Re: I agree -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 04:17:39 11/10/07 Sat
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: Re: I agree
In reply to: Joan 's message, "Re: I agree" on 20:05:08 11/04/07 Sun

"Thirdly, you speak of 'free will' Joan. I have a 100 questions for that but will settle for a couple. First of all, what choice does a baby have to be baptized and what is the sig'nce of that? Where is free will there? It seems mostly ceremonial to me, albeit a wonderful symbolic gesture."

Well, since you say that you were a Catholic once, and that you still appreciate that education, I won't treat you like you're stupid, since you already know the answer to those questions. "Symbolic gesture" indeed. lol

"And if God is all-knowing and omni-present how can he not know who will be 'saved' and who will be headed in the other direction? If you don't have a direct answer for that, I will understand, given that Christendom has been debated that for over 500 yrs now. "

Of course he knows, because he exists outside of what we call "time". That should never mean to anyone that their future is predetermined. Free will determines what will become of us. We may be dirty rotten scoundrels for most of our lives, but turn to God in later life. Or, we may be pretty good people for years, only to turn away from God forever.

You may know someone's life story--Abe Lincoln's, for example. But does that mean his "story" was predetermined, that his free will to act had nothing to do with the outcome of his life? Hardly. God knows how things will be, simply because he exists outside of our "time" constraints. He is the uncaused cause. He always was and alwas will be. God simply is.

How does that mean that we have no free will, or that our free will has nothing to do with possibility?

Are you saying that someone's free will has nothing to do with anything? That the free will to say yes to God is meaningless? What then of the idea that God invites us to come to him, but doesn't demand it?

And would a loving God choose to damn some people just, apparently, for the fun of it? If free will were meaningless, then why would God not choose, to predetermine, that all of his creation be "saved"?

The only logical answer is free will. God invites us to follow him, but he doesn't force us. He doesn't predetermine who will be saved. He knows, because he exists outside of our "time", but he surely doesn't damn some and save others, as if he were a cruel chessmaster playing with his pieces for sport.

If we believe that God wants all of us to be united with Him in Heaven forever, then he could never predetermine that some of us could never say "yes" to his invitation. In that case, He would not truly want all of us to be "saved".

Still, though God knows the outcome, we can't know that, unless we say that we can tell fortunes about the future. That, I'm pretty sure, is probably not a Christians doctine in any denomination. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> This should be under Phil's response. -- Joan, 02:24:40 11/11/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

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