Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Catholic Friends Forum

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Catie, 08:28:12 11/20/07 Tue [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Joan, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an unquenchable fire according to Genesis. Where is that fire today? Does it still burn? THere are other examples of unquencable fire in scripture. Those fires are now burned out-are ashes The word "unquenchable" (at lease in the context of Hebrew bible) Means it can't be quenched, but must burn until it burns out and becomes ashes.

Death and "hell" and fire are separate things. Hell absolutely is separation from God. But the connection comes from the scriptures in Revelation (which means Reveal)- John said in Revelations in the "end of time" he saw death and hell cast into a "Lake" of fire. What he saw was purification of the earth and the evil being consumed. If earth is going to be the new Jerusalem, we know God can not live where sin is. The earth must be purified. It is purified by fire. To explain what John saw we must consider if we saw everything burning as far as the eye could see on this earth, it certainly would appear as a "lake of fire". It is an all consuming fire. The scriptures, new and old, speak of the new heaven being here on earth, that God places Satan's ashes under the feet of the redeemed in the new Jerusalem.

Purgatory. Where does that come from?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Joan, 05:53:07 11/21/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Purgatory. Where does that come from?"

The Bible. But it's in the sections that Protestants don't use.

I think we agree on Hell. It's a difference in how we use words that makes it seem like we're saying two different things.

The "unquenchable" means forever. Once someone is damned to Hell at his particular judgement, the judgement at his own death, he is seperated from God forever. This non-literal "fire" can never cleanse his soul as the non-literal "fire" cleanses the souls of those undergoing purification for unconfessed/unforgiven menial sins.

I think we agree. Do you believe that someone who is damned to Hell at death will someday see God? Maybe we don't agree. The seperation from God is for eternity, I believe.

We don't beleive in a literal Hell as a place with fire, or as a place at all. It is a state of seperation from God. If that state (Hell) doesn't exist anymore, what happens to the souls that are in that state? Are they released to Heaven--a state of eternity with God?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> From the CCC -- Joan, 05:59:16 11/21/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Maybe I'm making the waters more muddy here. :-)

Here is a short blurb from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Maybe it's more clear that what I've been writing.

"To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 12, SubSection 4

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. "

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Joan -- Catie, 09:52:32 11/21/07 Wed [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Yes we agree in that hell is eternal separation from God. Beyond that I think we differ.

As a protestant and Christian I believe to die without unconfessed sin is eternal separation from God. There is no second chance or another state of waiting to be absolved of sin or forgiven, regardless of the sin. I believe everyone who lives and breaths is not only offered a choice to accept God but God the father in his divine love and mercy actually "pleads" with mankind to accept him. He goes out of his way to make us see his love and mercy while we are still able to choose. The scripture teaches he wants no one to "perish" but to have everlasting life. But he will never take away our choice. If he did, he would have to go back on his word and since he is holy, can not lie, he will not force anyone to accept him. So if one refuses the one true God, by their own choice, and die in sin, they are not given another chance to accept him. They will "perish" because they chose not to accept him. He did all he could to get their attention while they were living. It broke his heart when even Lucifier, a beautiful angel, created by God himself, caused a great war in heaven. How much more does he love us created in his own image. Regarding Satan/Lucifer He said to him "You were perfect in all of your ways UNTIL iniquity was found in you". NOW THIS IS WHAT I THINK FOLKS MISS THE POINT OF GOD'S LOVE:

When Lucifier (means light) caused division in heaven, God could have destroyed him even then. But he is a GOd of love and wanted even the angels to have a choice to either choose him or Lucifer. He wants folks to willingly love him. He forces himself on no one. All of the angels were watching. If God had killed Lucifer then the other angels could have said "Oh good grief, we must serve him or he will destroy us too". But he allowed Lucifer (now Satan) to use his lies and convince 1/3 of the angels to take his side. He then cast Satan from heaven because Sin and Holiness can absolutely not reside together. The rest of the angels observed the mercy of God when he didn't destroy Satan. They serve him willingly. God shows that same mercy to us. We have a choice.

Now in Revelations the fire John saw was an all consuming fire - from all of the sin in the world. That included Satan, his angels and all who refused God. It is unquenceable but it burns out. Then when God brings Heaven to this earth, purified by fire, then sin will no longer exist in the universe. He Told Satan (in the old testament) and spoke to him in the past tense "I have made you ashes under the feet of the saints". So the answer, all sin is consumed by a literal purified fire and becomes nothing but ashes.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Joan -- Joan, 14:31:25 11/21/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"So the answer, all sin is consumed by a literal purified fire and becomes nothing but ashes."

So what happens to the souls who died with unconfessed sin? If they suffer eternal seperation, but their sin is purified eventually, do they then see God? That doesn't make sense to me.

"As a protestant and Christian I believe to die without unconfessed sin is eternal separation from God. There is no second chance or another state of waiting to be absolved of sin or forgiven, regardless of the sin."

But what if you're walking down the street and you have a very unkind thought about another human being. Maybe the person is deformed or annoying. Maybe it's a drug addict who is asking you for money for "food", when you know it's for booze, and you think "This guy isn't worth my time." Then a car jumps the curb and kills you. You died w/ that unconfessed sin. Do you go to Hell or Heaven, or is there another state where a soul can be purified before entering Heaven (since nothing impure can enter Heaven.)?

This is why we pray for the dead. The souls in Heaven are beyond hope. They are eternally seperated from God. The souls in Heaven don't need our prayers. It's the souls undergoing purification who need our prayers. This is why the Bible talks about praying for the dead.

I don't think God intends for us to go to Hell for "small" sins like unkind thoughts about people or for things like a teenager's disrespectin his father just before being hit by the car that jumps the curb. But, if we believe that everyone with any unconfessed sin goes to Hell, what else is there to believe but that many good people are in Hell for a thought or deed done just before they died and before they had the time to confess that sin. Yikes!

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Joan -- Catie, 19:10:52 11/21/07 Wed [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

I don't think a creator of the universe, a God who loves mankind, who gave up his son, which was actual diety, to stand in our place as a sacrifice for OUR sin, is eagerly awaiting to find fault and "destroy" man. I don't think we are to live in fear that we might sin, for even a second, without a chance to confess, then face God to be judged. But that doesn't answer the question nor excuse the sin. Here, according to scripture, is what I think about a situation as you described:

Christ said when he must leave he would send the Holy Spirit in his place. He said when he comes he will lead us into ALL truth. What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit? First he is our comforter. He NEVER condemns. Only Satan is the one who condemns. Thqat does not mean that God tolerates sin, but I'm speaking of feeling guilty all the time about something I might have done or be tempted to do. The Holy Spirit, "nudges" us when we stray from the "straight and narrow". The bible says this about sin: If a person knows to do good and does not do it, then it is to him a sin. So If a person has a sinful thought (which is sent to us by Satan), is in opposition of God's word, and does not refuse that thought or "cast it down" as the bible says, it is a sin. BUt if we cast away a fleeting thought, refuse to allow it to take hold in our mind, we have not sinned but we were tested, or tempted. We have a choice to accept that thought, or deed. We can dwell on a sinful thought or cast it aside. I believe ANYTIME we have a sinful thought, immediately the Holy Spirit will reveal to us it that sin. Immediately it becomes our own choice to dwell, allow it to take root, or to cast it aside. I truly do not believe anyone has ever faced death without first knowing whether or not they had sin in their life. There might have been those who died with sin, but at sometime refused to be forgiven and chose to dwell in sin. But I think that person was given a chance at one time to know God and be forgiven. God goes out of his way to reveal sin because his main goal is to save mankind, not destroy him. If he will reveal it, then he surely will give an opportunity to all to be forgiven. We can choose to listen to the HOly spirit or to accept the sin. It is always our choice. But that does not mean we live in fear of God eager to zap us out of here.