Sharing two extremely disturbing articles -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 08:15:29 08/17/07 Fri
Author: catie
Author Host/IP: h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net / 75.91.42.69
Subject: Sharing two extremely disturbing articles

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20279326/?GT1=10252 and
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-...a&ctrack=1&cset=true (this one requires a login so I'll abbreviate it here) Quoting:

Wiley S. Drake, a Buena Park pastor and a former national leader of the Southern Baptist Convention, called on his followers to pray for the deaths of two leaders of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

The request was in response to the liberal group's urging the IRS on Tuesday to investigate Drake's church's nonprofit status because Drake endorsed former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee for president on church letterhead and during a church-affiliated Internet radio show.

Drake said Wednesday he was "simply doing what God told me to do" by targeting Americans United officials Joe Conn and Jeremy Leaming, whom he calls the "enemies of God."

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[> How do you feel about Church being involved with politics? -- Catie, 10:14:10 08/17/07 Fri [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)

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[> [> Re: How do you feel about Church being involved with politics? -- Joan, 14:07:44 08/17/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I think a church has the right to take a stand on issues of morality. It doesn't have the right to campaign for certain politicians over others, even if certain politicians follow the church's teaching more closely.

We have 2 politicians in our congregation. The church has *never* endorsed either one. The names have never been mentioned in a homily. I can't remember ever hearing a homily on politics or politicians. We aren't told how to vote. We aren't told to vote. We aren't told to vote for candidates that have certain views.

We pray for the end to war (all war), but Iraq is never mentioned. There was one time it was mentioned, because a group of soldiers had sent the church a plaque after they found out that a prayer group at the church was praying for their unit. I think they sent letters and gifts to the guys in Iraq, too, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, I don't think the pulpit is the right place to discuss politics. And I don't think that any adult has the right to tell other adults how to think about politics anyway, so there's no way I support a pastor's telling his congregation how they should vote.

Joan

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Re:This is nothing new... -- Phil, 11:07:40 08/17/07 Fri [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

This has been going on for a generation now. Lib'ls demand that churches from the Christian Rt are investigated by the IRS for allegations of delving into politics, while Cons'tives insist that the IRS look into Inner City churches for the same reasons. In the end, not much is done abt this stuff, at all.

Personally, I dont know why these Christian groups sully themselves by participating in the political process at all, at the Nat'l level. (Its usually more effective and practical at the local level.) Its plain to me that politicians and these despicable activists are lower life forms who look out after themselves, and their own petty interests, at the expense of the nation.

Meanwhile, what have our nat'l leaders done abt the pressing issues of our time? What of immigration, tax reform, our nat'l infra-structure (bridge, hi-ways, etc.), govt spending, soc'l sec'ty reform? Practically nothing's been done, that's what!

Personally, I dont mind if they pray for these guys who have nothing better to do than to tgt decent Americans. They need all the help they can get! LoL

In my opinion, though, this is a minor matter, that the media has blown way outta control. It goes on all the time, and for some reason, this one has gotten more attn.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> Re: On the Dutch event.... -- Phil, 12:01:35 08/17/07 Fri [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

Like us, and most of Western Civ, the Dutch have a real problem with immigration. Anti-immigration groups have grown up all over Europe to the point where they've actually gotten elected to office. Their influence will continue to grow if authorities in those countries dont get a handle on immigration.

I am also very familiar with the Van Gogh assassination. He made an excellent documentary on how badly treated women are treated in the Muslim world. He was murdered on the street by a Muslim fanatic as a result. This sparked a wave of mosque burnings and threats against the Muslim population.

While I do not condone that response against Muslims, I do not think we should give them any quarter. Lets be honest folks, Islam is anti-Western religion which seeks to dominate our civilization. They seek to take advantage of our tolerant societies by replacing them with an intolerant ones, that mistreats women and other folks.

You may think this is way outta line, but perhaps you have not been to, or lived in Europe as long as I have. Its pretty scary there, and something needs to be done abt it now. I hope they find a political solution to this dilemma or it could get ugly. A similar problem may occur here.

Having said that, I do not support the banning of the Koran. That's silly! To compare the Koran with Mein Kampf is ridiculous. And I think I understand what that clergyman is doing: creating an atmosphere of tolerence and understanding with the Muslim comm'ty by calling God Allah and so on. I believe he is misguided however, and it will only result in a backlash. He may already have protective security assigned to him.

I believe in 'peaceful co-existence' with the Muslim comm'ty, as long as they dont cause any trouble. I do not want to have much to do with Muslims, but will answer them only when spoken to.

Again, this may seem an over-reaction, but I have lived and traveled in the outside world, and have witnessed, first-hand, a lot of this stuff.

Phil from AZ

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[> [> The meaning of co-existence -- Joan, 18:20:05 08/18/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"I believe in 'peaceful co-existence' with the Muslim comm'ty, as long as they dont cause any trouble. I do not want to have much to do with Muslims, but will answer them only when spoken to."

This is what really gets me about this thinking. Who gets to say who are the real Americans and deem others virtual guests? Who gets to decide that a particular group is "allowed" to co-exist, as if it were the first groups right to allow or not allow the other to be here, as if this "peaceful co-existence" were a choice of the first group, as if the first group could legally and morally choose otherwise.

I wouldn't associate with a KKK member, but I don't group all Protestants w/ the KKK. Why should anyone group all Muslims w/ radical factions?

FWIW, the KKK was (and is) a "fine" terrorist group itself. They are racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic, and anti-American. They're also Protestants. Should we group all Protestants w/ the KKK and say that we won't talk to any of them (the Protestants) unless spoken to first? Does it make sense to say that we'll tolerate "peaceful co-existence" with Protestants so long as they don't cause trouble?

I know that many, many Protestants think exactly like that--that Catholics, Jews, Blacks, Asians, gay people, and others are tolerated by them, because they are the "real" Americans. They truly believe that others are allowed to be here out of their own good-will. They act like the "others" should be grateful to them for the right to practice their religion, to be black and be able to vote, and other such natural rights. These rights are natural rights. They are God-given. The laws allow us to practice these rights w/o being killed, but what does the law really do? It doesn't give Catholics the right to practice their religion, it prevents others from restricting the Catholic's natural right. The law didn't correct a Catholic problem, it corrected the bad behavior and wrong thinking of those who tried to restrict others' natural right to practice their religion. The law didn't create the right to practice the religion of your choice. It stopped others from restricting the practice of the right. In reality, no one can give these rights to you, and they can't take them away. They can make it impossible for you to practice your rights w/o being punished, but the right is still yours. That's why we say that someone violates another's rights, not that they take the rights away. No one has that power. No person, no political party, no judge, and no terrorist can take your rights away. All they can do is violate them.

Anyway, I started this post to ask you why you wouldn't talk to a Muslim person.

Joan

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[> [> [> Re: Joan you're making more outta this.... -- Phil, 21:50:30 08/18/07 Sat [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

...than there really is. I'm simply referring to the fact that I choose not to associate with them. Since I'm ret'd, and no longer an employee of the Fed'l govt, its not a work-place issue. I'm not a landlord, so I dont have to pay much attn to landlord-tenant issues. As far as I know, there are no Muslims in any local club or organization I belong to.

Its just a preference, that's all. Once, when I was going to a 7/11 in TX, I saw an ominous-looking gang of folks on motorcycles on my way out of the store. I chose not to talk to them either. I minded my own biz, and just moved on. So, like that, this is a preference. Nothing more, nothing less.

Its seldom mandatory that I talk to everyone. So I choose not to speak to Muslims, unless they speak to me. My concerns over REAL Americans vs. nominal Americans gets me nowhere. So, for now, I'll just express my right NOT to speak to somebody, since I'm not req'd by law to do so.

If you wanna hang out with them, there's your biz, Joan. LoL. Meanwhile, I chose not to. That's all. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> I think I got it just right. -- Joan, 03:27:32 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Comparing a single Muslim person to a gang of thugs is just what I thought you were doing.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

FWIW, all Americans are real Americans--the non-white Muslim who is a brand new citizen is just as much an American as you are, with equal rights. I know that irks you to no end, but that's an issue that you will have to deal with in your own way. If snubbing someone releives your anger over non-white muslims being allowed equal citizenship and rights, well continue to stick your nose in the air. Just watch out when it rains. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: To brand me a racist is simply not on.... -- Phil, 06:38:57 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

Islam is an Int'l religion, and is an idea, not a race. To brand me a racist because I dont like the fact that religion has been high-jacked by a bunch of blood-thristy thugs, is way out of line. Unfortunately, its typical of folks who dont want to deal with the threat it poses us, nor have they physically done so...as I have. They prefer to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the threat and simply blast the msgr. Its becoming obvious that it would be better for me to shut my mouth, and sit back and wait to shout: "I told you so!" when the worst happens. It reminds me of 1930s Europe, which turned a blind eye to Nazi Germany.

Secondly, I'm much more sophisticated than that; and my rec'd of svc is much more distinguished in the area of Civil Rts than the vast maj'ty of white people. I have actually stood side-by-side with folks who have had legit grievances based on race.

My second gripe is with illegal immigration. That also crosses lines of race, creed and the realm of ideas. In addition to folks of color, there are also 'criminals', here illegally from places such as Eastern Europe and Ireland. In places out West, there are Aussies, New Zealanders, Asians and Pacific Islanders who're here illegally. If we dealt with illegal immigration as a serious legal problem, we wouldnt have such a problem that will cloud our future. Again, folks are looking the other way, with flimsy excuses like it may hurt the economy a lil. Oh pu-leaze!

Finally, it's some of you Northeasterners who are reknown for the snobby behavior, not the places where I've lived. You're the ones with your noses in the air, and now, with a towel over your head...ignoring these 2 serious issues. If you wish to look the other way and ignore these problems, there's not much I can do abt it. Besides, it seems to be an epidemic these days. But please dont cloud the issue further by labelling me a racist. First of all, that is not true, given my rec'd, nor is it fair or wise. Secondly, it does not help much to resovle this very serious debate.

Sincerely,

Phil from AZ...haven for illegal immigrants.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Well, Phil, I have to say that no one loves you the way you do. ;-) -- Joan, 13:07:07 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Your self-esteem is never low, and you never fail to inform others of your superiority in many, many fields. :-)

"nd now, with a towel over your head...ignoring these 2 serious issues. "

Ah, yes a poorly veiled reference to "towel heads".

And now it's Northeasterns your lumping as a group--to prove that you're not a racist but a sectionalist. All Northeasterns are alike of course, and we are all what non-Northeasterners think we are. If there's a stereotype, it must be true. ;-)

Really, Phil. lol

If you choose to call all Muslims dangerous because of the radicals who claim to be of the same religion, and you choose to call that enlightened, go right ahead. Free speech and all, right?

Did you ever get around to finding the papers you wrote on the last question? You were going to provide some examples.

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I said SOME of you NE'rs... -- Phil from AZ, 13:47:48 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

...which is very mild compared to what other folks I know say abt NE'rs...and Muslim sympathizers, for that matter. As for my 'papers', yes I do have the arguments, but I doubt that you will receive them very well. Rt now, I choose not to fuel the debate further, given the current temp.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sure, Phil. :-) -- Joan, 15:42:03 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

FWIW, no one gets upset with what you say. We know you by now. You're the resident stirrer-upper. We know that. We just wait to see what you will say next. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, I'll admit to provoking thought.... -- Phil, 16:11:55 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

...something that seems to be a lost art nowadays. I'm glad you await my posts eagerly. As you accurately point out, there are a nbr of folks who're informed and entertained by what I post (even if they dont post much themselves), altho sometimes they admit that they dont always agree w/ me. Contrary to conventional wisdom (or lack thereof), I get several emails per week from these folks, encouraging me to express my points of view.

So I shall continue, whether here or thru some other venue. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That's it exactly, Phil. :-) -- Joan, 04:36:06 08/20/07 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

What would a forum be without your POV? :-)

Joan

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[> Heck, "certain" of the Arab countries and factions............. -- Barb, 12:56:08 08/17/07 Fri [1] (clgrtnt9-port-9.dial.telus.net/161.184.54.9)

have been hell-bent for the destruction of Israel since it became a country in 1948. Talk about mixing religion and politics! :-#

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[> [> Re: Amen Barb!!! -- Phil, 13:01:19 08/17/07 Fri [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

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[> [> [> Just 2 words Phil....and such complying ones! Thank you kind sir. :-) -- Barb, 13:02:38 08/17/07 Fri [1] (clgrtnt9-port-9.dial.telus.net/161.184.54.9)

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[> [> [> [> Re: You may not be as alone as you think, Barb! -- Phil, 13:32:42 08/17/07 Fri [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

The vast maj'ty of us on the Christian Rt are very, very supportive of Israel. I also saw a similar respect for the country during my days in the military. Israel is a solid dem'cy which is the Holy Land for a lot of us too. Thus, it behooves us to support such a country times 10!

I do have something positive to say abt a few of those countries in the region: mainly 'moderate' Arab nations such as Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Oman and Bahrain. While not really friends of Israel, they have provided bases and other spt for us in the region. They are worried abt Iran, Iraq, and believe it or not, S Arabia. They fear that the Saudi's will snap them up someday while the rest of the world pays no attn. The jury's still out on those nations though; so I'm not necessarily screamin' my approval yet.

Suffice it to say, though, that we're behind Isreal! Take care, God Bless,

Phil

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[> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Phil. :-) -- Barb, 10:49:43 08/19/07 Sun [1] (clgrtnt6-port-238.dial.telus.net/161.184.50.238)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're most welcome Barb! -- Phil, 16:15:01 08/19/07 Sun [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

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[> [> Barb, do you think the Palestinians should be allowed -- Joan, 14:23:27 08/17/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

to form their own country? If not now, do you think it should ever be allowed? If you think it shouldn't be allowed now, what conditions would have to be met before they can form their own country?

I think they should be allowed to form their own country. Not sure that now is the time. It would just become a terrorist haven. Then again, the area is already.

You want to say that the terrorism has to stop before they can begin to form their own state, but if that were the rule for everyone before them, Israel certainly wouldn't have been allowed to be. The U.S. either. Lots of what other people have done in the past would be called terrorism today.

What do you think?

Actually, what I really think is that the experts better handle this right, because I don't have a clue how to settle that dispute. And they better handle it right, because if there is a WWIII, I think that's where it's going to start. It won't be a war of ideals. It will be, like all wars, a political war. Get the right ingredients together (the right incentives--the pay-off for winning must be big enough, we (the West) must want something bad enough), and the world will come to Israels' defense over something that would have been handled another way if those ingredients weren't all cook-up just right. Know what I mean? I really think that some day, the West will use Israel and the Palestinians as an excuse to get what they want in that area.

It's sick, but that's politics.

I wish that Israel and the Palestinians would come to a sensible and fair agreement. I see valid points on both sides, so why can't they just compromise? Both groups are there to stay. It would be nice if the Palestinians would accept this. Maybe they would if they were guaranteed their own land. But both sides would have to agree not to take land from each other. I can dream. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> Joan................ -- Barb, 07:58:06 08/18/07 Sat [1] (clgrtnt2-port-145.dial.telus.net/161.184.42.145)

This is politics and I am not going to get into politics about something I have very personal feelings about due to having a brother who lives in the Golan Heights, and information that is not generally well known. Please forgive me for not replying directly to your questions. I will honestly say though that of course I think the Palestinians should have the right to form their own country..and the Israelis feel the same way about that too.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Joan................ -- Joan, 04:11:38 08/19/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I understand. Politics is even more volatile than religion.

You mention that you have info that's not generally well-known. Is this "inside information", or something you can share with us?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Joan.................... -- Barb, 07:52:10 08/19/07 Sun [1] (clgrtnt7-port-89.dial.telus.net/161.184.52.89)

Inside information. My brother was an officer in the Israeli army before his retirement.

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[> Uh, is that a Christian church? -- Joan, 13:59:47 08/17/07 Fri [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

He doesn't sound like he knows what being a Christian means. Praying for someone's death, hoping they suffer, or wishing them anything evil is a deadly sin--anger.

I know that many don't consider anger a sin, but being upset about something and this kind of anger are two different things.

I hope that Drake comes to his senses soon. If not, he's not a fit leader for the congregation.

Does the SBC have a governing body that can investigate and call Drake in to counsel him about this?

Joan

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[> [> Re: I'm sorry I misunderstd... -- Phil, 14:05:59 08/17/07 Fri [1] (71-38-101-56.phnx.qwest.net/71.38.101.56)

I thought that these guys were praying FOR them. Almost never, should we pray for bad things to happen to people. You're right Joan. Like you, I think its NOT Christian to do what those folks did.

I thought they meant that they were praying FOR them. Sorry, but I misunderstood...

Phil

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[> [> Re: Uh, is that a Christian church? -- Catie, 05:05:36 08/20/07 Mon [1] (h69.42.91.75.ip.alltel.net/75.91.42.69)

I don't know anything about that particular sect of Baptists. I assume he is for real. Scary huh?

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[> [> [> Re: Uh, is that a Christian church? -- Joan, 14:08:24 08/20/07 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I think it's an example of radicalism. When people go radical, they really lose sight of reality. They think they're doing this for their God, but they are actually going against what their religion teaches. They hi-jack the religion and claim it's the true (reformed, pure, orthodox, pick a word) version of the religion and that everyone else is wrong, as if the others have given in to modern times or "liberal" ideals.

There's no talking to them. When someone can pray for another's death, what's there to say?

It is scary. It goes to show that this can happen anywhere in any religion. Thankfully we live in the U.S. where this kind of radicalism isn't likely to amount to much. They won't be taking over the government--I hope!

Joan

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