Re: More on Mary -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 11:15:57 08/05/07 Sun
Author: Catie
Author Host/IP: h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net / 151.213.243.166
Subject: Re: More on Mary
In reply to: Joan 's message, "More on Mary" on 08:50:00 08/05/07 Sun

Joan, stop being a pest! *hee*hee

"If someone doesn't accept the Mary is the mother of God, isn't he denying the true incarnation?! Or maybe he's saying that Jesus is 2 persons--one human, one God--which is an ancient heresy, Nestorianism. It denies the Trinity as most people beleive in it--one God in 3 persons, God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus isn't two persons. "

"If the Bible says that Mary is the mother of God (In Elizabeth's words above), then why isn't it accepted? "

Joan, gotta hand it to you. You ask some good questions. :)

In that scripture verse you are referring to, Mary refers to herself 2x's as a "servant" of God. Then she goes on to extole the greatness of God. At one point she focuses on herself, saying for generations she will be called blessed of God. But that entire chapter is not about Mary, in as much as it is about the Lord. I think protestants feel Catholics put all the focus on Mary instead of Christ. Catholics will say they don't pray to Mary, but if you are saying, "Hail Mary full of Grace, ...Pray for us now.." Then you are asking for her intervention. Christ said he ascended unto the right hand of God where HE makes intercession for us. The Protestant belief is that Mary was a servant,a vessel used of god while on earth. We also believe, because the scripture speaks of her being bethrothed to Joseph and we read where "they" went to Bethlehem together to pay taxes,that Joseph married her. That means she did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ. The verses where Christ refers to his "brother" and "sister" when also addressing Mary, we literally take as being Christ's siblings.

Because Mary was human, flesh and blood, was not a form of diety, but a vessel used to deliver the son of God in flesh, she has no sepcial power. As I said before, even she was rebuked by Christ when she couldn't find him as a young boy, & went looking for him. He asked her "Don't you know that I'm here to do my father's business??" It seems as though she had forgotten he didn't "belong" to her. To attribute to her any power (Mary pray for us) indicates, it seems,that she still has some special pull with God. Mary was blessed of God while here, yes, but, she served her purpose. The Saducee's asked Christ whose wife would a widow be after being married to 7 brothers. Christ said that after death, we become like the angels in that we do not marry, we do not have relationships as family. We are all children of God, one family. Also after the gospels, somewhere in the new testament, St.Paul I think it is, who says God is no respector of persons. All are equal in his eyes.

My Mother will not be my Mother in heaven, although I will know her in heaven. There will be no need for a parent-child relationship, for we are all one. Therefore Mary is no longer "Mother" to Jesus. Do we stop being parents after we die? Yes. We become spiritual beings, no reason to be in the same positions we held on earth.

How does that affect Christ and the trinity? It doesn't. The bible says, "He became flesh and lived among us" to experience life as us. He was God incarnate.

The trinity is similar to an egg. It has 3 parts, each serves a purpose, but it is one egg. When you hold it up and I ask you "what is this" you would answer "an egg" It has 3 parts with their own name, Shell, yolk, and white. But it's all still the same egg. So it is with the trinity.

To me, it seems equally illogical to attribute Mary as the Mother of God, thousands of years later, after Christ fulfilled his purpose. She was his earthly mother and blesed of God while she lived and breathed. He has no need of a mother now.

Also, some protestants believe that those who die do not got to heaven until after the return of Christ. They, as Jesus referred experience a type of "sleep". There are many scriptures refer to the saints as sleeping. So often folks will use the thief on the cross as an example that folks go directly to heaven or paradise. I feel that is wrong. :)

Your turn. :)

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[> [> No respecter of persons -- Joan, 12:56:07 08/06/07 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

" St.Paul I think it is, who says God is no respector of persons."

Refresh my memory. Wasn't he, Paul, talking about earthly status--rich vs poor, politically powerful vs impotent, Master vs slave. Wasn't he saying that all of that doesn't matter to God, but how you conduct yourself does. He tells everyone to act honorably. If you are a slave, respect and obey your master. If you are the master, treat your slave well.

Mary was chosen above all other women-blessed among wome--she wasn't "merely" a vessel. I don't think that God would forget this service freely undertaken by Mary. He doesn't forget the Martyrs. In fact, martyrs are rewarded by going directly to Heaven. We know for sure that anyone who dies for his faith is in Heaven. The apostles who were killed for the faith are saints in Heaven. Surely Mary was rewarded for her service to God.

But again, this doesn't have anything to do w/ God's not being "respecter of persons". That, I think, refers to earthly status. God will not care if you were an emperor or slave. How you lived is what counts. If both beleived in Jesus and didn't deny him w/ their actions until the very end, they will be rewarded in Heaven. And there, God will not care that one was "higher" than the other on Earth.

The verse I was talking about--Hang on. I have to get the old fart's (large type) Bible.--It's Luke 1:43. It starts earlier.

"when Elizbeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?...Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

Refresh my memory again, if it's failing me. Doesn't the Bible say that the savior will be born of a virgin? If the virgin were mother only to a human, how could she give birth to the savior? She must have given birth to both natures of Jesus--human and divine. If Jesus is divided into two persons, and only the human person was born of the virgin, then the savior is not born of the virgin, because the human person alone couldn't be the savior.

Joan

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