wants redemption.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> The "humans" on the basestar -- Ricco, 21:26:00 06/23/08 Mon [1]

The only ones who might be the final model that were on the Basestar are Baltar and Roslin, why you ask? They were the only ones not rounded up when Dianna was going to execute all the hostages.

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