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Date Posted: 17:31:59 11/04/07 Sun
Author: Catie
Author Host/IP: h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net / 151.213.252.164
Subject: I agree
In reply to: Joan 's message, "Re: correction" on 05:06:48 11/04/07 Sun

I do believe some of what you say Joan, at least I understand where you are coming from. YES, indeed unconfessed sins can keep us out of heaven. If we willingly harbor sin we should not expect to enter into a sinless heaven. There will be those who think they are pious enough to get in to heaven -those folks are ones who did "works" to earn their way in. The scripture explains those are the ones who said, "God, did we do this, and this in your name?" Some folks truly believe they can "work" their way to heaven.

We don't use the term "saved" in my denomination either. Only in the end will we know who is "saved." It is a presumption indeed. However, I do believe, according to God's own word, one can know for sure if Christ is Lord in their heart and life and understand what it is to seek him first and place him above all else. One who does so then does it out of desire to fellowship with God, to love him, because he first loved us.

A new commandment Christ gave while on earth. That we love one another. Why? "By this shall all men know that you are of me, that you have love one for another." Perfected love casts out fear(doubt). If we LOVE God- I mean truly LOVE him, then we will long to live our lives as he planned for us and we can surely overcome any of the temptations of the world. That is scripture. SO we don't have to sweat it out wondering if we are "good" enough to be accepted. None are righteous, not one. Every child of God is so because they have come to the father willingly asking him to be their father. The flip side is they will reflect him in their life when they have him in their hearts.

If I confess a sin to a man, even a man who speaks God's word, then I have gotten that off my chest. "Confession is good for the soul". "Confess your sins one to another" "Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ". But with all respect, the bible states only God (Christ)can absolve man of sin. How can a Catholic then be sure that he is forgiven if he confessed to a man and not God himself? With that thought I can understand where a Catholic would consider "A person might beleive in God, and has faith that God will save him, but he still might not be a good person in God's eyes." I, as a Christian could not depend upon a man, priest, or pastor, et al, to absolve me of sins that only diety has the authority to do so. When a Catholic confesses to his priest does he also pray to God at that time or does the priest pray for him on his behalf? I might have misunderstood. ( I have been known to do so a time or two in my 52 years) :) The protestant feels that when a man (priest) says say such and such, maybe an example, ten hail Mary's, or such, it is similar as a protestant preacher saying, go bow at the alter 10 times and your sins will be gone. Where was the communication with God? Christ died so that we may come boldly to the throne of God to ask what we will of him. That includes forgiveness. Especially forgiveness. If God can speak to a priest why can't he speak directly to me? Is a priest holier than a lay person? If so how then? How do you know that the priest you are confessing to is not free of sin and that your prayers are not getting through? I am not asking, speaking anything to be rude. I am simply speaking from my heart.

By the way...sometime I might share my thoughts about "hell fire" if you feel it won't be too controversial for this forum.

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[> [> [> [> [> and clarification -- Catie, 17:43:49 11/04/07 Sun [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Although the term "saved" is not used, I do believe one can know their sins are forgiven. We can have fellowship with God himself when we have confessed sins and knowingly, choose to turn our back on it. It is a daily process of asking God to renew our strength as temptations come daily also. But I believe a Christian can live by faith, knowing their confession of sin has been accepted. If God knows the number of hairs on our head, how much more can he see the inside, intention of our hearts. I can KNOW that I have a place with him someday when I die If I live my life to reflect his life. And I don't have to worry about being "good enough" because within myself I am not, never would be. I am born into Adam's sin. But when God sees me now he sees his son's blood across the door post of my heart. Yes I can know that I have salvation.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- Joan, 20:05:08 11/04/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I'm short on time right now--heading off to bed--so I'll answer the easiest question--the one with the shortest answer--first.

"How do you know that the priest you are confessing to is not free of sin..."

It doesn't matter. Sins are forgiven by the power of God. No person is perfect, including priests. They might be holier than some and less holy than others. A priest can be living in mortal sin, and the Sacraments are still valid. The Sacraments aren't through the priest's own power or his goodness.

I'll get more into Confession as a sacrament tomorrow.

I'd love to read about your "hell fire". Controversy? We can handle it here. :-)

"Yes I can know that I have salvation."

I believe that we have a chance at salvation, if I persevere to the very end. I think it's Paul who says that he worries about working to help others but may himself lose out in the end. If Paul wasn't certain that he was "saved", then I don't feel comfortable being so sure myself. That little thing, free will, is always present. God invites us to follow him, but there is no guarantee that we will persist until the very end. Many things can happen in a lifetime.

After I wrote the above, I reread your post. "I can KNOW that I have a place with him someday when I die If I live my life to reflect his life"

It sounds like we actually agree. "If I live my life..." We can know that salvation is offered. And we can know what we need to do, yes do. What we can't know is the future. We have to persevere to the very end.

One more quick note. :-) We say a general confession at church every Sunday--not in the Confessional. We're required to "go to Confession" once a year and before we receive Communion again if we are guilty of an unconfessed mortal sin.

Joan
Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- Joan, 04:17:39 11/10/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Thirdly, you speak of 'free will' Joan. I have a 100 questions for that but will settle for a couple. First of all, what choice does a baby have to be baptized and what is the sig'nce of that? Where is free will there? It seems mostly ceremonial to me, albeit a wonderful symbolic gesture."

Well, since you say that you were a Catholic once, and that you still appreciate that education, I won't treat you like you're stupid, since you already know the answer to those questions. "Symbolic gesture" indeed. lol

"And if God is all-knowing and omni-present how can he not know who will be 'saved' and who will be headed in the other direction? If you don't have a direct answer for that, I will understand, given that Christendom has been debated that for over 500 yrs now. "

Of course he knows, because he exists outside of what we call "time". That should never mean to anyone that their future is predetermined. Free will determines what will become of us. We may be dirty rotten scoundrels for most of our lives, but turn to God in later life. Or, we may be pretty good people for years, only to turn away from God forever.

You may know someone's life story--Abe Lincoln's, for example. But does that mean his "story" was predetermined, that his free will to act had nothing to do with the outcome of his life? Hardly. God knows how things will be, simply because he exists outside of our "time" constraints. He is the uncaused cause. He always was and alwas will be. God simply is.

How does that mean that we have no free will, or that our free will has nothing to do with possibility?

Are you saying that someone's free will has nothing to do with anything? That the free will to say yes to God is meaningless? What then of the idea that God invites us to come to him, but doesn't demand it?

And would a loving God choose to damn some people just, apparently, for the fun of it? If free will were meaningless, then why would God not choose, to predetermine, that all of his creation be "saved"?

The only logical answer is free will. God invites us to follow him, but he doesn't force us. He doesn't predetermine who will be saved. He knows, because he exists outside of our "time", but he surely doesn't damn some and save others, as if he were a cruel chessmaster playing with his pieces for sport.

If we believe that God wants all of us to be united with Him in Heaven forever, then he could never predetermine that some of us could never say "yes" to his invitation. In that case, He would not truly want all of us to be "saved".

Still, though God knows the outcome, we can't know that, unless we say that we can tell fortunes about the future. That, I'm pretty sure, is probably not a Christians doctine in any denomination. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> This should be under Phil's response. -- Joan, 02:24:40 11/11/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

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[> [> [> [> [>

Re: Yes, I agree with much of this... -- Phil, 20:20:57 11/04/07 Sun [1] (71-223-21-99.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.21.99)

But I always felt that as a Catholic youngster, much of my contact with God was thru the sacraments, man-made rules, priests and the physical Church who had some 'mystical power' to act as an intermediary btwn myself and God. That would include the forgiveness of sins.

When I was saved some 20 yrs ago, I delighted in my personal relationship with God and the fellowship I rcvd with other like-minded Christians. Altho I'm sounding critical, I'm still thankful for my Catholic education, as much of it remains in the realm of what I still believe. Thus, doctrinally, I still find many of the Church's teachings and policies sound.

Thirdly, you speak of 'free will' Joan. I have a 100 questions for that but will settle for a couple. First of all, what choice does a baby have to be baptized and what is the sig'nce of that? Where is free will there? It seems mostly ceremonial to me, albeit a wonderful symbolic gesture. And if God is all-knowing and omni-present how can he not know who will be 'saved' and who will be headed in the other direction? If you don't have a direct answer for that, I will understand, given that Christendom has been debated that for over 500 yrs now. Nevertheless, I anxiously await your answer...

Finally, I have to re-iterate that Catie is right. There is a division w/in Prot'sm itself as to what the concept of 'saved' means. What I stated was just my belief, but there are many who hold the same opinion as me. And I'm not 'stuck' on anything Joan, having been grounded both in Catholicsm and Prot'sm teachings and thought. LoL. That was rather condescending Dear, but you're forgiven. See how ez it it! LoL

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from cool AZ

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