Re: More on Mary -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 09:09:38 08/05/07 Sun
Author: Lynn
Author Host/IP: ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net / 72.193.232.42
Subject: Re: More on Mary
In reply to: Joan 's message, "More on Mary" on 08:50:00 08/05/07 Sun

I don't think your being a pest Joan. I have always wondered how God and Jesus could be one in the same entity. When Jesus was dying on the cross, he was crying out unto the Father. When Jesus was being baptized by John the Baptist, God the Father said " This is my beloved SON, in whom i'm well pleased ". If Jesus and God were one in the same, why these references that show that they are indeed seperate?

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[> [> Re: More on Mary -- Joan, 15:17:15 08/05/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"He was God incarnate"

Yes, that's the point. He was God incarnate. God and human. Not one or the other. Mary couldn't have given birth to one or the other if Jesus was both. She had to give birth to both. Jesus has 2 natures (human and divine) in one person. To say that Mary gave birth to only His human nature, means that you divide Jesus into 2 persons. That's the old heresy, Nestorianism. Why does Jesus have to be divided into 2 persons to be born of Mary. Why can't Jesus, true man and true God, be born of Mary if God said it would be so? Why put limits on what God can do, especially if it's stated clearly in the Bible? (Elizabeth's words).

Yes, Mary was a servant of God. He chose her, but he didn't force her. She accepted what was happening to her of her own free will. Servant, I think, shouldn't be interpreted as forced laborer, as if against the person's will.

"Catholics will say they don't pray to Mary, but if you are saying, "Hail Mary full of Grace, ...Pray for us now.." Then you are asking for her intervention. Christ said he ascended unto the right hand of God where HE makes intercession for us."

But you don't see us worship Mary. We ask Mary to pray for us, just as we ask each other to pray for us. I asked for your intervention when my aunt was in Hospice. I also aked for Mary's intervention w/ the biblical, "Hail (Mary), full of grace." If I ask for your intercession, is that saying that Christ makes intercession? And yet we all do it, Protestants and Catholics alike? If you can pray for my aunt, why can't the saints in Heaven also pray for her?

"Because Mary was human, flesh and blood, was not a form of diety,'

You've said that before. Do you think that Catholics think that Mary is a "form of deity"? We really don't. Really. :-) We don't say that Mary is the mother of God because she is a goddess or some "form of deity". We say that she is the mother of God because she is, as it says in the Bible, and because you can't divide Jesus into 2 persons and say that Mary is only the mother of one of them. The one person, Jesus, had 2 natures. The mother of one has to be the mother of the other.

"That means she did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ."

Why?

"The verses where Christ refers to his "brother" and "sister" when also addressing Mary, we literally take as being Christ's siblings."

Why, when in many instances there is proof that the same words are used to refer to other relatives. The language didn't have seperate words for brother, nephew, cousin. The one word meant male relative. So why interpret literally in one instance? What do you use to decide that it should be taken literally in that particular instance?

Also, at His death Jesus entrusts his mother to another man, not any blood brothers. If Mary had other sons, Jesus would have entrusted his mother to them. James and Joseph are the sons of Mary, wife of Clopas.

"The trinity is similar to an egg. It has 3 parts, each serves a purpose, but it is one egg. When you hold it up and I ask you "what is this" you would answer "an egg" It has 3 parts with their own name, Shell, yolk, and white. But it's all still the same egg. So it is with the trinity.

And if I ask about the yolk, you tell me that it's all yolk with 2 natures, part A and part B. But would you say that only part A of the yolk is the son of the chicken that layed it? If the triune egg is truly one, though of 3 parts, can the mother of the egg be the mother of only part of one of the parts? Can part of the yolk have a mother that is not the mother of the rest, if the triune egg is truly One?

"To me, it seems equally illogical to attribute Mary as the Mother of God,..."

But the Bible says she is the mother of God--Lord, which means only God in the NT.

"thousands of years later, after Christ fulfilled his purpose. She was his earthly mother and blesed of God while she lived and breathed. He has no need of a mother now. "

Not only while she lived. The Bible says that generations will call her blessed. That clearly means that we are expected to have reverence for her long after Jesus' time on the cross. Mary is called "full of grace". Full. That denotes a very special place among women.

Mary's place is not the same as Jesus' role as Savior. There isn't any reason to worry that Catholics put Mary above Jesus. But she is a wonderful model as mother and servant of God. We should all model ourselves after her.

The Church is described as a vine and brances. We are, all of us, connected to each other. Does someone get cut off when he dies? He is more alive in Heaven than we are on Earth. Death isn't the end. No one is Heaven is cut off the vine after earthly death. We are still all connected. And so we have the communion of saints that includes those who have died before us. Doesn't the story of Lazarus talk about prayers by the dead to Abraham (as intercessor) to help the people still on earth?

"Also, some protestants believe that those who die do not got to heaven until after the return of Christ. They, as Jesus referred experience a type of "sleep". There are many scriptures refer to the saints as sleeping. So often folks will use the thief on the cross as an example that folks go directly to heaven or paradise. I feel that is wrong. :) "

I'm not sure I understand your the last part of this. You don't believe that people go directly to Heaven? I'm confused. lol

Joan

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