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Date Posted: 17:43:49 11/04/07 Sun
Author: Catie
Author Host/IP: h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net / 151.213.252.164
Subject: and clarification
In reply to: Catie 's message, "I agree" on 17:31:59 11/04/07 Sun

Although the term "saved" is not used, I do believe one can know their sins are forgiven. We can have fellowship with God himself when we have confessed sins and knowingly, choose to turn our back on it. It is a daily process of asking God to renew our strength as temptations come daily also. But I believe a Christian can live by faith, knowing their confession of sin has been accepted. If God knows the number of hairs on our head, how much more can he see the inside, intention of our hearts. I can KNOW that I have a place with him someday when I die If I live my life to reflect his life. And I don't have to worry about being "good enough" because within myself I am not, never would be. I am born into Adam's sin. But when God sees me now he sees his son's blood across the door post of my heart. Yes I can know that I have salvation.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- Joan, 20:05:08 11/04/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I'm short on time right now--heading off to bed--so I'll answer the easiest question--the one with the shortest answer--first.

"How do you know that the priest you are confessing to is not free of sin..."

It doesn't matter. Sins are forgiven by the power of God. No person is perfect, including priests. They might be holier than some and less holy than others. A priest can be living in mortal sin, and the Sacraments are still valid. The Sacraments aren't through the priest's own power or his goodness.

I'll get more into Confession as a sacrament tomorrow.

I'd love to read about your "hell fire". Controversy? We can handle it here. :-)

"Yes I can know that I have salvation."

I believe that we have a chance at salvation, if I persevere to the very end. I think it's Paul who says that he worries about working to help others but may himself lose out in the end. If Paul wasn't certain that he was "saved", then I don't feel comfortable being so sure myself. That little thing, free will, is always present. God invites us to follow him, but there is no guarantee that we will persist until the very end. Many things can happen in a lifetime.

After I wrote the above, I reread your post. "I can KNOW that I have a place with him someday when I die If I live my life to reflect his life"

It sounds like we actually agree. "If I live my life..." We can know that salvation is offered. And we can know what we need to do, yes do. What we can't know is the future. We have to persevere to the very end.

One more quick note. :-) We say a general confession at church every Sunday--not in the Confessional. We're required to "go to Confession" once a year and before we receive Communion again if we are guilty of an unconfessed mortal sin.

Joan
Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- Joan, 04:17:39 11/10/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Thirdly, you speak of 'free will' Joan. I have a 100 questions for that but will settle for a couple. First of all, what choice does a baby have to be baptized and what is the sig'nce of that? Where is free will there? It seems mostly ceremonial to me, albeit a wonderful symbolic gesture."

Well, since you say that you were a Catholic once, and that you still appreciate that education, I won't treat you like you're stupid, since you already know the answer to those questions. "Symbolic gesture" indeed. lol

"And if God is all-knowing and omni-present how can he not know who will be 'saved' and who will be headed in the other direction? If you don't have a direct answer for that, I will understand, given that Christendom has been debated that for over 500 yrs now. "

Of course he knows, because he exists outside of what we call "time". That should never mean to anyone that their future is predetermined. Free will determines what will become of us. We may be dirty rotten scoundrels for most of our lives, but turn to God in later life. Or, we may be pretty good people for years, only to turn away from God forever.

You may know someone's life story--Abe Lincoln's, for example. But does that mean his "story" was predetermined, that his free will to act had nothing to do with the outcome of his life? Hardly. God knows how things will be, simply because he exists outside of our "time" constraints. He is the uncaused cause. He always was and alwas will be. God simply is.

How does that mean that we have no free will, or that our free will has nothing to do with possibility?

Are you saying that someone's free will has nothing to do with anything? That the free will to say yes to God is meaningless? What then of the idea that God invites us to come to him, but doesn't demand it?

And would a loving God choose to damn some people just, apparently, for the fun of it? If free will were meaningless, then why would God not choose, to predetermine, that all of his creation be "saved"?

The only logical answer is free will. God invites us to follow him, but he doesn't force us. He doesn't predetermine who will be saved. He knows, because he exists outside of our "time", but he surely doesn't damn some and save others, as if he were a cruel chessmaster playing with his pieces for sport.

If we believe that God wants all of us to be united with Him in Heaven forever, then he could never predetermine that some of us could never say "yes" to his invitation. In that case, He would not truly want all of us to be "saved".

Still, though God knows the outcome, we can't know that, unless we say that we can tell fortunes about the future. That, I'm pretty sure, is probably not a Christians doctine in any denomination. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> This should be under Phil's response. -- Joan, 02:24:40 11/11/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

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