Re: The problem with that argument Neysa... -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 12:24:32 08/08/07 Wed
Author: Phil
Author Host/IP: 71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net / 71.223.15.110
Subject: Re: The problem with that argument Neysa...
In reply to: Neysa 's message, "Catholics also have the pope!" on 10:46:46 08/08/07 Wed

...is that almost nobody accepts that, incl Catholics. A recent survey indicated that only abt 20% of Catholics accept the concept of Papal Infallibility. When I was growing up, there was talk of creating an American Catholic Church, with only very loose ties to Rome. That made a lot of sense to me, even as a boy.

History has also shown a multitude of flaws in that infalibility assertion, the most obvious example being the Borja Popes. They used the Papacy to advance their own family fortunes with lil' concern for spirtitual matters. The idea that whatever they stated, spiritual or otherwise, was infallible is to me, weak at best. There are plenty other historical examples that I could cite, but that would not pro'bly not sit well here.

Finally, some of what the Church could be categorized as reform. While it was often done to root out corruption in the Middle Ages, it was also done for PRACTICAL good. Yet, these policies lacked any Biblical foundation. I cannot accept that its the result of some kind of Holy decision.

Thus, the concept of Papal Infallibility is surely 1 of the weakest claims that Catholics make. I've watched priests cringe as they defend that concept. I wonder how many of them accept this concept. Most defend it half-heartedly and try to move on to another topic. And most Catholics don't even believe it, Neysa.

So to compare the Pope with Biblical teachings is a bit of a stretch if you ask me. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I feel very strongly abt this, and have historical and Biblical support to make my claim.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> Phil ............................. -- Neysa, 12:29:18 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inika8.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.72)

I stated it because even though most Catholics like myself, don't believe it. It is still a teaching of the Catholic Church.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Oops, sorry Dear...I must've missed that!!!. -- Phil from AZ, 12:34:32 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

I try to read posts thoroughly so I don't overdo it. Unfort'ly, this is 1 of those exceptions. Indeed, what you contend is true: SOME Catholics believe in Papal Infallibility, and accept it as a source for teaching.

Sorry. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from humble AZ

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[> [> [> [> I hit "SEND" too soon............. -- Neysa, 12:36:54 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inika8.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.72)

I was just stating that he Catholic Church believe's in two source's of authority. Even if the 2nd is a weak argument.

1) Bible

2) Pope......even though I and most Catholics do not believe in papal infallibility. It is still a teaching of the Catholic Church.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Fair enough Neysa....sorry I misunderstood -- Phil, 12:49:31 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

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[> [> [> I'm not sure that you understand what Papal Infallibility actually is. -- Joan, 13:05:18 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

That all popes weren't good, and that all popes aren't all good has nothing to do w/ papal infallibility. No one is denying that they are human or that they don't make mistakes and commit sins.

What is your take on papal infallibility? How do you define it--even if you don't believe in it?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> Wait. That's not what I meant to say. -- Joan, 13:15:28 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

To clarify-

"No one is denying that they are human or that they don't make mistakes and commit sins."

No one is denying that they are human. They aren't saying that they don't make mistakes and commit sins.

OK, that's better. :-)

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[> [> [> Re: The problem with that argument Neysa... -- Joan, 13:12:21 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Finally, some of what the Church could be categorized as reform. While it was often done to root out corruption in the Middle Ages, it was also done for PRACTICAL good. Yet, these policies lacked any Biblical foundation. I cannot accept that its the result of some kind of Holy decision."

Can you give a specific example?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> Re: That's a piece of cake, Joan... -- Phil from AZ, 14:53:51 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

Just give me a couple days to put together my argument. You may be surprised. While I entered college as a Pre-Law major, my first love was Euro Medieval History. I also studied in London for the better part of a yr, and got first-hand background on a lot of this stuff. Plz be patient, tho, as I must get back to my wrtg. I get mad at myself when I dont get my 'quota' done for the day.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> Phil.....My husband and I are heading back to London........ -- Barb, 15:50:51 08/08/07 Wed [1] (clgrtnt7-port-29.dial.telus.net/161.184.52.29)

at the end of September, for the first time in 14 long years! What are some of your favourite landmarks there?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I wouldnt stay in London at all. LoL -- Phil from AZ, 17:31:56 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

London is not what it was when I studied there a while back. I'd actually recommend that you stay in a small town near a train stn and go into the City when you please. Maybe somewhere along the south coast...like Hastings or Battle. But I understd if you alrdy have reservations.

I do recommend the sites that I called 'the run' in my story entitled Native American in London: West'ster Abbey/Big Ben, Buck'ham Palace and the Tower. As the yrs went on, tho, I've enjoyed returning Mdm T's the most. They change the exhibits often. Of cse, there's the Brit Museum. I like the sections on Egyptology there. Dickens House on Doughty Street is a site I recommend for visitors who've been there b4 and are looking for something new. I'm a an admirer of Chas Dickens and I love going there.

Some lesser known sites include the musuem in Battle, where the Battle of Hastings was really fought. Warwick Castle is also a favorite of mine. My absolute favorite is Stratford-upon-Avon. Its a wonderful lil' town where you may be able to get tickets to see an actual Shakespearean play. Great stuff!

I also love Salibury, site of the famous cathedral. They have a site called Sarum there on the outskirts of town, an old castle. But you can also get to Stonehenge and/or Avebury from there. Finally, there's the univ towns of Oxford and Cambridge. I'm not much for beer anymore, but Oxfd has a tradition of what we'd call home brews, beers that are brewed locally. Check it out, even if you don't indulge much.

Just a reminder: practically all of these places have their own websites in this day and age. Well, that should do it for now. More details as requested. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Phil, this is our 7th trip to London, dear! .................... -- Barb, 08:21:08 08/09/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt7-port-76.dial.telus.net/161.184.52.76)

Married there in 1970. Ian's family is in southern Scotland. We've been to every place you mentioned and alot more...you can well imagine! Nothing but nothing will stop us from staying in London, in South Kensington. Great place to walk from...Knightsbridge and all that. Underground very accessible. London's our favourite city on the planet. We've travelled from northern most Scotland to Lands End and many places inbetween. This time we'll concentrate mainly on Scotland, the Lake District, (another favourite)London and off East Cowes to Osborne House on the Isle of Wight where Queen Victoria and family lived some of the time. I've always been a huge fan of hers and have yet to see that one residence. We've been through Buckingham Palace and Balmoral though.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sounds like y'got a handle on it, then.... -- Phil from AZ, 08:40:35 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

I also focus on Scotland these days. I like Chester too, which gives me ez access to Northern Wales.

Phil

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I like Chester too. Lost Ian on the wall one time! lol :-# -- Barb, 09:29:57 08/09/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt9-port-110.dial.telus.net/161.184.54.110)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:Hmm, I'm wondering if... -- Phil from AZ, 13:00:28 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

...it happened by accident or you ditched him to have a look in those lil' shops we all love in Chester? LoL, I was just kiddin' Barb.

It really is a wonderful exp'ce walking on the wall. I did it late early in the eve, right b4 sunset, trying to imagine what it must've been like back in the day. It was great! Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Those little Chester shops...... -- Barb, 13:28:24 08/09/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt3-port-41.dial.telus.net/161.184.44.41)

are great but we had Burger King hamburgers in Chester which were repulsive! Terrible meat, and fat rolling over the sides like a waterfall. An American chain...British style...enough said!
I found Ian through my camera lens, walking away from me. Nice photo of the wall though. lol

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm afraid I have to agree on a couple counts... -- Phil, 14:05:05 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

Actually, Burger King was owned by a PLC based in the UK, but now is its own company, I think. I considered investing in BK once, but was chased off because it was owned by that convoluted multi-nat'l I had never heard of b4.

Instd, I ended up investing in McD's, Bob Evans and YUM brands: a neat combo of Taco Bell, KFC and Pizza Hut. Formerly, the latter were part of Pepsi, but spun off. I still sold all of the above (except Pepsi) during the recent mkt upturn.

Back to the topic...I try to avoid 'burger joints' abroad. The quality of beef is very poor by our stds: its bland and stringy. When I lived in Ireland, I ordered the chicken, tortellini or something like that...almost never the beef.

When I lived in Korea, my girl friend liked to go to BK. Even the fries and ketsup tasted funny there! I prefered the tradional food there, while she said that she was tired of the native dishes...and wanted to eat in American style restaurants. Ironic?

In Paris you can get wine in McD's and beer in Germany. At least you cant complain about what they serve w/ it. LoL. Fort'ly, tho, you dont hear the locals saying.

"Hey man, let's go get drunk...at McDs!" LoL

I am in agreement with you on beef. Its mediocre abroad and I dont usually order it. The 1 excptn is Denmk. They have great beef there! Oh, and dont order hot dogs in Europe either. They're nasty! Yuck! LoL

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from beefy AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:Further analysis reveals.... -- Phil from AZ, 14:12:48 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

Burger King is its own company now and trades under the symbol BKC. Its abt $24 a share. Not that I'm recommending that any1 buy it. LoL

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Phil, Faith Based Funds........ -- Neysa, 15:59:48 08/09/07 Thu [1] (user-2inikc0.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.128)

What is your opinion about Faith Based Funds ? You seem to know a lot about stocks. The ones you mentioned are all individual stocks. I am asking about mutual funds.

I know that there is a Catholic fund called, Ave Maria Funds.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My opinion is... -- Phil from AZ, 16:44:39 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

...that they are strong on faith and poor in performance. I found only 1 glowing review for Ave Maria Fund. Every1 else rates it as an avg fund in the category. Given that Faith Based Funds are generally laggards to the mkt, that is not very encouraging.

I discvrd something striking abt the stock mkt some yrs ago. Did you know that there are more mutual funds (MFs) than stocks that trade on the mkt? Given today's liquidity, when you limit yourself to a narrow strategy its kind of like the dealer taking all the aces and face cards out of deck when he deals your poker hand. Your chances of doing well are very poor, right?

In fact, I recommend a fund that offers as many oppor'ties as possible. That increases your chances for success over the long-term. In time, as your knowledge of the mkt icnreases, you may wish to get into technology, health care or defense/aerospace fund(s)...depending on the mkt and your knowledge of the category. E.g.I bought an aerospace/defense fund after 9/11...and it has soared!

Keep in mind, that this is just an opinion, albeit, I believe an informed one. Hope I answered your question Neysa. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from arid AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Phil ! -- Neysa, 18:11:54 08/09/07 Thu [1] (user-38lci8m.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.22)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're welcome Neysa! -- Phil, 23:04:20 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

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[> [> [> [> Example....... -- Neysa, 15:11:54 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inik17.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.39)

papal infallibility would be Pope Pius IX definition of the Assumption of Mary. As Catholics we must accept Pius IX, teaching on the subject as absolute truth...without error.

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[> [> [> [> Re: The problem with that argument Neysa... -- Joan, 05:22:46 08/09/07 Thu [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

""Finally, some of what the Church could be categorized as reform. While it was often done to root out corruption in the Middle Ages, it was also done for PRACTICAL good. Yet, these policies lacked any Biblical foundation. I cannot accept that its the result of some kind of Holy decision."

Can you give a specific example? "

"papal infallibility would be Pope Pius IX definition of the Assumption of Mary. As Catholics we must accept Pius IX, teaching on the subject as absolute truth...without error."

Right, but how is the Assumption anti-biblical?

Joan

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