Is the Bible the only source of authority? -- Catholic Friends Forum

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Date Posted: 03:45:17 08/08/07 Wed
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: Is the Bible the only source of authority?

Is the Bible the only thing God left us on Earth? If you believe that the Bible is the only source of authority, where does it say so--that the Bible should be the only source of authority--in the Bible? If it's not in the Bible, on whose authority do you accept that the Bible is the only authority?

Joan

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[> Re: Is the Bible the only source of authority? -- catie, 06:13:26 08/08/07 Wed [1] (h32.237.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.237.32)

I believe exclusively that the bible (old and new testament) is the only source of authority. I think the Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. Why would I need anything else? It answers ALL questions regarding my beginning, my present, and my ending. The scrpitures itself warn against accepting anything outside the bible. I choose to believe what I read in the bible, accept it on faith that it is truth and although all scripture is truth, all scripture should not be taken literally. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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[> [> Re: Is the Bible the only source of authority? -- Joan, 13:11:09 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"The scrpitures itself warn against accepting anything outside the bible. "

Anything, or only certain things? Can you point me in the right direction? :-) Where can I find that in the Bible?

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[> [> [> Re: Is the Bible the only source of authority? -- Catie, 05:16:32 08/13/07 Mon [1] (h32.237.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.237.32)

Joan, yes. I am at a loss for the scripture that gives indication we should accept no other source but I will try my best to find it. I think it might be in Thessalonians. But I'm not sure about that.

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[> Catholics also have the pope! -- Neysa, 10:46:46 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inikfh.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.241)

Another source of authority besides the bible is the apostolic succession, in the papal infallibility of the teachings of the pope.

Just like my personal belief that since the bible was written by man it can contain errors. The pope is human and makes mistakes, even though the Catholic Church teaches about papal infallibility, the pope and his bishops, are not without error.

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[> [> Re: The problem with that argument Neysa... -- Phil, 12:24:32 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

...is that almost nobody accepts that, incl Catholics. A recent survey indicated that only abt 20% of Catholics accept the concept of Papal Infallibility. When I was growing up, there was talk of creating an American Catholic Church, with only very loose ties to Rome. That made a lot of sense to me, even as a boy.

History has also shown a multitude of flaws in that infalibility assertion, the most obvious example being the Borja Popes. They used the Papacy to advance their own family fortunes with lil' concern for spirtitual matters. The idea that whatever they stated, spiritual or otherwise, was infallible is to me, weak at best. There are plenty other historical examples that I could cite, but that would not pro'bly not sit well here.

Finally, some of what the Church could be categorized as reform. While it was often done to root out corruption in the Middle Ages, it was also done for PRACTICAL good. Yet, these policies lacked any Biblical foundation. I cannot accept that its the result of some kind of Holy decision.

Thus, the concept of Papal Infallibility is surely 1 of the weakest claims that Catholics make. I've watched priests cringe as they defend that concept. I wonder how many of them accept this concept. Most defend it half-heartedly and try to move on to another topic. And most Catholics don't even believe it, Neysa.

So to compare the Pope with Biblical teachings is a bit of a stretch if you ask me. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I feel very strongly abt this, and have historical and Biblical support to make my claim.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> Phil ............................. -- Neysa, 12:29:18 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inika8.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.72)

I stated it because even though most Catholics like myself, don't believe it. It is still a teaching of the Catholic Church.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Oops, sorry Dear...I must've missed that!!!. -- Phil from AZ, 12:34:32 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

I try to read posts thoroughly so I don't overdo it. Unfort'ly, this is 1 of those exceptions. Indeed, what you contend is true: SOME Catholics believe in Papal Infallibility, and accept it as a source for teaching.

Sorry. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from humble AZ

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[> [> [> [> I hit "SEND" too soon............. -- Neysa, 12:36:54 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inika8.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.72)

I was just stating that he Catholic Church believe's in two source's of authority. Even if the 2nd is a weak argument.

1) Bible

2) Pope......even though I and most Catholics do not believe in papal infallibility. It is still a teaching of the Catholic Church.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Fair enough Neysa....sorry I misunderstood -- Phil, 12:49:31 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

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[> [> [> I'm not sure that you understand what Papal Infallibility actually is. -- Joan, 13:05:18 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

That all popes weren't good, and that all popes aren't all good has nothing to do w/ papal infallibility. No one is denying that they are human or that they don't make mistakes and commit sins.

What is your take on papal infallibility? How do you define it--even if you don't believe in it?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> Wait. That's not what I meant to say. -- Joan, 13:15:28 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

To clarify-

"No one is denying that they are human or that they don't make mistakes and commit sins."

No one is denying that they are human. They aren't saying that they don't make mistakes and commit sins.

OK, that's better. :-)

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[> [> [> Re: The problem with that argument Neysa... -- Joan, 13:12:21 08/08/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Finally, some of what the Church could be categorized as reform. While it was often done to root out corruption in the Middle Ages, it was also done for PRACTICAL good. Yet, these policies lacked any Biblical foundation. I cannot accept that its the result of some kind of Holy decision."

Can you give a specific example?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> Re: That's a piece of cake, Joan... -- Phil from AZ, 14:53:51 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

Just give me a couple days to put together my argument. You may be surprised. While I entered college as a Pre-Law major, my first love was Euro Medieval History. I also studied in London for the better part of a yr, and got first-hand background on a lot of this stuff. Plz be patient, tho, as I must get back to my wrtg. I get mad at myself when I dont get my 'quota' done for the day.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> Phil.....My husband and I are heading back to London........ -- Barb, 15:50:51 08/08/07 Wed [1] (clgrtnt7-port-29.dial.telus.net/161.184.52.29)

at the end of September, for the first time in 14 long years! What are some of your favourite landmarks there?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I wouldnt stay in London at all. LoL -- Phil from AZ, 17:31:56 08/08/07 Wed [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

London is not what it was when I studied there a while back. I'd actually recommend that you stay in a small town near a train stn and go into the City when you please. Maybe somewhere along the south coast...like Hastings or Battle. But I understd if you alrdy have reservations.

I do recommend the sites that I called 'the run' in my story entitled Native American in London: West'ster Abbey/Big Ben, Buck'ham Palace and the Tower. As the yrs went on, tho, I've enjoyed returning Mdm T's the most. They change the exhibits often. Of cse, there's the Brit Museum. I like the sections on Egyptology there. Dickens House on Doughty Street is a site I recommend for visitors who've been there b4 and are looking for something new. I'm a an admirer of Chas Dickens and I love going there.

Some lesser known sites include the musuem in Battle, where the Battle of Hastings was really fought. Warwick Castle is also a favorite of mine. My absolute favorite is Stratford-upon-Avon. Its a wonderful lil' town where you may be able to get tickets to see an actual Shakespearean play. Great stuff!

I also love Salibury, site of the famous cathedral. They have a site called Sarum there on the outskirts of town, an old castle. But you can also get to Stonehenge and/or Avebury from there. Finally, there's the univ towns of Oxford and Cambridge. I'm not much for beer anymore, but Oxfd has a tradition of what we'd call home brews, beers that are brewed locally. Check it out, even if you don't indulge much.

Just a reminder: practically all of these places have their own websites in this day and age. Well, that should do it for now. More details as requested. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Phil, this is our 7th trip to London, dear! .................... -- Barb, 08:21:08 08/09/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt7-port-76.dial.telus.net/161.184.52.76)

Married there in 1970. Ian's family is in southern Scotland. We've been to every place you mentioned and alot more...you can well imagine! Nothing but nothing will stop us from staying in London, in South Kensington. Great place to walk from...Knightsbridge and all that. Underground very accessible. London's our favourite city on the planet. We've travelled from northern most Scotland to Lands End and many places inbetween. This time we'll concentrate mainly on Scotland, the Lake District, (another favourite)London and off East Cowes to Osborne House on the Isle of Wight where Queen Victoria and family lived some of the time. I've always been a huge fan of hers and have yet to see that one residence. We've been through Buckingham Palace and Balmoral though.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Sounds like y'got a handle on it, then.... -- Phil from AZ, 08:40:35 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

I also focus on Scotland these days. I like Chester too, which gives me ez access to Northern Wales.

Phil

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I like Chester too. Lost Ian on the wall one time! lol :-# -- Barb, 09:29:57 08/09/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt9-port-110.dial.telus.net/161.184.54.110)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:Hmm, I'm wondering if... -- Phil from AZ, 13:00:28 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

...it happened by accident or you ditched him to have a look in those lil' shops we all love in Chester? LoL, I was just kiddin' Barb.

It really is a wonderful exp'ce walking on the wall. I did it late early in the eve, right b4 sunset, trying to imagine what it must've been like back in the day. It was great! Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Those little Chester shops...... -- Barb, 13:28:24 08/09/07 Thu [1] (clgrtnt3-port-41.dial.telus.net/161.184.44.41)

are great but we had Burger King hamburgers in Chester which were repulsive! Terrible meat, and fat rolling over the sides like a waterfall. An American chain...British style...enough said!
I found Ian through my camera lens, walking away from me. Nice photo of the wall though. lol

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm afraid I have to agree on a couple counts... -- Phil, 14:05:05 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

Actually, Burger King was owned by a PLC based in the UK, but now is its own company, I think. I considered investing in BK once, but was chased off because it was owned by that convoluted multi-nat'l I had never heard of b4.

Instd, I ended up investing in McD's, Bob Evans and YUM brands: a neat combo of Taco Bell, KFC and Pizza Hut. Formerly, the latter were part of Pepsi, but spun off. I still sold all of the above (except Pepsi) during the recent mkt upturn.

Back to the topic...I try to avoid 'burger joints' abroad. The quality of beef is very poor by our stds: its bland and stringy. When I lived in Ireland, I ordered the chicken, tortellini or something like that...almost never the beef.

When I lived in Korea, my girl friend liked to go to BK. Even the fries and ketsup tasted funny there! I prefered the tradional food there, while she said that she was tired of the native dishes...and wanted to eat in American style restaurants. Ironic?

In Paris you can get wine in McD's and beer in Germany. At least you cant complain about what they serve w/ it. LoL. Fort'ly, tho, you dont hear the locals saying.

"Hey man, let's go get drunk...at McDs!" LoL

I am in agreement with you on beef. Its mediocre abroad and I dont usually order it. The 1 excptn is Denmk. They have great beef there! Oh, and dont order hot dogs in Europe either. They're nasty! Yuck! LoL

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from beefy AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:Further analysis reveals.... -- Phil from AZ, 14:12:48 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

Burger King is its own company now and trades under the symbol BKC. Its abt $24 a share. Not that I'm recommending that any1 buy it. LoL

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Phil, Faith Based Funds........ -- Neysa, 15:59:48 08/09/07 Thu [1] (user-2inikc0.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.128)

What is your opinion about Faith Based Funds ? You seem to know a lot about stocks. The ones you mentioned are all individual stocks. I am asking about mutual funds.

I know that there is a Catholic fund called, Ave Maria Funds.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My opinion is... -- Phil from AZ, 16:44:39 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

...that they are strong on faith and poor in performance. I found only 1 glowing review for Ave Maria Fund. Every1 else rates it as an avg fund in the category. Given that Faith Based Funds are generally laggards to the mkt, that is not very encouraging.

I discvrd something striking abt the stock mkt some yrs ago. Did you know that there are more mutual funds (MFs) than stocks that trade on the mkt? Given today's liquidity, when you limit yourself to a narrow strategy its kind of like the dealer taking all the aces and face cards out of deck when he deals your poker hand. Your chances of doing well are very poor, right?

In fact, I recommend a fund that offers as many oppor'ties as possible. That increases your chances for success over the long-term. In time, as your knowledge of the mkt icnreases, you may wish to get into technology, health care or defense/aerospace fund(s)...depending on the mkt and your knowledge of the category. E.g.I bought an aerospace/defense fund after 9/11...and it has soared!

Keep in mind, that this is just an opinion, albeit, I believe an informed one. Hope I answered your question Neysa. Take care, God Bless,

Phil from arid AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, Phil ! -- Neysa, 18:11:54 08/09/07 Thu [1] (user-38lci8m.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.22)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: You're welcome Neysa! -- Phil, 23:04:20 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

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[> [> [> [> Example....... -- Neysa, 15:11:54 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inik17.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.39)

papal infallibility would be Pope Pius IX definition of the Assumption of Mary. As Catholics we must accept Pius IX, teaching on the subject as absolute truth...without error.

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[> [> [> [> Re: The problem with that argument Neysa... -- Joan, 05:22:46 08/09/07 Thu [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

""Finally, some of what the Church could be categorized as reform. While it was often done to root out corruption in the Middle Ages, it was also done for PRACTICAL good. Yet, these policies lacked any Biblical foundation. I cannot accept that its the result of some kind of Holy decision."

Can you give a specific example? "

"papal infallibility would be Pope Pius IX definition of the Assumption of Mary. As Catholics we must accept Pius IX, teaching on the subject as absolute truth...without error."

Right, but how is the Assumption anti-biblical?

Joan

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[> Joan....... -- Neysa, 13:48:39 08/08/07 Wed [1] (user-2inik17.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.39)

I am not talking about sin. Many think that papal infallibility means that the pope cannot sin! We all know the pope sins. As have all the past popes as well. That is NOT what I am talking about when I talk about papal infallibility.

When I talk about papal infallibility I'm talking about the teachings of the faith by the pope. It means that the pope's teachings ( dogma) are without error. That they are the absolute truth. It is believed that the pope receives divine enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. I say that the pope cannot always be correct and his teachings are not the absolute truth. There can be error in his teachings. Even though he does get help from the Holy Spirit. The pope is only human. No human is without error.

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[> [> Re: Joan....... -- Joan, 05:27:25 08/09/07 Thu [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Neysa, I'm beginning to think that you aren't really Catholic. :-) Are you thinking of switching denominations? There seems to be very little in Catholicism that you actually believe.

It's not just the Pope that makes these ex cathedra statements. A lot of people think that the Pope decides something and so it's so. Actually, several bishops work together with the Pope on these things.

Joan

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[> [> [> Re: Joan....... -- Neysa, 09:30:59 08/09/07 Thu [1] (user-38lci5j.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.72.179)

There are a lot of Catholics who do not believe in everything the Cathoilic Church teaches, but that doesn't mean they have to go and join another denomination. I was born a Catholic, and I will die a Catholic ! I am not leaving my Catholic Church, even though I don't believe in everything it teaches.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Joan....... -- Joan, 04:18:31 08/11/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I'm not asking to challenge you but to understand.

There seems to be *very* little in Catholicism that you actually do believe. What is it about Catholicism that attracts you? (other than being born Catholic)

Joan

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[> [> Re: Joan, I'm afraid that's typical... -- Phil from AZ, 06:45:37 08/09/07 Thu [1] (71-223-15-110.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.15.110)

...of nearly all Catholics I know. They state that they are Catholic and then proceed to claim that they don't believe in Papal Infall'ty, the Church's stance on birth control, the composition of the College of Cardinals, that priests should not be married, and on and on. Yet they continue to belong to the Catholic Church.

This is a theme that I find all too common, and Neysa's stance on Papal Infall'ty is merely typical of what the vast maj'ty of English-speaking Catholics believe. She's just being honest by stating it, that's all.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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Joan, what attracts me to Catholicism...... -- Neysa, 10:16:58 08/11/07 Sat [1] (user-38lci7f.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.72.239)

first and formost is the Mass. I've always loved the Mass, and loved going to Mass. I haven't gone in a while to Mass, because with my mom's Alzheimer's, she cannot go anymore. I now take care of my mom 24/7.

I always think when I am at Mass, I am so blessed and very lucky to have been born a Catholic. There is nothing as beautiful as the Mass. When I am there I can really feel the presence of God.

I also feel blessed for having been brought up in both the Eastern and Western rite of the Catholic Church. Just like Pope John Paul II, said the Catholic Church is made up of two lungs (East and the West).

My upbringing was very Catholic. We were a very devout Catholic Family. Church every Sunday, and holy days, Catholic school education, etc....

Both my parents came from large families. As did my dad's parents. All my relatives were Catholic, and the majority of the people in my neighborhood.

My parents were very involved in the church. There were always priests and nuns at our home.

No one in the family ever left the Catholic Church.

I have been to Protestant services. In Brownies (Girl Scouts) the troop I belonged to was sponsored by a Protestant Church. Once a year I attended services there with my parents when they had Girl Scout Sunday.

In collge I once attended an Assembly of God Church, service because my friend didn't have anyone to go with that Sunday.

I once also attended an Anglican service in England.

I am typical of many cradle Catholics, plus what the Catholic Church calls ( Cafeteria Catholic) which means I pick and choose what I like, but still stay Catholic. That was stated on a program on EWTN.

If you notice on EWTN, a lot of the people on there are either converts to Catholism, or left the Catholic Church for some other denomination. Now, have returned to the Catholic Church.

I also feel that at birth I was given the gift of Catholicism. I was given an emergency baptism a few minutes after I was born by: Fr. Hubert Kealy.

I never, ever, not even once, thought about leaving the Catholic Church. I never will! I am proud to say that I am Catholic.

I will say this : I was very angry and hurt by your statement. To put it mildly down right insulted! To say that you don't think I'm Catholic and to ask if I am thinking about joining another denomination was down right hurtful.

Joan, I didn't get to meet Pope John Paul II, twice by not being considered a good Catholic. Let alone to be invited to attend a private Mass in his chapel. My pastor and the Archbishop, had to state that I was a good Catholic. (No, I didn't give some large donation to the chuch)

It took me almost two years in order to make the right connections at the Vatican in order to present my children's book to His Holiness. Once, inside the walls of the Vatican, it is not a very friendly place. It is enough to make you scratch your head and really question about being Catholic. I never met such horrible and rude bishops,and monsignors in my life. After all that I am still Catholic.

I will always remain a Catholic, I can NEVER leave!!!

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[> [> Re: Joan, what attracts me to Catholicism...... -- Joan, 11:13:30 08/11/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Have you studied the doctrines that you disagree with? I used to disagree w/ a few things, but after studying them, I see the wisdom of the teaching.

I'm sorry that you felt insulted by my question. It wasn't meant to challenge your cathlocity.

Is there something other than the Mass that attracts you to the faith? (I realize that that is the center.)

The time I spent in the Methodist church was socially great, but the Methodist church lacked a lot of what I believed. First, and most important, they don't have a Mass--transubstantaion of the bread and wine. Their service doesn't compare, theologically, to the Catholic liturgy.

But I also missed the communion of saints. Without the authority of apostolic succession, how was I supposed to accept the M's teachings. So I accepted what matched the CC and questioned the rest.

There were other Catholic things I missed, but you get the idea. Once I found a parish that had a "nice" priest, I was much happier.

But that's the kind of thing I was asking you about--what you are drawn to about the CC. I asked because you don't believe in many of the teachings that have been brought up here.

And I asked about your leaving the church for another denomination, because that's what many "cafeteria catholics" do after a while. They find a church that doens't teach the doctrines that are hard for them to accept.

I'm really sorry that you took it as an attack (I think it came across that way. ) I added the :-) to indicate that the statement wasn't to be taken literally or seriously, but obvioulsy I should have phrased it differently.

I know that many Catholics don't accept some of the doctrines, so I was wondering what draws you to the faith. As adults, we constantly reaffirm our faith. We're not here because our parents brought us to church as children. We're here because we choose to be here. We were confirmed as young adults, and we renew every Easter at Mass. We recite the creed every week at Mass. We have the Eucharist at Mass, saying "Amen". So that's why I asked what draws (continues to draw) you to the faith. I don't think any adult is a Catholic simply out of habit.

Joan

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[> [> [> Joan,................... -- Neysa, 12:37:59 08/11/07 Sat [1] (user-38lciiq.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.74.90)

I guess I am an adult who is Catholic simply out of habit. I know a lot of other people who are that way as well.

Deep down when I really think about it, I was brought up that you are Catholic...you MUST remain a Catholic.

When I was in 4th or 5th grade. I had a friend who was Baptist, who moved into my neighborhood, which was very Catholic. One day at recess I said to a classmate, that I was going to turn Baptist. I didn't see the nun, standing near us. Sister, heard what I said. I never saw anyone become so enraged. She looked like she could spit fire. She came up into my face, and said you are Catholic and Catholic you are to remain. She even was going to send me over to the priest.

I never questioned doctrine and said well I believe this and I don't believe that. Well, there is more that I don't believe in so I'll leave the Catholic Church. Those nuns still have a hold on my psyche. I would feel so guilty if I left the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is like a magnet it has its hold on me. As I said I attended Protestant services. I didn't feel the presence of God and the warm peaceful feeling I get from the Mass.

Even though I attended Protestant services, and was brought up to respect other religions. I am going to be very honest here. My parents would have disowned me if I left the Catholic Church!

As I mentioned my mom is Eastern Catholic, and my dad ( deceased) Western (Latin rite) Catholic. Although it was wonderful being brought up in both. It also presented a problem. You cannot belong to both. Meaning, I could not belong to a Latin Rite and an Eastern Rite Church, it is not allowed. I had to choose. Having two different rites within my Catholic upbrining at times was confusing enough.

I know I didn't answer your question. That is simply because I cannot. I never delved deeply into doctines, etc... For me it is simply I believe what I believe in Catholicism even without studying it in depth. Baptism made me a Catholic, and Catholic I remain. I know that is a very poor;vague statement. I almost sound like my uneducated great grandparents when I make such a statement. It is also fear and even perhaps superstition that holds me so tightly to the Catholic Church. It really holds me. The superstition part....I can still see my second grade teacher Sister Theodora, standing in front of the class saying : "children you were given the greatest gift, you were baptized Catholic. To leave the Catholic Church is a mortal sin. Children we all know that if you die with a mortal sin you are going to hell."

As an educated person, I do not believe in this statement. However, the part about leaving the Catholic Church, makes me tremble. That second grade nun and all the nuns that I had in my twelve years who preached the same statement, planted it into my mind. Even, if I would study the doctrines in depth and still come out not in agreement with them. I still would remain a Catholic.

Lastly, I didn't know that :-) meant not to be taken literally or seriously.

Neysa

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[> [> [> [> Re: Joan,................... -- Joan, 03:41:11 08/12/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Lastly, I didn't know that :-) meant not to be taken literally or seriously."

I use it that way, but I'm beginning to think that no one else sees it that way. And since we can't hear each other speaking, so you can't hear that I'm not serious, I'll have to change the way I write.

Joan

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[> Follow up -- Neysa, 12:57:55 08/11/07 Sat [1] (user-38lciiq.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.74.90)

I made a statement saying that I never thought about leaving the Catholic Church, that statement is correct.

I said that in 4th or 5th grade I was going to be Baptist. That was a mistake. What I said in 4th or 5th grade was that I wondered if it would be alright to turn Baptist ? When I was young I didn't understand why some people were Catholics and others were Protestants. When I would ask, no one answered my question. Most would answer that is just the way it is. Once, I asked the priest that question in confession. He told me I was never to think about the subject again. That it was a sin!

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[> [> Neysa..................... -- Barb, 18:16:00 08/11/07 Sat [1] (clgrtnt6-port-177.dial.telus.net/161.184.50.177)

I don't think it is a sin to have had such thoughts. We are human beings and we cannot help but to think "what if" or wonder about how it is for others. There is no shame in that. I think we question things to the very last day of our lives. As long as we think we have made the right choices with our lives as a whole, we should not feel like sinners. You did not sin...you only "thought and wondered," and you are only human and it is a human trait to think and wonder. It is an intelligent thing to do! You cannot turn off your mind or not see the world around you. You know who you are and how you stand and that is what is important at the end of the day.

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[> [> [> Thanks Barb........ -- Neysa, 21:12:40 08/11/07 Sat [1] (user-2inikd6.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.166)

You also have to understand the thinking behind the very old time Catholics. This priest I went to confession to that would have been in 1977 or 1978, was old already. He was born and raised in the Ukraine. He was a priest, like his father, grandfather all the way back. (Ukrainian Catholic priests in Ukraine are allowed to marry). Infact, he fled the Ukraine when the Nazi's invaded his country.

He was from the old ways, very narrow minded ways. You don't even question about being a Catholic, and ask about other religions, it was considered a sin.

Example of narrow minded ways: My mother's friend who is in her late 70's, told me a story about her aunt. It was around 1917, and her aunt was 15 years old. Her aunt was Catholic. Her aunt was seen talking to a Protestant boy on the street corner by a neighbor. The neighbor told the girls mother. When the girl got home, her mother beat her because she was seen in public talking to a Protestant.

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[> [> [> [> I agree with Barb -- Joan, 04:00:23 08/12/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Only and idiot would never think. Of course people look at other religions with curiosity. That's natural.

I think the world (even the US) is very different than it was in the beginning of the 20th century. Especially in the U.S., it's expected that you'll think about your religion.

In the past if you were born Catholic, you were expected to stay Catholic. I think that most people don't take that as guaranteed now.

What's really sad is that many Catholics leave the faith over the propoganda that's spread by the anti-Catholics. There are many Catholic who are against this or that doctrine, and leave the CC over it, without ever realizing that what they think they know about the doctrine isn't true!

If they do know what the doctrine actually is, they don't know the reason is is what it is. So they beleive what's told to them by anti-Catholics. That's why I asked if you had studied the problematic doctrines. Sometimes that doctrine isn't as difficult to accept if you understand the reason behind it.

Anyway, I posted this to say that I agree 100% with Barb. If you hadn't thought about your religion, I'd think you were a little soft in the brain.

You say that you are Catholic out of habit, but your responses show me that you have thought a great deal about your religion. You said that remaining Catholic was drilled into your head, but you also said that you don't get the feeling of God's presence in other churches. I beleive that that's what keeps you Catholic--your sense that *your* decision to be Catholic is right. You sense the fullness of the faith in the Eucharist. :-)

I want to apologize again for sounding like I was challenging your faith. I will never, never, never use a :-) again to try to make a joke of something that could be taken to be mean if the :-) weren't there. 20 lashes for me. :-) Oops, I did it again. lol

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> I think............ -- Barb, 10:29:31 08/12/07 Sun [1] (clgrtnt3-port-187.dial.telus.net/161.184.44.187)

that when we step outside of our own church/temple and go to a service or 3 in another, then we begin to realize and appreciate the fullness of faith in others too. If one does not get the feeling of God's presence in other churches/temples
it is only because one has not allowed him/herself to experience what it is like for others where and how they pray. I have been to Catholic masses, other churches and synagogues, and I have learned that each has it's own truth I honour and appreciate that in all of them. One must not be closed minded...ever! If we do that, have alternate experiences, and we are still absolute in our own faith, then God's will be done! If our truth is in our own church/temple...then you have made the right choice for ourselves. :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Barb.................... -- Neysa, 10:53:01 08/12/07 Sun [1] (user-2inik89.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.9)

when I stated that I didn't feel God's presence in the Protestant Churches that I was in. I didn't mean that there was a coldness there. Infact, they were warm ,lovely services.

I meant in the "Catholic" way of the presence of God. In a Catholic Church there is a consecrated host in the tabernacle in every Catholic Church. There is a lit red votive candle, which means that the real presence of God,is there, I really feel God's presence when I walk into a Catholic Church.

The feeling one gets in the transubstantiaton during the Mass, is so powerful, and beautiful.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I did realize what you meant, Neysa.............. -- Barb, 12:18:28 08/12/07 Sun [1] (clgrtnt4-port-28.dial.telus.net/161.184.46.28)

and I appreciate that, and I believe totally in what you were saying. I was just adding another dimension to it. Putting a different spin on it sort of thing. In Synagogues there is the "Torah" and it is kept in a Holy place and taken out for services, which is powerful and beautiful too. :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Barb, I was in a synagogue once...... -- Neysa, 13:40:19 08/12/07 Sun [1] (user-2inik0v.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.80.31)

when I was 8 years old, but not for a service. Every Saturday morning I went for ballet lessons at the Trinity Lutheran Church in my hometown. The synagogue was a few doors down from the Lutheran Church. As we were walking past the synagogue we noticed that the doors were open. So, my mom and I walked in. Inside, was a gentleman that was a regular customer at my families restaurant. He was very kind, and gave my mom and I a tour.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Neysa............ -- Barb, 08:16:45 08/13/07 Mon [1] (clgrtnt6-port-3.dial.telus.net/161.184.50.3)

Did you find your "tour" of the Synagogue a little awesome, in a wondering way? When I enter a Church I get such a feeling. It is bigger than I and unknown to me. You must know what I mean.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yes Barb, I did !!! -- Neysa, 22:14:09 08/14/07 Tue [1] (user-38lcibm.dialup.mindspring.com/209.86.73.118)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I think............ -- Joan, 15:39:37 08/12/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

To echo what Neysa said, we were talking about the Eucharist. If you don't believe in it, you probably wouldn't feel anything "special" at a Catholic Mass. But if you do believe it, no other communion service compares.

It's not that we think other services have nothing going for them, it's that we beleive in the Eucharist as the real body and blood of Christ. When we go to another Christian church, we enjoy the readings and the sermon, but there is always that missing thing, the Eucharist.

The Eucharist, unlike in other Christian services, is the center of the Mass. Acutally it is the Mass. :-)

I think others don't always realize how important the Eucharist is. In other denominaitons, communion is a symbol. To Catholics, the Eucharist is in reality the body and blood of Christ. When the priest says "The body of Christ", he means it. When we say "Amen" in response, we mean it. :-)

The Eucharist isn't just another way of having a symbolic communion, so when we say that we don't feel God's presence, that's what we're talking about.

It's really not a bad thing to say, because no other Christian denomination claims that their communion is the actual body and blood of Christ. I'm not denying that they have the real presence in their communion, while they claim they do. They say they don't, and they claim that the Catholic Church also doesn't either. So it's really not a bad thing for a Catholic to say that they miss the feeling of God in the Eucharist when they visit other churches. It's the truth--even according to the other denominations. Of course, like I said, they don't think the Eucharist is the real body and blood either, so they probably think we're just nuts. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Joan..................Happy Birthday...... -- Neysa, 10:59:43 08/12/07 Sun [1] (user-2inik89.dialup.mindspring.com/165.121.81.9)

Thanks for the apology. I really appreciate it. Is today your birthday ? I thought I read a post somewhere that you said you were born on August 12th, and your sister a year later on August 13th.

If it is your birthday today. I want to wish you a VERY HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!! I hope it is WONDERFUL !!!

Neysa

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Happy, happy birthday, Joan! Are you 21......again? :-).......... -- Barb, 12:20:09 08/12/07 Sun [1] (clgrtnt4-port-28.dial.telus.net/161.184.46.28)

Celebrate well....and your sister, tomorrow. Will you be in touch to wish one another a happy day? :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Thank-you! -- Joan, 15:41:38 08/12/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

You guys have good memories. :-)

Bob and I went to a flea market near the beach today. Then we watched "Munich". It's a very good movie. Depressing though.

I'll call my sister tomorrow.

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Belated Happy Birthday Joan... -- Lynn, 12:13:29 08/15/07 Wed [1] (ip72-193-232-42.lv.lv.cox.net/72.193.232.42)

hope you had a great day!

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