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Date Posted: 05:06:48 11/04/07 Sun
Author: Joan
Author Host/IP: ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net / 68.0.253.131
Subject: Re: correction
In reply to: Catie 's message, "correction" on 17:51:08 10/30/07 Tue

"I think this where the Protestant and the Catholic differ- on the purpose/power of grace."

I believe that it's God's grace that gives up faith.

"Yes, faith without effort (works) is dead. We must live a Godly life as much as possible. And if we love God then we will automatically long to do that."

We have free will. We are always free to turn from God, and we do that every time we sin. No matter how small the sin seems to us, it is our turning away from God. I don't think there is anything automatic about it, though. We want to do good, but we also want to do what we want to do. The "work" we need to do is to be vigilant about thinking what God wants us to do. Our "work" is to be sure that our actions and thoughts are in line with what God wants us to do and think.

"It is God's spirit that draws us to God. The bible says NOBODY comes to the Father, (GOD) unless the Holy spirit draws him first."

We believe that we are given grace in Baptism.

"Then It is our faith that makes us reach out, believe him."

Again, we beleive that faith is a gift from God.

"Scripture teaches to each person is given a measure of faith. We can cultivate it and make it grow. The bible also says, Without faith it is impossible to please God. After we believe and receive, by faith, then it is grace that gives us salvation."

Agreed that we don't earn salvation. And that's where most Protestants get stuck. They believe that Catholics don't believe that it's by God's grace that we are what Protestants call "saved". We don't, however, believe that we are saved simply because we believe. Like the Bible says, faith without works is dead. A person might beleive in God, and has faith that God will save him, but he still might not be a good person in God's eyes. As I said above, people have free will. They might want to do good works, but that free will is a strong thing. Many times each of us (no one is perfect) has turned away from God. All of us believe. We all have faith. And yet all of us have turned from God. If we let that get out of hand, out sins may become so grave that without a good Confession, we will find ourselves paying the ultimate price. Hell is not filled only with non-believers, as some thing. It's also filled with those who believed and yet chose to turn away from God. Faith alone can't save you. Saying that you believe, and believing that you believe isn't enough. Someone with faith, someone who truly believes, may kill someone and not confess (either in Confession if Catholic or in prayer if not) that sin. What then?

I don't believe that someone who has faith is immune to sinning, or to committing "big" sins. Some see the actions of a person as a sign that they don't truly believe in God, because if they did believe they wouldn't commit these sins. I say, Hogwash. Everyone is capable of sinning. The proof--everyone sins. God didn't send his son to collect those who had perfect faith or who were perfect. In fact, he expressly said that those who thought they had great faith would be left out. Because they lied? No! They did have great faith, but their focus was off. They took their eyes off the prize, so to speak. Those people thought for sure that they had it right, and that the "lower people" didn't. They believed that they were secure. Big mistake. :-) That's the sin of presumption. Many, many Christians are guilty of that sin, too. They truly believe that they are doing it right. That they have it just right. That God will reward their "faith" with eternal salvation. They are so sure of this, that they believe that the case is settled. Because they believe, because they have "faith", they *know* that they will be going to Heaven. The sin of presumption. It didn't work for the Jews, and it won't work for Christians. Only God knows which of us will have eternal salvation or eternal damnation, and that because he exists outside of time (not because it's predetermined at birth).

"God will handle all the messy details we can't figure out. :-)"

And people sure do make life a mess, don't they? :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> I agree -- Catie, 17:31:59 11/04/07 Sun [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

I do believe some of what you say Joan, at least I understand where you are coming from. YES, indeed unconfessed sins can keep us out of heaven. If we willingly harbor sin we should not expect to enter into a sinless heaven. There will be those who think they are pious enough to get in to heaven -those folks are ones who did "works" to earn their way in. The scripture explains those are the ones who said, "God, did we do this, and this in your name?" Some folks truly believe they can "work" their way to heaven.

We don't use the term "saved" in my denomination either. Only in the end will we know who is "saved." It is a presumption indeed. However, I do believe, according to God's own word, one can know for sure if Christ is Lord in their heart and life and understand what it is to seek him first and place him above all else. One who does so then does it out of desire to fellowship with God, to love him, because he first loved us.

A new commandment Christ gave while on earth. That we love one another. Why? "By this shall all men know that you are of me, that you have love one for another." Perfected love casts out fear(doubt). If we LOVE God- I mean truly LOVE him, then we will long to live our lives as he planned for us and we can surely overcome any of the temptations of the world. That is scripture. SO we don't have to sweat it out wondering if we are "good" enough to be accepted. None are righteous, not one. Every child of God is so because they have come to the father willingly asking him to be their father. The flip side is they will reflect him in their life when they have him in their hearts.

If I confess a sin to a man, even a man who speaks God's word, then I have gotten that off my chest. "Confession is good for the soul". "Confess your sins one to another" "Bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ". But with all respect, the bible states only God (Christ)can absolve man of sin. How can a Catholic then be sure that he is forgiven if he confessed to a man and not God himself? With that thought I can understand where a Catholic would consider "A person might beleive in God, and has faith that God will save him, but he still might not be a good person in God's eyes." I, as a Christian could not depend upon a man, priest, or pastor, et al, to absolve me of sins that only diety has the authority to do so. When a Catholic confesses to his priest does he also pray to God at that time or does the priest pray for him on his behalf? I might have misunderstood. ( I have been known to do so a time or two in my 52 years) :) The protestant feels that when a man (priest) says say such and such, maybe an example, ten hail Mary's, or such, it is similar as a protestant preacher saying, go bow at the alter 10 times and your sins will be gone. Where was the communication with God? Christ died so that we may come boldly to the throne of God to ask what we will of him. That includes forgiveness. Especially forgiveness. If God can speak to a priest why can't he speak directly to me? Is a priest holier than a lay person? If so how then? How do you know that the priest you are confessing to is not free of sin and that your prayers are not getting through? I am not asking, speaking anything to be rude. I am simply speaking from my heart.

By the way...sometime I might share my thoughts about "hell fire" if you feel it won't be too controversial for this forum.

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[> [> [> [> [> and clarification -- Catie, 17:43:49 11/04/07 Sun [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Although the term "saved" is not used, I do believe one can know their sins are forgiven. We can have fellowship with God himself when we have confessed sins and knowingly, choose to turn our back on it. It is a daily process of asking God to renew our strength as temptations come daily also. But I believe a Christian can live by faith, knowing their confession of sin has been accepted. If God knows the number of hairs on our head, how much more can he see the inside, intention of our hearts. I can KNOW that I have a place with him someday when I die If I live my life to reflect his life. And I don't have to worry about being "good enough" because within myself I am not, never would be. I am born into Adam's sin. But when God sees me now he sees his son's blood across the door post of my heart. Yes I can know that I have salvation.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- Joan, 20:05:08 11/04/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I'm short on time right now--heading off to bed--so I'll answer the easiest question--the one with the shortest answer--first.

"How do you know that the priest you are confessing to is not free of sin..."

It doesn't matter. Sins are forgiven by the power of God. No person is perfect, including priests. They might be holier than some and less holy than others. A priest can be living in mortal sin, and the Sacraments are still valid. The Sacraments aren't through the priest's own power or his goodness.

I'll get more into Confession as a sacrament tomorrow.

I'd love to read about your "hell fire". Controversy? We can handle it here. :-)

"Yes I can know that I have salvation."

I believe that we have a chance at salvation, if I persevere to the very end. I think it's Paul who says that he worries about working to help others but may himself lose out in the end. If Paul wasn't certain that he was "saved", then I don't feel comfortable being so sure myself. That little thing, free will, is always present. God invites us to follow him, but there is no guarantee that we will persist until the very end. Many things can happen in a lifetime.

After I wrote the above, I reread your post. "I can KNOW that I have a place with him someday when I die If I live my life to reflect his life"

It sounds like we actually agree. "If I live my life..." We can know that salvation is offered. And we can know what we need to do, yes do. What we can't know is the future. We have to persevere to the very end.

One more quick note. :-) We say a general confession at church every Sunday--not in the Confessional. We're required to "go to Confession" once a year and before we receive Communion again if we are guilty of an unconfessed mortal sin.

Joan
Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I agree -- Joan, 04:17:39 11/10/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Thirdly, you speak of 'free will' Joan. I have a 100 questions for that but will settle for a couple. First of all, what choice does a baby have to be baptized and what is the sig'nce of that? Where is free will there? It seems mostly ceremonial to me, albeit a wonderful symbolic gesture."

Well, since you say that you were a Catholic once, and that you still appreciate that education, I won't treat you like you're stupid, since you already know the answer to those questions. "Symbolic gesture" indeed. lol

"And if God is all-knowing and omni-present how can he not know who will be 'saved' and who will be headed in the other direction? If you don't have a direct answer for that, I will understand, given that Christendom has been debated that for over 500 yrs now. "

Of course he knows, because he exists outside of what we call "time". That should never mean to anyone that their future is predetermined. Free will determines what will become of us. We may be dirty rotten scoundrels for most of our lives, but turn to God in later life. Or, we may be pretty good people for years, only to turn away from God forever.

You may know someone's life story--Abe Lincoln's, for example. But does that mean his "story" was predetermined, that his free will to act had nothing to do with the outcome of his life? Hardly. God knows how things will be, simply because he exists outside of our "time" constraints. He is the uncaused cause. He always was and alwas will be. God simply is.

How does that mean that we have no free will, or that our free will has nothing to do with possibility?

Are you saying that someone's free will has nothing to do with anything? That the free will to say yes to God is meaningless? What then of the idea that God invites us to come to him, but doesn't demand it?

And would a loving God choose to damn some people just, apparently, for the fun of it? If free will were meaningless, then why would God not choose, to predetermine, that all of his creation be "saved"?

The only logical answer is free will. God invites us to follow him, but he doesn't force us. He doesn't predetermine who will be saved. He knows, because he exists outside of our "time", but he surely doesn't damn some and save others, as if he were a cruel chessmaster playing with his pieces for sport.

If we believe that God wants all of us to be united with Him in Heaven forever, then he could never predetermine that some of us could never say "yes" to his invitation. In that case, He would not truly want all of us to be "saved".

Still, though God knows the outcome, we can't know that, unless we say that we can tell fortunes about the future. That, I'm pretty sure, is probably not a Christians doctine in any denomination. :-)

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> This should be under Phil's response. -- Joan, 02:24:40 11/11/07 Sun [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Yes, I agree with much of this... -- Phil, 20:20:57 11/04/07 Sun [1] (71-223-21-99.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.21.99)

But I always felt that as a Catholic youngster, much of my contact with God was thru the sacraments, man-made rules, priests and the physical Church who had some 'mystical power' to act as an intermediary btwn myself and God. That would include the forgiveness of sins.

When I was saved some 20 yrs ago, I delighted in my personal relationship with God and the fellowship I rcvd with other like-minded Christians. Altho I'm sounding critical, I'm still thankful for my Catholic education, as much of it remains in the realm of what I still believe. Thus, doctrinally, I still find many of the Church's teachings and policies sound.

Thirdly, you speak of 'free will' Joan. I have a 100 questions for that but will settle for a couple. First of all, what choice does a baby have to be baptized and what is the sig'nce of that? Where is free will there? It seems mostly ceremonial to me, albeit a wonderful symbolic gesture. And if God is all-knowing and omni-present how can he not know who will be 'saved' and who will be headed in the other direction? If you don't have a direct answer for that, I will understand, given that Christendom has been debated that for over 500 yrs now. Nevertheless, I anxiously await your answer...

Finally, I have to re-iterate that Catie is right. There is a division w/in Prot'sm itself as to what the concept of 'saved' means. What I stated was just my belief, but there are many who hold the same opinion as me. And I'm not 'stuck' on anything Joan, having been grounded both in Catholicsm and Prot'sm teachings and thought. LoL. That was rather condescending Dear, but you're forgiven. See how ez it it! LoL

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from cool AZ

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[> [> [> [> Oh MY Joan. On hell-fire I could really get the feathers ruffled. -- Catie, 13:20:09 11/05/07 Mon [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Where do folks get the idea that there is an everlasting, forever, never-ending, hot fire burning where sinners are sent to for all eternity? Where did that originate? Answer me that for 10 pts. please. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> Answer; Dante's Inferno... -- Phil from AZ, 14:30:57 11/05/07 Mon [1] (71-223-21-99.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.21.99)

Sure, we can make jokes abt the nether world once in awhile, but 1 can bet that its a very unpleasant place indeed. Thus, regardless of man's interpretation of the place, its pro'bly be unwise to pretend that it doesn't exist.

Take care, God Bless,

Phil from AZ

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Oh good grief. -- Catie, 20:21:14 11/05/07 Mon [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Answer: Charlie Brown...how many pts for that? LoL -- Phil, 09:43:28 11/06/07 Tue [1] (71-223-21-99.phnx.qwest.net/71.223.21.99)

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[> [> [> [> [> My guess, but not a direct quote -- Joan, 04:02:06 11/10/07 Sat [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

from the Bible--it goes something like, unquenchable fire.

We believe that people who die w/ unconfessed venial sin are cleansed in Purgatory, as if through fire.

But in Hell, those who die in unconfessed mortal sin are subject to that "unquenchable" fire. They will never be cleansed. The "fire" can never purify their souls, so they will never see Heaven.

But, like Phil said, probably the popular notion of a literal fire-filled hell, with all of its ghastly torments, comes from Dante.

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Catie, 04:05:16 11/12/07 Mon [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

"unquenchable fire" yes. Ongoing, forever, eternal, no. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Catie, 04:26:21 11/20/07 Tue [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Fire won't be, can't be quenched by anyone. But the bible plainly speaks of this earth be the new heaven after God has purified it. Several scriptures refer to the "ashes" under the feet of the saints. That pretty much destroys the idea of an everlasting fire.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Joan, 06:22:49 11/20/07 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I think "unquenchable" fire burns forever. By definition it won't burn out, like an unquenchable thirst won't ever be satisfied. But it's not literal. It means that people who "go to" Hell are seperated from God forever--they will never see Heaven.

In Purgatory (a state of purification), a person in cleansed as if through fire--as a fire purifies.

In Hell, that "as if through fire" is unquenchable--it lasts forever, and the person will never be purified. The person will be forever seperated from God.

Are you saying that you don't believe in Hell? Or that you beleive that Hell is a temporary state?

Joan

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Catie, 08:28:12 11/20/07 Tue [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Joan, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an unquenchable fire according to Genesis. Where is that fire today? Does it still burn? THere are other examples of unquencable fire in scripture. Those fires are now burned out-are ashes The word "unquenchable" (at lease in the context of Hebrew bible) Means it can't be quenched, but must burn until it burns out and becomes ashes.

Death and "hell" and fire are separate things. Hell absolutely is separation from God. But the connection comes from the scriptures in Revelation (which means Reveal)- John said in Revelations in the "end of time" he saw death and hell cast into a "Lake" of fire. What he saw was purification of the earth and the evil being consumed. If earth is going to be the new Jerusalem, we know God can not live where sin is. The earth must be purified. It is purified by fire. To explain what John saw we must consider if we saw everything burning as far as the eye could see on this earth, it certainly would appear as a "lake of fire". It is an all consuming fire. The scriptures, new and old, speak of the new heaven being here on earth, that God places Satan's ashes under the feet of the redeemed in the new Jerusalem.

Purgatory. Where does that come from?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: My guess, but not a direct quote -- Joan, 05:53:07 11/21/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"Purgatory. Where does that come from?"

The Bible. But it's in the sections that Protestants don't use.

I think we agree on Hell. It's a difference in how we use words that makes it seem like we're saying two different things.

The "unquenchable" means forever. Once someone is damned to Hell at his particular judgement, the judgement at his own death, he is seperated from God forever. This non-literal "fire" can never cleanse his soul as the non-literal "fire" cleanses the souls of those undergoing purification for unconfessed/unforgiven menial sins.

I think we agree. Do you believe that someone who is damned to Hell at death will someday see God? Maybe we don't agree. The seperation from God is for eternity, I believe.

We don't beleive in a literal Hell as a place with fire, or as a place at all. It is a state of seperation from God. If that state (Hell) doesn't exist anymore, what happens to the souls that are in that state? Are they released to Heaven--a state of eternity with God?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> From the CCC -- Joan, 05:59:16 11/21/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

Maybe I'm making the waters more muddy here. :-)

Here is a short blurb from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Maybe it's more clear that what I've been writing.

"To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 12, SubSection 4

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. "

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Joan -- Catie, 09:52:32 11/21/07 Wed [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

Yes we agree in that hell is eternal separation from God. Beyond that I think we differ.

As a protestant and Christian I believe to die without unconfessed sin is eternal separation from God. There is no second chance or another state of waiting to be absolved of sin or forgiven, regardless of the sin. I believe everyone who lives and breaths is not only offered a choice to accept God but God the father in his divine love and mercy actually "pleads" with mankind to accept him. He goes out of his way to make us see his love and mercy while we are still able to choose. The scripture teaches he wants no one to "perish" but to have everlasting life. But he will never take away our choice. If he did, he would have to go back on his word and since he is holy, can not lie, he will not force anyone to accept him. So if one refuses the one true God, by their own choice, and die in sin, they are not given another chance to accept him. They will "perish" because they chose not to accept him. He did all he could to get their attention while they were living. It broke his heart when even Lucifier, a beautiful angel, created by God himself, caused a great war in heaven. How much more does he love us created in his own image. Regarding Satan/Lucifer He said to him "You were perfect in all of your ways UNTIL iniquity was found in you". NOW THIS IS WHAT I THINK FOLKS MISS THE POINT OF GOD'S LOVE:

When Lucifier (means light) caused division in heaven, God could have destroyed him even then. But he is a GOd of love and wanted even the angels to have a choice to either choose him or Lucifer. He wants folks to willingly love him. He forces himself on no one. All of the angels were watching. If God had killed Lucifer then the other angels could have said "Oh good grief, we must serve him or he will destroy us too". But he allowed Lucifer (now Satan) to use his lies and convince 1/3 of the angels to take his side. He then cast Satan from heaven because Sin and Holiness can absolutely not reside together. The rest of the angels observed the mercy of God when he didn't destroy Satan. They serve him willingly. God shows that same mercy to us. We have a choice.

Now in Revelations the fire John saw was an all consuming fire - from all of the sin in the world. That included Satan, his angels and all who refused God. It is unquenceable but it burns out. Then when God brings Heaven to this earth, purified by fire, then sin will no longer exist in the universe. He Told Satan (in the old testament) and spoke to him in the past tense "I have made you ashes under the feet of the saints". So the answer, all sin is consumed by a literal purified fire and becomes nothing but ashes.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Joan -- Joan, 14:31:25 11/21/07 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"So the answer, all sin is consumed by a literal purified fire and becomes nothing but ashes."

So what happens to the souls who died with unconfessed sin? If they suffer eternal seperation, but their sin is purified eventually, do they then see God? That doesn't make sense to me.

"As a protestant and Christian I believe to die without unconfessed sin is eternal separation from God. There is no second chance or another state of waiting to be absolved of sin or forgiven, regardless of the sin."

But what if you're walking down the street and you have a very unkind thought about another human being. Maybe the person is deformed or annoying. Maybe it's a drug addict who is asking you for money for "food", when you know it's for booze, and you think "This guy isn't worth my time." Then a car jumps the curb and kills you. You died w/ that unconfessed sin. Do you go to Hell or Heaven, or is there another state where a soul can be purified before entering Heaven (since nothing impure can enter Heaven.)?

This is why we pray for the dead. The souls in Heaven are beyond hope. They are eternally seperated from God. The souls in Heaven don't need our prayers. It's the souls undergoing purification who need our prayers. This is why the Bible talks about praying for the dead.

I don't think God intends for us to go to Hell for "small" sins like unkind thoughts about people or for things like a teenager's disrespectin his father just before being hit by the car that jumps the curb. But, if we believe that everyone with any unconfessed sin goes to Hell, what else is there to believe but that many good people are in Hell for a thought or deed done just before they died and before they had the time to confess that sin. Yikes!

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Joan -- Catie, 19:10:52 11/21/07 Wed [1] (h164.252.213.151.ip.alltel.net/151.213.252.164)

I don't think a creator of the universe, a God who loves mankind, who gave up his son, which was actual diety, to stand in our place as a sacrifice for OUR sin, is eagerly awaiting to find fault and "destroy" man. I don't think we are to live in fear that we might sin, for even a second, without a chance to confess, then face God to be judged. But that doesn't answer the question nor excuse the sin. Here, according to scripture, is what I think about a situation as you described:

Christ said when he must leave he would send the Holy Spirit in his place. He said when he comes he will lead us into ALL truth. What is the purpose of the Holy Spirit? First he is our comforter. He NEVER condemns. Only Satan is the one who condemns. Thqat does not mean that God tolerates sin, but I'm speaking of feeling guilty all the time about something I might have done or be tempted to do. The Holy Spirit, "nudges" us when we stray from the "straight and narrow". The bible says this about sin: If a person knows to do good and does not do it, then it is to him a sin. So If a person has a sinful thought (which is sent to us by Satan), is in opposition of God's word, and does not refuse that thought or "cast it down" as the bible says, it is a sin. BUt if we cast away a fleeting thought, refuse to allow it to take hold in our mind, we have not sinned but we were tested, or tempted. We have a choice to accept that thought, or deed. We can dwell on a sinful thought or cast it aside. I believe ANYTIME we have a sinful thought, immediately the Holy Spirit will reveal to us it that sin. Immediately it becomes our own choice to dwell, allow it to take root, or to cast it aside. I truly do not believe anyone has ever faced death without first knowing whether or not they had sin in their life. There might have been those who died with sin, but at sometime refused to be forgiven and chose to dwell in sin. But I think that person was given a chance at one time to know God and be forgiven. God goes out of his way to reveal sin because his main goal is to save mankind, not destroy him. If he will reveal it, then he surely will give an opportunity to all to be forgiven. We can choose to listen to the HOly spirit or to accept the sin. It is always our choice. But that does not mean we live in fear of God eager to zap us out of here.

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