Re: Does what you do count? -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 03:40:39 07/28/07 Sat
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: Re: Does what you do count?
In reply to: Catie 's message, "Re: Does what you do count?" on 10:57:52 07/24/07 Tue

I'm trying to figure out how someone can know that he is saved. Some say that they are saved when they are baptized and that once they're saved, they can't lose that salvation.

What I can't figure out is what about the sins they commit after their baptism. That's why I wonder if they're confessing to all future sins before they're baptized.

Could someone who raped and killed 12 women and teens, and who isn't repentant, enter Heaven? If he were baptized before the crimes, he would be saved, according to some.

That's what I don't get. God does say that we have to pay for our sins (to the last farthing--now that's not the right word, but something like that.), and we know that we first have to be sorry for our sins for God to forgive us.

I wonder how people who beleive in "once saved, always saved" deal with a situation like that theologically. (sp?)
If the person commits a terrible crime and isn't sorry for it, even until death, how can anyone say that he is saved?

IMO, Baptism takes away the stain of original sin, but it doesn't take away our tendency to commit actual sins. So, if sinners need forgiveness to enter Heaven, then they need it continually. If to recieve forgivenes, they have to be truly sorry, there is no way to say that anyone is saved. As the Bible says, we have to work at it until we die. The Bible also tells us to be careful about thinking that we have it made. Those who are arrogant like that may fall.

Anyway, that's why I mentioned asking forgiveness for future sins. How else could anyone, without forgiveness for all future sins, whether they are truly repentant or not, know for sure that they will be saved in the end.

No one knows the future. Can anyone know that they will always be perfectly, truly sorry for every sin that they commit? Can they ever be sure that they won't commit a very serious sin that, without repentance and a good Confession, will seperate them from God?

No one can ever know what will happen in the future, so the Bible tells us to be ever vigilant.

Joan

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[> [> [> Re: Does what you do count? -- Catie, 09:29:20 07/29/07 Sun [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)

I think the term "saved" is used inappropriately. Personally, I don't use that term. I agree. We aren't "saved" until the end, until we see ourselves standing beside Christ in heaven. :)

My opnion, baptising is an outward declaration of our faith. It doesn't get us to heaven. It doesn't afford us eternal salvation. The blood of Christ does that. We do it out of obedience to God's word. But it is not the thing that "gets" us to heaven.

My dad is a DEVOUT Baptist and I have had the 'once saved' discussion a few times with him. After speaking with him at length, trying to understand his reasoning, I concluded it can boil down to terminology. (I think) He,(Baptist) believes if someone is "sinning" then they were never truly saved. He says if you have to continually ask for forgiveness then you are saying it wasn't good enough to "take" the first time. He uses that scripture verse in the New Testament, "No man can pluck you out of my hand". Okay, In that I can see his point. But I do believe folks can choose to turn away from God. The bible speaks of backsliding. A backslider is mentioned in the new testament as one who does not merit a place in heaven. Scripture teaches us it is better to never know God's mercy than to experience it and to turn away from it.

As for asking forgivness, I belive sin must be confessed (to God). He doesn't remember our sins once we have asked for his forgiveness. He doesn't beat us over the head with it. Of course if we break the law here on earth, he forgives us, but we must pay a penalty. Christ said to render unto God the things that are his and unto Caesar's the things which are his. In other words, be a law-abiding citizen. We move about in the fullness of his grace. Only in his grace do we find the strength to avoid sin.

How can I ask forgiveness for something I haven't done? Christ will not see that sin if I have grace applied to my heart. I can ask him to keep me vigilent. To guide me and help me not to sin. If I am constantly asking forgivness of future sins where does the trust in his grace come in to play? As a Christian I don't need live in fear of constantly offending God. He is a just God and looks upon the heart. That doesn't give me Carte Blanch to do whatever I want. I must make a conscious effort to always be obedient unto God's word and then he aids me in doing right. I am not to live in fear of the next move so to speak. Certainly I can't ask forgiveness if the sin isn't there. When he looks on me he sees grace applied to my heart, he sees his mercy. Scripture tells us that if we commit our ways unto the Lord our thoughts shall be established. Also "Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday." (Psalms)

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[> [> [> [> Can it be that we agree? -- Joan, 11:31:36 07/29/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

We don't agree on Baptism, but we agree on sin and assured (lack of) salvation.

If we always have the ability to turn away from God, no one can ever be assured that he is saved.

"(I think) He,(Baptist) believes if someone is "sinning" then they were never truly saved. He says if you have to continually ask for forgiveness then you are saying it wasn't good enough to "take" the first time"

That, respectfully, doesn't make sense to me. Everyone sins, if not in what you do, they in what you haven't done. If not in what you've said, then in what you've thought. Maybe your action *looked* honorable to anyone looking at it from the outside, but your true motivation is sinful.

Who among us isn't a sinner? Who lives their entire life, even if they only live a year, without sinning?

It's not that those who confess their sins think that the first Confession didn't take place. We aren't confessing the same sin (instance of sin) continuously. We're confession new occasions of sin. It might be the same kind of sin (searing, missing church), if we have a problem w/ one kind of sin, but we're confessing because we've done it again, not because we confessed it before and don't belive that God's forgiveness "stuck".

And that's what makes me wonder about asking for forgiveness in advance. Do people who beleive as your father does believe that they actually don't sin?! I don't think so. I think that they think that once they've confessed to being a sinner, it covers all future sins.

What's your take on it.

IMO, you can't confess ahead of time. That implies that you do intend to sin again, and that would make that confession invalid in the first place. You can't confess and be forgiven if while confessing you plan to keep on sinning.

That brings up one complaint about Catholicism that we hear all the time. That Catholics think they can go to Confession and keep right on doing the same thing. In reality, a sacrmental confession involves a full examination of conscious first. When we go to Confession, we get to the chruch early to kneel and pray and to really think about what we need to confess to God. Confession involves the honest effort to not commit that sin again.

So, someone who is living with a boyfriend can't confess her sin and go to Communion, if she intends to go home to her boyfriend. That isn't a "good confession".

And, because we (both of us) don't agree w/ confessing in advance, she's not "covered" for living w/ the boyfriend in the future--she's not forgiven for continuing to sin.

And that's what I don't get about the thinking that you can be assured of your salvation. Do they think that they are "covered" by whatever confessions they've made in the past? Do they think their actions count? Is it enough to merely say "I believe"? Don't their sins matter? Don't they know that they do?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Joan -- Catie, 08:49:26 07/30/07 Mon [1] (h166.243.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.243.166)

I think the "once saved..." theory must include any future sins. I'm not sure though. I do know that my dad said that he has asked forgiveness since he was "Saved" because I've asked him. So it's confusing to me. ??? I don't know their theology enough to really comment I guess. I don't mean to do that denomination an injustice by my lack of knowledge.

My brain is too worn today to give it much thought to be honest. I need to rest a bit and I'll hopefully be back around the end of the week sometime. With bells on and raring to go! :)

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