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Date Posted: 08:50:00 08/05/07 Sun
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: More on Mary
If one doesn't believe that Mary is the mother of God, what does he make of Elizabeth's saying, "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
In the NT, "Lord" is used to refer to God only.
If someone doesn't accept the Mary is the mother of God, isn't he denying the true incarnation?! Or maybe he's saying that Jesus is 2 persons--one human, one God--which is an ancient heresy, Nestorianism. It denies the Trinity as most people beleive in it--one God in 3 persons, God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus isn't two persons.
If the Bible says that Mary is the mother of God (In Elizabeth's words above), then why isn't it accepted?
How is "Lord" interpreted in that instance? Are they thinking that before birth (while in the womb) Jesus was Lord (God), but once born, he was merely human? But the Bible says that the savior will be born of a woman. Isn't the savior God? It didn't say that part of the savior would be born. I'm sorry to keep bringing this point up, but the "Mary isn't mother of God" thinking just doesn't make sense, logically or biblically, to me.
Joan
PS: Thanks for answering my repeated questions. I'm being a pest. :-)
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Re: More on Mary -- Lynn, 09:09:38 08/05/07 Sun [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)
I don't think your being a pest Joan. I have always wondered how God and Jesus could be one in the same entity. When Jesus was dying on the cross, he was crying out unto the Father. When Jesus was being baptized by John the Baptist, God the Father said " This is my beloved SON, in whom i'm well pleased ". If Jesus and God were one in the same, why these references that show that they are indeed seperate?
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Re: More on Mary -- Joan, 15:17:15 08/05/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
"He was God incarnate"
Yes, that's the point. He was God incarnate. God and human. Not one or the other. Mary couldn't have given birth to one or the other if Jesus was both. She had to give birth to both. Jesus has 2 natures (human and divine) in one person. To say that Mary gave birth to only His human nature, means that you divide Jesus into 2 persons. That's the old heresy, Nestorianism. Why does Jesus have to be divided into 2 persons to be born of Mary. Why can't Jesus, true man and true God, be born of Mary if God said it would be so? Why put limits on what God can do, especially if it's stated clearly in the Bible? (Elizabeth's words).
Yes, Mary was a servant of God. He chose her, but he didn't force her. She accepted what was happening to her of her own free will. Servant, I think, shouldn't be interpreted as forced laborer, as if against the person's will.
"Catholics will say they don't pray to Mary, but if you are saying, "Hail Mary full of Grace, ...Pray for us now.." Then you are asking for her intervention. Christ said he ascended unto the right hand of God where HE makes intercession for us."
But you don't see us worship Mary. We ask Mary to pray for us, just as we ask each other to pray for us. I asked for your intervention when my aunt was in Hospice. I also aked for Mary's intervention w/ the biblical, "Hail (Mary), full of grace." If I ask for your intercession, is that saying that Christ makes intercession? And yet we all do it, Protestants and Catholics alike? If you can pray for my aunt, why can't the saints in Heaven also pray for her?
"Because Mary was human, flesh and blood, was not a form of diety,'
You've said that before. Do you think that Catholics think that Mary is a "form of deity"? We really don't. Really. :-) We don't say that Mary is the mother of God because she is a goddess or some "form of deity". We say that she is the mother of God because she is, as it says in the Bible, and because you can't divide Jesus into 2 persons and say that Mary is only the mother of one of them. The one person, Jesus, had 2 natures. The mother of one has to be the mother of the other.
"That means she did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ."
Why?
"The verses where Christ refers to his "brother" and "sister" when also addressing Mary, we literally take as being Christ's siblings."
Why, when in many instances there is proof that the same words are used to refer to other relatives. The language didn't have seperate words for brother, nephew, cousin. The one word meant male relative. So why interpret literally in one instance? What do you use to decide that it should be taken literally in that particular instance?
Also, at His death Jesus entrusts his mother to another man, not any blood brothers. If Mary had other sons, Jesus would have entrusted his mother to them. James and Joseph are the sons of Mary, wife of Clopas.
"The trinity is similar to an egg. It has 3 parts, each serves a purpose, but it is one egg. When you hold it up and I ask you "what is this" you would answer "an egg" It has 3 parts with their own name, Shell, yolk, and white. But it's all still the same egg. So it is with the trinity.
And if I ask about the yolk, you tell me that it's all yolk with 2 natures, part A and part B. But would you say that only part A of the yolk is the son of the chicken that layed it? If the triune egg is truly one, though of 3 parts, can the mother of the egg be the mother of only part of one of the parts? Can part of the yolk have a mother that is not the mother of the rest, if the triune egg is truly One?
"To me, it seems equally illogical to attribute Mary as the Mother of God,..."
But the Bible says she is the mother of God--Lord, which means only God in the NT.
"thousands of years later, after Christ fulfilled his purpose. She was his earthly mother and blesed of God while she lived and breathed. He has no need of a mother now. "
Not only while she lived. The Bible says that generations will call her blessed. That clearly means that we are expected to have reverence for her long after Jesus' time on the cross. Mary is called "full of grace". Full. That denotes a very special place among women.
Mary's place is not the same as Jesus' role as Savior. There isn't any reason to worry that Catholics put Mary above Jesus. But she is a wonderful model as mother and servant of God. We should all model ourselves after her.
The Church is described as a vine and brances. We are, all of us, connected to each other. Does someone get cut off when he dies? He is more alive in Heaven than we are on Earth. Death isn't the end. No one is Heaven is cut off the vine after earthly death. We are still all connected. And so we have the communion of saints that includes those who have died before us. Doesn't the story of Lazarus talk about prayers by the dead to Abraham (as intercessor) to help the people still on earth?
"Also, some protestants believe that those who die do not got to heaven until after the return of Christ. They, as Jesus referred experience a type of "sleep". There are many scriptures refer to the saints as sleeping. So often folks will use the thief on the cross as an example that folks go directly to heaven or paradise. I feel that is wrong. :) "
I'm not sure I understand your the last part of this. You don't believe that people go directly to Heaven? I'm confused. lol
Joan
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Re: More on Mary -- Catie, 11:15:57 08/05/07 Sun [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)
Joan, stop being a pest! *hee*hee
"If someone doesn't accept the Mary is the mother of God, isn't he denying the true incarnation?! Or maybe he's saying that Jesus is 2 persons--one human, one God--which is an ancient heresy, Nestorianism. It denies the Trinity as most people beleive in it--one God in 3 persons, God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus isn't two persons. "
"If the Bible says that Mary is the mother of God (In Elizabeth's words above), then why isn't it accepted? "
Joan, gotta hand it to you. You ask some good questions. :)
In that scripture verse you are referring to, Mary refers to herself 2x's as a "servant" of God. Then she goes on to extole the greatness of God. At one point she focuses on herself, saying for generations she will be called blessed of God. But that entire chapter is not about Mary, in as much as it is about the Lord. I think protestants feel Catholics put all the focus on Mary instead of Christ. Catholics will say they don't pray to Mary, but if you are saying, "Hail Mary full of Grace, ...Pray for us now.." Then you are asking for her intervention. Christ said he ascended unto the right hand of God where HE makes intercession for us. The Protestant belief is that Mary was a servant,a vessel used of god while on earth. We also believe, because the scripture speaks of her being bethrothed to Joseph and we read where "they" went to Bethlehem together to pay taxes,that Joseph married her. That means she did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ. The verses where Christ refers to his "brother" and "sister" when also addressing Mary, we literally take as being Christ's siblings.
Because Mary was human, flesh and blood, was not a form of diety, but a vessel used to deliver the son of God in flesh, she has no sepcial power. As I said before, even she was rebuked by Christ when she couldn't find him as a young boy, & went looking for him. He asked her "Don't you know that I'm here to do my father's business??" It seems as though she had forgotten he didn't "belong" to her. To attribute to her any power (Mary pray for us) indicates, it seems,that she still has some special pull with God. Mary was blessed of God while here, yes, but, she served her purpose. The Saducee's asked Christ whose wife would a widow be after being married to 7 brothers. Christ said that after death, we become like the angels in that we do not marry, we do not have relationships as family. We are all children of God, one family. Also after the gospels, somewhere in the new testament, St.Paul I think it is, who says God is no respector of persons. All are equal in his eyes.
My Mother will not be my Mother in heaven, although I will know her in heaven. There will be no need for a parent-child relationship, for we are all one. Therefore Mary is no longer "Mother" to Jesus. Do we stop being parents after we die? Yes. We become spiritual beings, no reason to be in the same positions we held on earth.
How does that affect Christ and the trinity? It doesn't. The bible says, "He became flesh and lived among us" to experience life as us. He was God incarnate.
The trinity is similar to an egg. It has 3 parts, each serves a purpose, but it is one egg. When you hold it up and I ask you "what is this" you would answer "an egg" It has 3 parts with their own name, Shell, yolk, and white. But it's all still the same egg. So it is with the trinity.
To me, it seems equally illogical to attribute Mary as the Mother of God, thousands of years later, after Christ fulfilled his purpose. She was his earthly mother and blesed of God while she lived and breathed. He has no need of a mother now.
Also, some protestants believe that those who die do not got to heaven until after the return of Christ. They, as Jesus referred experience a type of "sleep". There are many scriptures refer to the saints as sleeping. So often folks will use the thief on the cross as an example that folks go directly to heaven or paradise. I feel that is wrong. :)
Your turn. :)
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No respecter of persons -- Joan, 12:56:07 08/06/07 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
" St.Paul I think it is, who says God is no respector of persons."
Refresh my memory. Wasn't he, Paul, talking about earthly status--rich vs poor, politically powerful vs impotent, Master vs slave. Wasn't he saying that all of that doesn't matter to God, but how you conduct yourself does. He tells everyone to act honorably. If you are a slave, respect and obey your master. If you are the master, treat your slave well.
Mary was chosen above all other women-blessed among wome--she wasn't "merely" a vessel. I don't think that God would forget this service freely undertaken by Mary. He doesn't forget the Martyrs. In fact, martyrs are rewarded by going directly to Heaven. We know for sure that anyone who dies for his faith is in Heaven. The apostles who were killed for the faith are saints in Heaven. Surely Mary was rewarded for her service to God.
But again, this doesn't have anything to do w/ God's not being "respecter of persons". That, I think, refers to earthly status. God will not care if you were an emperor or slave. How you lived is what counts. If both beleived in Jesus and didn't deny him w/ their actions until the very end, they will be rewarded in Heaven. And there, God will not care that one was "higher" than the other on Earth.
The verse I was talking about--Hang on. I have to get the old fart's (large type) Bible.--It's Luke 1:43. It starts earlier.
"when Elizbeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?...Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Refresh my memory again, if it's failing me. Doesn't the Bible say that the savior will be born of a virgin? If the virgin were mother only to a human, how could she give birth to the savior? She must have given birth to both natures of Jesus--human and divine. If Jesus is divided into two persons, and only the human person was born of the virgin, then the savior is not born of the virgin, because the human person alone couldn't be the savior.
Joan
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You guys are great. :-) -- Joan, 18:59:22 08/05/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
I appreciate these discussions more than you know. I'm starting to understand the thinking behind the differences in belief. Interesting!
Who says people shouldn't discuss religion. :-)
Joan
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Quote, Joan "Who says people shouldn't discuss religion.".............. -- Barb, 08:02:47 08/06/07 Mon [1] (clgrtnt4-port-218.dial.telus.net/161.184.46.218)
It depends how far apart we are, Joan. I can only get involved so far on your fine forum because our differences (religious) are just too great. I know you will understand that. Our respect for one another as human beings and friends though, is quite a different matter. :-)
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Barb -- Catie, 08:40:43 08/06/07 Mon [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)
I think you are more than generous with us Christians. I'm not sure I'd be as kind as you have been in responding to us, a group of folks whose beliefs are on another scale entirely from what you know and believe as truth. One thing I love about you is that you have always been open to receive me as a friend for no other reason than me being "me". You are rare in that you not only look beyond differences in religion, but that you also allow me a platform to express my views without protest or prejudice. I have no doubt you loved greatly by God.
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" Ditto " -- Lynn, 10:26:05 08/06/07 Mon [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)
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Catie...........(Lynn too)............................ -- Barb, 11:58:19 08/06/07 Mon [1] (clgrtnt6-port-118.dial.telus.net/161.184.50.118)
I truly believe that the willing heart does not recognize differences. We are a thing apart religiously, but we are all united on this good earth to share the bonds of friendship if we see clearly, see past what might tear us apart. See instead what might bring us together! :-)
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Amen to that Barb... -- Lynn, 13:04:51 08/06/07 Mon [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)
I know I owe you an e-mail, been procrastinating getting to it. One of these days I will. I have to catch up on work, the forums, the grandkids, and all that good stuff, but I will get to it, I promise.
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Worry not, Lynn............ -- Barb, 16:55:47 08/06/07 Mon [1] (clgrtnt3-port-93.dial.telus.net/161.184.44.93)
I know you've got your hands full. My granddaughter only visits, while your grandchildren are under the same roof. My time is more my own than yours is and I understand completely.
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Very well said, Barb!!! -- Neysa, 13:14:28 08/06/07 Mon [1] (user-38lcim4.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.74.196)
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