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mo black jack as pilgrim's progress -- me, 05:28:44 07/29/02 Mon
Subject: Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: ftp.bdo.com.pe / 216.244.159.217
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 12:17:11 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you are an unregenerated hypocrite, playing at being a Christian, as do all cultists and self-righteous religionists. Why don't you leave decent, Godly people alone and crawl back under the rock you came out from under?
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: mail.bdo.com.pe / 216.244.159.217
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 06:22:42 07/28/02 Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outstanding testimony Bro. Jack! God is truly an awesome God! My onw testimony is somewhat similar. It is a sad but true statement that Christians are the first to shoot their own, causing them to turn away from God. That appears to be what is taking place on this "gossip board" masquerading as a "Christian Fellowship board." People such as these will have much blood on their hands to give account for when they stand before God. Don't let these Pharisees/cultists get to you. Know that I and several churches and ministers I have contacted are praying against the attacks of these demon-influenced people, and praying God will strengthen you and sustain you in the midst of the fiery darts of the wicked one and his dupes. It seems these people are known all over the internet for attacking Christians while pretending to be Christians themselves.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
Replies:
[>
Re: mo black jack as pilgrim's progress -- me, 05:45:44 07/29/02 Mon
Subject: Re: Flappin Jack: Uncovering a Wolf In Double Wide Sheep's Skin
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.241.164.67
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 03:58:39 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing you should know. Rev. Jack Howell did not write those words on the PFAI website. The founder and previous Bishop of PFAI, Dr. Mike Kear created that website and wrote those words recommending Hagin's book. You owe Jack an apology for your false accusation. Also, did you know that a real Independent Baptist church is a member of PFAI?
>On Flappin' Jack's Website he states that the book by
>heretic Kenneth Hagan is highly recommended reading:
>
>
>"The Believer's Authority by Kenneth E. Hagin
>"Something every believer needs to know is their
>authority in Christ Jesus. "
>
>_______________________________________________________
>______
>
>LETTUCE look at some of Hagan's own quotes:
>
>"We (the church) are Christ." (Kenneth Hagin, As
>Christ is -- So are we, Tape #44H06)
>
>Think about that for a minute. Anyone saying; "We are
>Christ." Perhaps this is some insight into the false
>piousness and the demanding of unmerited respect Jack
>commands of all of society with the appellation
>"REVEREND".
>
>"Christ's physical death on the cross was not
>enough to save us." (Kenneth Hagin, How Jesus
>obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)
>
>"Jesus tasted spiritual death." (Kenneth Hagin,
>How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01)
>
>"The Christian "is as much an incarnation as was
>Jesus of Nazareth.""(Kenneth Hagin, "The
>Incarnation," THE WORD OF FAITH (Dec. 1980), 14.)
>
>FROM THE ADMINISTRATION: "Because your spirit has
>been tested, as per 1 John 4:1, and that testing has
>uncovered that you are not a committed believer in the
>historic Christian faith, but have been uncovered as a
>false prophet who has presumed to speak a word coming
>from the Lord which fully endorsed the false prophet
>Kenneth Copeland, which was not a word from the Lord
>thus was a false word given as if it were from the
>Lord, but indeed came from another source, making YOU,
>Flap Jack, a false prophet as per Deuteronomy
>18:20(But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in
>My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or
>who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet
>shall die.')
>
>As a false prophet, you, Flap Jack, are thereby
>eliminated from being a "committed believer in the
>historic Christian faith" but are indeed a wolf in
>sheep's clothing."
>
>This is why I maintain that Flappin' Jack is a tare
>who's wicked doctrine is of demons and we will
>continue to EXPOSE. I will expose your nakedness
>Jack---!!!!! smile.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: By The Way...
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.241.164.67
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 05:46:05 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more thing; Dr. Mike Kear is Independent Baptist, and founder and senior Pastor of Friendship Baptist Church, Ponca City, Oklahoma. FBC is a Spirit-filled Independent Baptist church.
Still waiting for your apology to Rev. Jack for your false accusations.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Re: Flappin Jack: Uncovering a Wolf In Double Wide Sheep's Skin
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: maq241i.advance.com.ar / 200.41.234.241
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 08:09:46 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were a betting man, I would wager that the hypocrite falsely calling herself "Sola Scriptura," never listened to the tape by Kenneth Hagin she reference, for herself. I would wager she bought into the fraud Hank Hannegraff's little snippet (sound byte)that does not contain Hagin's words in context! Such snippets are dishonest at worst, and highly questionable at best, since they are only mere pieces of what was said, rather than the entire context of what was said. To rely upon such snippets and quote a mere snippet, rather than the entire quote, is dishonest and very misleading and unworthy, as well as unbecoming of a "real" Christian as she wants people to believe she is.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Flappin Jack: Uncovering a Wolf In Double Wide Sheep's Skin
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.25.10.65
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 08:20:27 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, did you know that Mr. Hannegraf, the so-called Bible Answer Man, was called into account several times for his unethical and dishonest use of snippets of recordings? This is because snippets can be made to appear to say anything the one using them wants them to say and he has been caught taking statements out of context and misapplying them with his "snippets" he uses to back his claims. Hmmm...liars and deceivers do tend to flock together, eh?
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> [> Subject: Re: Flappin Jack: Uncovering a Wolf In Double Wide Sheep's Skin
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.25.10.65
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 08:25:16 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, did you know that Mr. Hannegraf, the so-called Bible Answer Man, was called into account several times for his unethical and dishonest use of snippets of recordings? This is because snippets can be made to appear to say anything the one using them wants them to say and he has been caught taking statements out of context and misapplying them with his "snippets" he uses to back his claims. Hmmm...liars and deceivers do tend to flock together, eh?
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
Subject: Re: Tamarisk, Dolly, Another Catholic NOT Roman. Bethany, Tozer, Monsignor & ALL the Saints
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.241.164.67
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 03:54:19 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to your "Once Saved, Always Saved" error, one can be saved and turn away from God and remain saved. You contradict yourself and display a double-minded way of thinking. Does not scripture state that "a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways?" This means you are unstable in your theology as well as in other areas. On one side of your mouth, you advocate "Once Saved, Always Saved," and on the other side of your mouth, you deny it by claiming without first-hand knowledge of the facts or situation that arose in that man's life that resulted in his turning away from God that he was never saved in spite of his testimony of being saved and even gave the exactg date he gave his heart to the Lord.
You are nothing more than a self-righteous and greatly confused hypocrite who knows nothing of God, His mercies, or His Word. You only know the corrupt traditions of men you claim as doctrine. How miserable you and your ilk must be as displayed by the posts on this "board!"
>Has anyone heard if our demonized flappy-lipped
>heretic even HAS his own church? I don’t think he does
>because he talks about HIS pastor. The guy’s a serious
>mental case expecting people to call him “REVEREND.”
>He doesn't even HAVE HIS OWN CHURCH! No wonder he's
>mad we refuse to bow down to him! LOL!
>
>Just like the Scripture says that false teachers like
>Revy will turn everything upside down and backwards at
>the end of the age, just like he is doing.
>
>Someone said: “He still has the same demons he had
>when he was wiccan. When the house was swept clean, 7
>more came back with the originals.”
>
>One can not be wiccan AND saved at the same time. His
>testimony is evidence that somthun's not right with
>Jack. Want to know what I think? I think Jack didn't
>have two masters, he has the same ORIGINAL master.
>He's just puttin' on the "holy show before men" Just
>like Benny Hinn's false doctrine of demons. I can't
>stand to look at him he looks sweaty. YUCK. Creepy.
Subject: Re: Wise Words To One Who Would Command of Others A Respect Not Due Him
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.241.164.67
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 03:45:49 07/27/02 Sat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't believe God as it is, so you have no room to talk, and neither does this poor excuse for a "Christian" board. It is nothing more than a gossip board where "Christian wannabes" gather to lift one another's egos and condemn those who have exposed their hypocrisies and religious errors. You do not know God, and have never been born anew of Him as your posts moste decidedly show! You attempted to whitewash the outside, but inwardly you are unregenerated and as wicked as ever.
>.
>
>I do not believe God ever fills a cup which was not
>empty, or that
> he fills a man's mouth with GOD's WORD while that
>man's mouth has his mouth FULL of HIS OWN WORDS.
>
>.
>
>"Ponder Sweetheart"
Heretics and False Teachers
Author:
Pilgrim's Progress
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 200.241.164.67
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 18:42:54 07/26/02 Fri
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tamerisk
SAK-47
Sola Scriptura
Gerard (the counterfeit watchman)
Ponder sweetheart!
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more jack -- me, 05:11:18 07/29/02 Mon
Subject: Re: TRUTH HAS A FUNNY WAY OF BITING DEMONS IN DA PANTS!
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net / 68.12.221.220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 17:03:30 07/28/02 Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did you modify what I said by dishonestly adding parentheses to "17 years," thus changing the meaning of what I actually said? You are the one who is sick, as well as dishonest. You dishonestly took my quote out of context and misused it, showing your unregenerated and dihonest nature. I have not been "Wiccan" in 17 years, now get that through your demon-infested, unregenerated, dishonest head. Got it?
>Flappin Jack: "..... I can honestly say that I have
>not prayed any "wiccan" prayers (in 17 years). It
>is just like the devil to try to remind people of
>their past!
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>
>FROM FLAPPIN JACK'S PUBLIC DOMAIN TESTIMONY WHICH HE
>HAS FORCED ON OTHERS AND POSTED ALL OVER & As RECENTLY
>AS LAST WEEK ABOUT HIMSELF!!!!:
>
>BLACK JACK SAYS ABOUT HIMSELF: "I became interested
>in the Wicca religion and was initiated into the
>Alexandrian tradition by its founder, Alex Sanders
>himself after accepting his invitation to come to
>England on leave. I also studied the Celtic, Seax,
>Gardenarian, and Ecclectic traditions of Wicca. "
>
>You are correct Jack. Those demons still rule your
>roost. Get help you are a sick man.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> Subject: Here Is What I ACTUALLY Said
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net / 68.12.221.220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 17:08:51 07/28/02 Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 16:33:20 07/28/02 Sun
Author: Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
Subject: Re: Amen & Praise the Lord!
In reply to: GW 's message, "Amen & Praise the Lord!" on 16:33:20 07/28/02 Sun
"Since I have NOT been Wiccan in over 17 years, I can honestly say that I have not prayed any "wiccan" prayers. It is just like the devil to try to remind people of their past! This is just another example showing you are not a follower of Christ."
>Flappin Jack: "..... I can honestly say that I have
>not prayed any "wiccan" prayers (in 17 years). It
>is just like the devil to try to remind people of
>their past!
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>
>FROM FLAPPIN JACK'S PUBLIC DOMAIN TESTIMONY WHICH HE
>HAS FORCED ON OTHERS AND POSTED ALL OVER & As RECENTLY
>AS LAST WEEK ABOUT HIMSELF!!!!:
>
>BLACK JACK SAYS ABOUT HIMSELF: "I became interested
>in the Wicca religion and was initiated into the
>Alexandrian tradition by its founder, Alex Sanders
>himself after accepting his invitation to come to
>England on leave. I also studied the Celtic, Seax,
>Gardenarian, and Ecclectic traditions of Wicca. "
>
>You are correct Jack. Those demons still rule your
>roost. Get help you are a sick man.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: By The Way...
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net / 68.12.221.220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 17:13:01 07/28/02 Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"GW" is none other that Gerard (the fraudulent watchman) who denies the Triune nature of the Godhead and endorses the teachings of Charles Taze Russell and Herbert W. Armstrong, and views Jesus Christ as a "created being" rather than Creator.
> Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message |
>Previous Message ]
>
>Date Posted: 16:33:20 07/28/02 Sun
>Author: Rev. Jack Howell
>Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
>Subject: Re: Amen & Praise the Lord!
>In reply to: GW 's message, "Amen & Praise the Lord!"
>on 16:33:20 07/28/02 Sun
>
>"Since I have NOT been Wiccan in over 17 years, I can
>honestly say that I have not prayed any "wiccan"
>prayers. It is just like the devil to try to remind
>people of their past! This is just another example
>showing you are not a follower of Christ."
>
>
>>Flappin Jack: "..... I can honestly say that I have
>>not prayed any "wiccan" prayers (in 17 years). It
>>is just like the devil to try to remind people of
>>their past!
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------
>-
>>--------
>>
>>FROM FLAPPIN JACK'S PUBLIC DOMAIN TESTIMONY WHICH HE
>>HAS FORCED ON OTHERS AND POSTED ALL OVER & As RECENTLY
>>AS LAST WEEK ABOUT HIMSELF!!!!:
>>
>>BLACK JACK SAYS ABOUT HIMSELF: "I became interested
>>in the Wicca religion and was initiated into the
>>Alexandrian tradition by its founder, Alex Sanders
>>himself after accepting his invitation to come to
>>England on leave. I also studied the Celtic, Seax,
>>Gardenarian, and Ecclectic traditions of Wicca. "
>>
>>You are correct Jack. Those demons still rule your
>>roost. Get help you are a sick man.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[> [> Subject: Re: Here Is What I ACTUALLY Said
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net / 68.12.221.220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 17:16:59 07/28/02 Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice how Gerard takes a portion of my testimony OUT OF CONTEXT and MISAPPLIES it, to make it appear that I am still Wiccan, which I am not. He is dishonest, mentally and emotionally disturbed and well-known all over the internet for such deceptive behavior.
> Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message |
>Previous Message ]
>
>Date Posted: 16:33:20 07/28/02 Sun
>Author: Rev. Jack Howell
>Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
>Subject: Re: Amen & Praise the Lord!
>In reply to: GW 's message, "Amen & Praise the Lord!"
>on 16:33:20 07/28/02 Sun
>
>"Since I have NOT been Wiccan in over 17 years, I can
>honestly say that I have not prayed any "wiccan"
>prayers. It is just like the devil to try to remind
>people of their past! This is just another example
>showing you are not a follower of Christ."
>
>
>>Flappin Jack: "..... I can honestly say that I have
>>not prayed any "wiccan" prayers (in 17 years). It
>>is just like the devil to try to remind people of
>>their past!
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------
>-
>>--------
>>
>>FROM FLAPPIN JACK'S PUBLIC DOMAIN TESTIMONY WHICH HE
>>HAS FORCED ON OTHERS AND POSTED ALL OVER & As RECENTLY
>>AS LAST WEEK ABOUT HIMSELF!!!!:
>>
>>BLACK JACK SAYS ABOUT HIMSELF: "I became interested
>>in the Wicca religion and was initiated into the
>>Alexandrian tradition by its founder, Alex Sanders
>>himself after accepting his invitation to come to
>>England on leave. I also studied the Celtic, Seax,
>>Gardenarian, and Ecclectic traditions of Wicca. "
>>
>>You are correct Jack. Those demons still rule your
>>roost. Get help you are a sick man.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
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Replies:
[>
Re: more jack -- me, 05:17:45 07/29/02 Mon
Subject: Re: ACNR/Dolly/Bethany Black ~ Jack Has His Proxy Server Cranking In High Gear
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net / 68.12.221.220
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 10:33:52 07/28/02 Sun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, that was NOT written by me. What's the matter silly Sola? Can't stand the thought of being in the wrong? Neither could the Pharisees. Think about it!
>You are a tormented sick man Jack. You need help. I
>say this in the most serious and literal sense of the
>word. You are not right inside. Everyone can see this.
>You need mental evaluation and medication.
>
>With his PROXY SERVER Black Jack writes "Outstanding
>testimony Bro. Jack!" Here we have the tormented Black
>Jack playing childish games with himself and everyone
>of discernment sees right through his evil pranks. He
>is using his proxy server for dishonest evil and
>dotting various boards along the internet and talking
>to himself about himself. It is SURREAL! AND
>TORMENTED! Quit dragging Jesus through your mud!
>
>Obviously the same unregenerate spirit can be
>attributed to all posts. Black Jack is known for
>giving unto man (himself!), the glory that God alone
>deserves.
>
> Every day he does his imitation of Moses striking the
>rock.
>
>You have been asked to leave here Flappin’ Jack. You
>are a tormented dishonorable person, Black Jack. You
>disgrace the body of Christ. REPENT
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more of jack -- me, 08:50:57 07/27/02 Sat
Date Posted: 12:44:41 07/27/02 Sat
Author: Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
Subject: Now....
In reply to: Rev. Jack Howell 's message, "Re: what association do you have with Hagin's RHEMA Bible Training Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma" on 12:44:41 07/27/02 Sat
I have told you to cease addressing any posts to me, as well as to cease making mention of, or reference to me in any subsequent posts, and this request has also been forwarded to them along with with your response misrepresenting the Constitution, to show your intent to harass. It is in your best interest to leave here and cease and desist as instructed.
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more of jack -- me, 08:44:39 07/27/02 Sat
Date Posted: 12:25:33 07/27/02 Sat
Author: Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
Subject: Re: to demon Jack Howell
In reply to: SAK-47 's message, "to demon Jack Howell" on 12:25:33 07/27/02 Sat
In "My Testimony," I did no such thing. I suggest you go back and re-read it, and cease and desist with the blantantly false and dishonest statements. Be warned that each of your false statements are being forwarded to the Campus Police of Meredith College, as per the instructions of Campus Chief of Police, Frank Strickland.
Now, that being said, I think you are referring to PFAI's web site, which was not created by me, but by PFI's founder and previous Bishop, Dr. Mike Kear. Those endorsements are his, not mine. I had nothing to do with the creation or contents of the website. Now, it seems that YOU owe me an apology.
Date Posted: 12:31:03 07/27/02 Sat
Author: SAK-47
Author Host/IP: 152.35.37.244
Subject: what association do you have with Hagin's RHEMA Bible Training Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma
In reply to: Rev. Jack Howell 's message, "Re: to demon Jack Howell" on 12:31:03 07/27/02 Sat
LOL.....tell the truth this time Jack.
BTW, send all you want, what they will tell you is----sue.
But you can't do that so you think that you can use your WOF majik formula, "I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS", which is nothing more than an incantation calling on demon spirits who impersonate Jesus.
A genuine REBUKE is when we have exposed YOU for lying, endorsing WOF false prophets, and exposing your powerless self annointing with the TRUTH!
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Jack's replies:
Date Posted: 12:37:08 07/27/02 Sat
Author: Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
Subject: Re: what association do you have with Hagin's RHEMA Bible Training Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma
In reply to: SAK-47 's message, "what association do you have with Hagin's RHEMA Bible Training Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma" on 12:37:08 07/27/02 Sat
I have absolutely no association or affiliation with Rhema, and I suggest YOU begin telling the truth and cease and desist with your lies and false statements. Do YOU understand me? You are in big trouble, and digging yourself in deeper.
I have absolutely no association or affiliation with Rhema, and I suggest YOU begin telling the truth and cease and desist with your lies and false statements. Do YOU understand me? You are in big trouble, and digging yourself in deeper. Others have been made aware of the email I received from Meredith College's Chief of Campus Police, so your statements have no value. Those who received a copy of his email know what he has told me, and know you to be speaking falsely.
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more from heretic Jack -- me, 06:22:20 07/25/02 Thu
from www.voy.com/48297/
Date Posted: 16:44:27 07/21/02 Sun
Author: SAK-47
Author Host/IP: 152.35.37.244
Subject: THE evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT speaking in tongues
In reply to: Rev. Jack Howell 's message, "For SAK-47" on 16:44:27 07/21/02 Sun
That is a charismaniac lie.
THE evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is in the transformed life of the believer who is daily conformed into the image of Christ.
Please answer my question concerning Kenneth Copeland, and whether your charismatic hotline to God tells you whether Copeland is a man of God or not.
Yes, or no?
heretic Jack's response:
Date Posted: 16:53:06 07/21/02 Sun
Author: Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
Subject: Trying To Change The Subject?
In reply to: SAK-47 's message, "THE evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT speaking in tongues" on 16:53:06 07/21/02 Sun
That is a typical cult tactic, and further reveals a great deal about your pseudo-spirituality. It is true that speaking in tongues is not THE evidence, but it is certainly an evidence, but you cessationists who claim that the Holy Ghost is not for us today, would know nothing about that, since you deny His Office for us today.
However, I will answer your question which is nothing more than an attempt to divert from the subject at hand, because you have been exposed and refuted as a spiritual fraud. Kenneth Copeland IS a man of God, and I will never deny that. He IS, however, teaching some things contrary to scripture and I do not deny that, either.
More from the demon:
Date Posted: 19:57:25 07/24/02 Wed
Author: Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: 68.12.221.220
Subject: Re: Nope
In reply to: SAK-47 's message, "Nope" on 19:57:25 07/24/02 Wed
Again, you are blind because the god of this world has blinded you to the truth. WHERE HAVE I SAID I SUPPORT COPELAND OR HIS TEACHINGS? I have said NO SUCH THING as everyone here knows because of my previous posts on this matter you so foolishly continue to bring up because you can't see the truth because of your spiritual blindness. WHAT I HAVE SAID IS THAT I BELIEVE COPELAND IS A MANO OF GOD WHO WENT OFF INTO ERROR. THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE, BB's FOR BRAINS! AT NO TIME DID YOU SEE ME POSTING ANYTHING SUPPORTING COPELAND'S TEACHINGS OR THE TEACHINGS OF WoF IN GENERAL. YOU LIE AND ACT DECEITFULLY AND DISHONESTLY BY CONTINUING WITH THIS CRAP, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS; CRAP COMING FROM THE DUNGHILL OF YOUR MAN-MADE DOCTRINES AND TRADITIONS OF MEN.
Now, little BB's for brains, I will not tell you again. got it?
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Re: more from heretic Jack -- me, 07:18:48 07/26/02 Fri
[> [> Subject: Re: MR TOAD SAYS HE DOESN"T THIS POST so here it is for thosw who missed it.....
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date Posted: 02:48:53 07/26/02 Fri
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a word, BALONEY! I have absolute peace, but obviously none of you do! That is evident from the posts on this very board where you mock and ricule and bad-mouth others so you can justify yourselves and give yourselves some semblence of "peace." You are completely lacking in spiritual discernment which is typical of those who have not the spirit of God dwelling in them, oh but then, you deny He is for Believers today, so it is no wonder! He does not dwell where He is not welcome! Modern day Pharisees pretending to be Belivers is all that you are! Also remember this, "if any have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Romans 8:9). That is why you berate, bad-mouth, and condemn others with your demon-infested venom! You do not have the Spirit of Christ in you and are really none of His, so you try to comfort one another by attacking others. Your words and actions have exposed you for the spiritual frauds that you really are! Repent and come to the REAL Jesus of the Bible and depart from the counterfeit "jesus" you have created in your own wicked, defiled image! I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS!
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from Jack the heretic -- me, 16:51:47 07/22/02 Mon
Subject: This IS NOT A Christian Site
Author:
Bob Jones Jr.
Author Host/IP: zt.koszalin.tpnet.pl /
195.205.242.19
Date Posted: 16:41:38 07/22/02 Mon
This group is part of the "Christian Identity Movement" which is anything but
Christian. The "Christian Identity Movement" is anti-government in complete
contradiction to the Word of God, and has been linked to acts of domestic
terrorism such as murdering doctors who perform abortion and bombing clinics.
These are acts no real Christian would engage in. You would be wise to have
nothing to do with this site or the deluded people running it!
Bob Jones Jr.
Subject: So, You Want My Statement of Faith, eh?
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP:
ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net /
68.12.221.220
Date Posted: 15:50:51 07/22/02 Mon
Well now, you can find it at:
http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/revealedtruthmin/index.html
My site is protected by copyright law, so you are instructed NOT to copy anything
from that site without my express written permission.
Subject: I See That You COWARDLY Deleted My Post REFUTING
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net /
68.12.221.220
Date Posted: 15:13:22 07/22/02 Mon
your falsehoods about me. Obviously, you can't stand the truth to be
told because it reveals the dark nature of your souls and unregenerated
nature. You have an outward form of godliness, but you do deny the
power thereof, proving you are false teachers and spiritual counterfeits.
By the way, you have until 5:00 p.m. CST, 23 July, 2002, to remove
the post containing my testimony that you ILLEGALLY pirated
otherwise, I and my lawyer will be contacting Voy by telephone and do
what we have to do to close your board for violating their Acceptable
Use Policy. Do you understand me? I am not playing games here.
Subject: By The Way...
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net /
68.12.221.220
Date Posted: 02:43:06 07/22/02 Mon
I did not give anyone permission to copy and paste my
testimony which is protected by copyright law. You are
hereby instructed to remove the post with my testimony,
which was pirated immediately or I will contact Voy and
inform them of this violation of their Acceptable Use Policy
which strictly prohibits use of copyrighted material without the
author's consent.
Subject: Re: By The Way...
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net /
68.12.221.220
Date Posted: 15:04:59 07/22/02 Mon
You had better check the copyright laws. A disclaimer is
NOT required as of the year 2000 when the law changed.
Now, I am giving you until tomorrow to remove the post or I
WILL be on the phone to VOY along with my lawyer. Do
you understand me?
Oh and I know what Paul says about going to law against
Believers, but your actions prove you are counterfeits, and not
genuine Believers.
Subject: Copyright Law of The United States of America
Author:
Rev. Jack Howell
Author Host/IP: ip68-12-221-220.ok.ok.cox.net /
68.12.221.220
Date Posted: 15:29:07 07/22/02 Mon
Title 17 of The United States Code, chapter 4:
§ 401. Notice of copyright: Visually perceptible copies1
(a) General Provisions.-Whenever a work protected under
this title is published in the United States or elsewhere by
authority of the copyright owner, a notice of copyright as
provided by this section may be placed on publicly distributed
copies from which the work can be visually perceived, either
directly or with the aid of a machine or device.
(b) Form of Notice.-If a notice appears on the copies, it shall
consist of the following three elements:
(1) the symbol © (the letter C in a circle), or the word
"Copyright", or the abbreviation "Copr."; and
(2) the year of first publication of the work; in the case of
compilations or derivative works incorporating previously
published material, the year date of first publication of the
compilation or derivative work is sufficient. The year date
may be omitted where a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work,
with accompanying text matter, if any, is reproduced in or on
greeting cards, postcards, stationery, jewelry, dolls, toys, or
any useful articles; and
(3) the name of the owner of copyright in the work, or an
abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a
generally known alternative designation of the owner.
(c) Position of Notice.-The notice shall be affixed to the copies
in such manner and location as to give reasonable notice of
the claim of copyright. The Register of Copyrights shall
prescribe by regulation, as examples, specific methods of
affixation and positions of the notice on various types of
works that will satisfy this requirement, but these
specifications shall not be considered exhaustive.
(d) Evidentiary Weight of Notice.-If a notice of copyright in
the form and position specified by this section appears on the
published copy or copies to which a defendant in a copyright
infringement suit had access, then no weight shall be given to
such a defendant's interposition of a defense based on
innocent infringement in mitigation of actual or statutory
damages, except as provided in the last sentence of section
504(c)(2).
§ 402. Notice of copyright: Phonorecords of sound
recordings2
(a) General Provisions.-Whenever a sound recording
protected under this title is published in the United States or
elsewhere by authority of the copyright owner, a notice of
copyright as provided by this section may be placed on
publicly distributed phonorecords of the sound recording.
(b) Form of Notice.-If a notice appears on the phonorecords,
it shall consist of the following three elements:
(1) the symbol (the letter P in a circle); and
(2) the year of first publication of the sound recording; and
(3) the name of the owner of copyright in the sound recording,
or an abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a
generally known alternative designation of the owner; if the
producer of the sound recording is named on the phonorecord
labels or containers, and if no other name appears in
conjunction with the notice, the producer's name shall be
considered a part of the notice.
(c) Position of Notice.-The notice shall be placed on the
surface of the phonorecord, or on the phonorecord label or
container, in such manner and location as to give reasonable
notice of the claim of copyright.
(d) Evidentiary Weight of Notice.-If a notice of copyright in
the form and position specified by this section appears on the
published phonorecord or phonorecords to which a defendant
in a copyright infringement suit had access, then no weight
shall be given to such a defendant's interposition of a defense
based on innocent infringement in mitigation of actual or
statutory damages, except as provided in the last sentence of
section 504(c)(2).
§ 403. Notice of copyright: Publications incorporating United
States Government works3 Sections 401(d) and 402(d) shall
not apply to a work published in copies or phonorecords
consisting predominantly of one or more works of the United
States Government unless the notice of copyright appearing
on the published copies or phonorecords to which a defendant
in the copyright infringement suit had access includes a
statement identifying, either affirmatively or negatively, those
portions of the copies or phonorecords embodying any work
or works protected under this title.
§ 404. Notice of copyright: Contributions to collective works4
(a) A separate contribution to a collective work may bear its
own notice of copyright, as provided by sections 401 through
403. However, a single notice applicable to the collective
work as a whole is sufficient to invoke the provisions of
section 401(d) or 402(d), as applicable with respect to the
separate contributions it contains (not including
advertisements inserted on behalf of persons other than the
owner of copyright in the collective work), regardless of the
ownership of copyright in the contributions and whether or
not they have been previously published.
(b) With respect to copies and phonorecords publicly
distributed by authority of the copyright owner before the
effective date of the Berne Convention Implementation Act of
1988, where the person named in a single notice applicable to
a collective work as a whole is not the owner of copyright in a
separate contribution that does not bear its own notice, the
case is governed by the provisions of section 406(a).
§ 405. Notice of copyright: Omission of notice on certain
copies and phonorecords5
(a) Effect of Omission on Copyright.-With respect to copies
and phonorecords publicly distributed by authority of the
copyright owner before the effective date of the Berne
Convention Implementation Act of 1988, the omission of the
copyright notice described in sections 401 through 403 from
copies or phonorecords publicly distributed by authority of the
copyright owner does not invalidate the copyright in a work
if-
(1) the notice has been omitted from no more than a relatively
small number of copies or phonorecords distributed to the
public; or
(2) registration for the work has been made before or is made
within five years after the publication without notice, and a
reasonable effort is made to add notice to all copies or
phonorecords that are distributed to the public in the United
States after the omission has been discovered; or
(3) the notice has been omitted in violation of an express
requirement in writing that, as a condition of the copyright
owner's authorization of the public distribution of copies or
phonorecords, they bear the prescribed notice.
(b) Effect of Omission on Innocent Infringers.-Any person who
innocently infringes a copyright, in reliance upon an
authorized copy or phonorecord from which the copyright
notice has been omitted and which was publicly distributed by
authority of the copyright owner before the effective date of
the Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988, incurs no
liability for actual or statutory damages under section 504 for
any infringing acts committed before receiving actual notice
that registration for the work has been made under section
408, if such person proves that he or she was misled by the
omission of notice. In a suit for infringement in such a case
the court may allow or disallow recovery of any of the
infringer's profits attributable to the infringement, and may
enjoin the continuation of the infringing undertaking or may
require, as a condition for permitting the continuation of the
infringing undertaking, that the infringer pay the copyright
owner a reasonable license fee in an amount and on terms
fixed by the court.
(c) Removal of Notice.-Protection under this title is not
affected by the removal, destruction, or obliteration of the
notice, without the authorization of the copyright owner, from
any publicly distributed copies or phonorecords.
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R1 -- stored, 07:15:49 05/03/02 Fri
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
GerryB.
In Response To Murray
Friday May 3, 2002 at 8:58
Good morning, brother.
Looks like you and I are the only ones who are conscious this morning.
Murray
In Response To Gerry
Friday May 3, 2002 at 8:51
Good Morning!
GerryB.
Friday May 3, 2002 at 8:36
Not much activity last night. I wonder what those people on the "Theology discussion board"
are going to have to gossip about. Gee, they might even have to talk about theological issues.
What a happy thought.
BTW Good morning.
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 23:50
Hand fishing? I prefer a nice rod and reel and salmon eggs or worms. The worms don't
like it much though... ;)
I usually flyfish myself, but there's nothing like handfishing to "get in touch" with nature. (Water
moccasins swim, too.)
GerryB.
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 23:35
RE: "I'm heading out the door for Terre Haute and probably won't be around much for the
weekend, so you're officially in charge for the next shift. *-) See ya Sunday!"
What makes you think that anyone is in charge here? Beside I have things to do away from
here. I have a life away from this forum, you know. BTW Have fun.
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 22:51
I know what mystical means and I have experienced and do experience the mystical side of
Christianity. However, this inner work has a distinct purpose as it works its way into and
through your life. It is this that you have missed and you substitute a mystical vagueness for
something that has a very specific outworking in one's life. Therefore, you have obviously
missed the true Holy Spirit that brings people to repentance and into deep and abiding faith
and reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, not being in that Spirit, you do not see that it
was this same Spirit that brought the Scriptures forth. Therefore, you trash reverence for the
Lord and disbelieve the Scriptures as well.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Re: Nature
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 22:40
Nature as a witness to god's glory is repeated in the Bible many times:
Ps 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows his handiwork." Ps
8:3-4 "When I consider the heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which
thou has t ordained; what is man that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou
visiteth him?" ... who can be in nature and not realize that God is there?
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 21:53
If you don't realize that the HS was in men's souls long before Jesus was on Earth, you have
overlooked something important...and if you don't believe that the message of Jesus about
being born of the Spirit and worshipping in the spirit was mystical then you've again missed
something.
BTW Sticks and stones, Bro. Murray! :p
*Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 21:49
Hand fishing? I prefer a nice rod and reel and salmon eggs or worms. The worms don't like it
much though... ;) BTW cotton mouth rattlers swim, but you won't find them in California or
Colorado, lucky for us.
`Ctaj
In Response To Stephen James
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 14:18
The only thing Jesus did that you can prove was to die, just like every man.
Not really. There's no conclusive proof that he was even born, much less exactly when he
died.
dori
In Response To Gerry
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 14:11
I'm heading out the door for Terre Haute and probably won't be around much for the
weekend, so you're officially in charge for the next shift. *-) See ya Sunday!
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 14:03
The only correct path is no path. So pick any path you please, they are all the same once the
lights go out.
dori
In Response To Stephen
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:53
I have a lot of people telling me what path to choose. I have some who tell me God is
everywhere and Christians are rigid and judgmental to try to force their way on me. I have
Christian friends telling me to stay away from all those universalists who would lead me down
the path to destruction. I have other people telling me that to have faith in God is a waste of my
intelligence and I shouldn't be left unattended I'm so stupid. What it all boils down to is--it's
just between God and me. And God and you can work out YOUR path. 8-)
Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:16
"And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!"
Walk the Path that Murray wishes you to walk and God will Love you and the Gates of
Heaven will open wide in acceptance of you.
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:10
"Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came
down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation."
Truth and fact eh? Sorry, but I find I must heap mud and dung on your "truth" and "fact"...Tell
the people the real Truth. Your "truth and facts" are nothing but assumptions, speculations and
outright lies.
The only thing Jesus did that you can prove was to die, just like every man. Big deal. Sin is still
here and I could care less that you live in a fantasy world in which you believe Jesus took care
of things, the clear truth is that the BibleGod is a bungler who can't even get rid of the sinners
with a flood. IMO
Stephen James
In Response To Coinky/Forum
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:54
In Reagan's 1987 proclamation, he stated, "On our National Day of Prayer, then, we join
together as people of many faiths to petition God to show us His mercy and His love, to heal
our weariness and uphold our hope, that we might live ever mindful of His justice and thankful
for His blessing."
Notice there is no mention of the word "Christian" here, instead we see "many faiths". I found a
couple of web sites where Christians are trying to turn it into a "national Christian Day of
Prayer". Typical divisionists, seeking to instigate hate where ever they go...
Today I will pray for the Christian religion...I will pray that they feel the Love of God as it is
apparent the religion is sorely lacking in that area.
`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:45
He should also hold out the same reward for whomever "proves" Creation.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:36
"prove evolution"...
Scientific theories are not "proven", so that man's false offer is safe. He's in no fear of losing
any money.
If he wanted to be useful, he should pay if evolution is disproved. Than that is will be. Too
many observed facts can only be explained by Evolution, and any ascending theory will
incorporate most of what is in the current Theory of Evolution as a subset, much as Einstein's
Special Relativity (E=MC^2) is a consistent subset of the broader General Relativity, or how
Newtonian Gravity is a subset of General Relativity.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:34
And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!
And none of this Jesus- came-and-dealt-with-all-sin-once-and-for-all rubbish from you, young
man.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:31
Only biblical Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact
that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation.
That's what you want to hear, but that doesn't make it Truth.
Murray
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:22
Great! If you pick Him, stay with Him. Show deep reverence for Him. He gave his life for you
and He deserves that. And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!
dori
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:16
Yep, he's my pick, too. Have a nice weekend. I'm not going to be online much til Sunday
night. Peace!
Murray
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:10
I'll stick with Jesus, thank you. A deep reverence for Him and a very high esteem of the
Scriptures has given the world the finest and most admirable people I have ever met or heard
about. I have deeply studied other religions and their claims and found them to be nothing. All
of them teach a ladder to God, a religion of self effort, and none of them deal squarely and
effectively with the sin issue, which is HUGE. Only biblical Christianity teaches the truth that
there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue
once and for all can we have salvation. So, I'll stick with that and humbly implore your to do
likewise.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:03
As far as the nature thing is concerned, I think that is a comment Jeanie made.
And Stephen James. And me. And Thomas Paine. And Thomas Jefferson.
I think your Jesus monopoly is presumptuous. If I were God, I would make my presence
known to all men through their consciousness and through their observations and experiences
in nature. I certainly wouldn't delegate it to man, or to any group of men. And I certainly
wouldn't confine it to one single man-made book.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:53
Thanks! I was asserting that it is not only conceivable that God is sending the Holy Spirit to all
tribes, but that He is actually doing it through the Great Commission. The Great Commission,
of course, is the fulfillment by the church of Christ's command to spread his Gospel to every
tribe and nation on earth. Therefore, through this, it is not only conceivable that the Holy Spirit
goes forth to various tribes and groups, but, through the Great Commission, He actually does
so through the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus. As far as the nature thing is concerned, I think
that is a comment Jeanie made.
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R1 -- stored, 07:12:16 05/03/02 Fri
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
dori
In Response To Come on, Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:37
Your comment to Coinky breaks your personal rule of civility:
"All you ever talk about is a mystical vagueness and a fuzzy, sappy universalism, both of which
I find sickening."
Is that necessary? I'm the one who picks on her here, darn it!!! But, seriously, although I have
a bit of trouble accepting a lot of the fuzzy things she says, I do understand what she is saying
and agree with her on many of the points you call "universalism." God IS bigger than Christians
make Him.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:29
Go for it. I don't have enough rope.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:23
OK, so do I get a chance to clarify or do you wish to string me up for an apparent
contradiction?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:09
Yes, it is conceivable that He would have done that. In fact, He is doing it. It's called the
Great Commission. And, yes, Jesus does have a monopoly.
You're contradicting yourself. If God sent the Holy Spirit also in the form of Buddha and
Mohammed, then Jesus doesn't have a monopoly. If the Holy Spirit is to be found in the
wonders of Nature, then Jesus certainly doesn't.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:50
Yes, it is conceivable that He would have done that. In fact, He is doing it. It's called the Great
Commission. And, yes, Jesus does have a monopoly. He is the only Savior. He bore our lives
upon Himself on the cross and an exchange was made there so we could have his life. That we
could become partakers of the divine nature. That we could have a visceral experience of the
love of God. Everything else is just hokey, superficial sentiment or religious jargon and doctrine
with no ability to deeply impact and transform a person's life. He made the whole thing so big
that we couldn't possibly miss it. Every time the date is written, it is a testimony to Him. It even
hit you to the extent you are willing, with a qualifier, to call yourself a Christian.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:26
I don't know what Holy Spirit you are talking about, but the one I know is the one Jesus
said the Father would send in His name. (John 14:26)
And I guess it's inconceivable to you that He might have also sent that same Holy Spirit to
other tribes of folks in other names, such as Buddha, Mohammed, Hari Krishna, Amen, etc.,
etc.
Is the objective a love of God and the mankind of his creation? Or is the objective a monopoly
on the market?
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:21
To succeed, you just have to force your Reason to triumph over your Emotion, especially
Fear. You have to convince yourself that snakes don't live under water. At least rattelsnakes
don't.
Do they??
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink 9:40
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:21
The only sense I draw from your last comment to me is that what you have not entered into
yourself you do not see in others. A couple of definitive earmarks of a Christian is a person
who manifests deep reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ and a high esteem for the Scriptures. I
think George Fox captured the proper view of Scripture when he attested to being in the Spirit
that brought them forth and that what the Spirit taught him was in agreement with what was
written there. All you ever talk about is a mystical vagueness and a fuzzy, sappy universalism,
both of which I find sickening. I don't know what Holy Spirit you are talking about, but the one
I know is the one Jesus said the Father would send in His name. (John 14:26)
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:16
Handfishing takes practice. The first several times you feel a fish you have a tendency to jerk
your hands back. It's awfully hard to tell the difference under water between the skin of a fish
and the skin of a snake.
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:10
I remember sitting as a child on a rock in the center of a running stream... it took my soul
out of the cares of the world and I felt god was there with me.
Try "handfishing" sometime. Find a curve in a mountain stream where the water is about 4'
deep and the bank is undercut by the water. Fish like to hide in the undercut in the bank. If you
wade up slowly and carefully, and move your hands along the banks, sometimes you can catch
a trout, if you don't jump when you feel it.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:40
I think one thing that has prevented the church from being what it was intended by Jesus, is
that the focus was shifted from one of a mystical experience of God within the soul of the
believer, which produces a major change in that person...to learning about God and interacting
through an intermediary (a priest or minister), which makes it a performance of the mind, not
the soul and prevents the HS from making the change in most cases. Many of those Christians
probably still were able to interface directly with the HS and were really changed, but the vast
majority of christians, IMO, have just gone through the motions and attended church, took
communion and remained basically the same as before.
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The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
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Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:29
"...with the indwelling HS, you'd think this would be a natural developement in the church and would already be evident from the time of Jesus til now."
The things God does and how He does them are not how we think they should be, Jeanie. Yes, there is evidence of these things now, but you have to search them out if you want to see them. What I am talking about is something that will be very widespread. At that point, everyone will be without an excuse. Either join in or be left behind.
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The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)
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MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 14:03
The only correct path is no path. So pick any path you please, they are all the same once the lights go out.
dori
In Response To Stephen
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:53
I have a lot of people telling me what path to choose. I have some who tell me God is everywhere and Christians are rigid and judgmental to try to force their way on me. I have Christian friends telling me to stay away from all those universalists who would lead me down the path to destruction. I have other people telling me that to have faith in God is a waste of my intelligence and I shouldn't be left unattended I'm so stupid. What it all boils down to is--it's just between God and me. And God and you can work out YOUR path. 8-)
Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:16
"And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!"
Walk the Path that Murray wishes you to walk and God will Love you and the Gates of Heaven will open wide in acceptance of you.
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 13:10
"Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation."
Truth and fact eh? Sorry, but I find I must heap mud and dung on your "truth" and "fact"...Tell the people the real Truth. Your "truth and facts" are nothing but assumptions, speculations and outright lies.
The only thing Jesus did that you can prove was to die, just like every man. Big deal. Sin is still here and I could care less that you live in a fantasy world in which you believe Jesus took care of things, the clear truth is that the BibleGod is a bungler who can't even get rid of the sinners with a flood. IMO
Stephen James
In Response To Coinky/Forum
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:54
In Reagan's 1987 proclamation, he stated, "On our National Day of Prayer, then, we join together as people of many faiths to petition God to show us His mercy and His love, to heal our weariness and uphold our hope, that we might live ever mindful of His justice and thankful for His blessing."
Notice there is no mention of the word "Christian" here, instead we see "many faiths". I found a couple of web sites where Christians are trying to turn it into a "national Christian Day of Prayer". Typical divisionists, seeking to instigate hate where ever they go...
Today I will pray for the Christian religion...I will pray that they feel the Love of God as it is apparent the religion is sorely lacking in that area.
`Ctaj
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:45
He should also hold out the same reward for whomever "proves" Creation.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:36
"prove evolution"...
Scientific theories are not "proven", so that man's false offer is safe. He's in no fear of losing any money.
If he wanted to be useful, he should pay if evolution is disproved. Than that is will be. Too many observed facts can only be explained by Evolution, and any ascending theory will incorporate most of what is in the current Theory of Evolution as a subset, much as Einstein's Special Relativity (E=MC^2) is a consistent subset of the broader General Relativity, or how Newtonian Gravity is a subset of General Relativity.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:34
And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!
And none of this Jesus- came-and-dealt-with-all-sin-once-and-for-all rubbish from you, young man.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:31
Only biblical Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation.
That's what you want to hear, but that doesn't make it Truth.
Murray
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:22
Great! If you pick Him, stay with Him. Show deep reverence for Him. He gave his life for you and He deserves that. And, no more of this universalism rubbish from you, young lady!
dori
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:16
Yep, he's my pick, too. Have a nice weekend. I'm not going to be online much til Sunday night. Peace!
Murray
In Response To dori
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:10
I'll stick with Jesus, thank you. A deep reverence for Him and a very high esteem of the Scriptures has given the world the finest and most admirable people I have ever met or heard about. I have deeply studied other religions and their claims and found them to be nothing. All of them teach a ladder to God, a religion of self effort, and none of them deal squarely and effectively with the sin issue, which is HUGE. Only biblical Christianity teaches the truth that there is no ladder up and only by the fact that Jesus came down and dealt with the sin issue once and for all can we have salvation. So, I'll stick with that and humbly implore your to do likewise.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 12:03
As far as the nature thing is concerned, I think that is a comment Jeanie made.
And Stephen James. And me. And Thomas Paine. And Thomas Jefferson.
I think your Jesus monopoly is presumptuous. If I were God, I would make my presence known to all men through their consciousness and through their observations and experiences in nature. I certainly wouldn't delegate it to man, or to any group of men. And I certainly wouldn't confine it to one single man-made book.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:53
Thanks! I was asserting that it is not only conceivable that God is sending the Holy Spirit to all tribes, but that He is actually doing it through the Great Commission. The Great Commission, of course, is the fulfillment by the church of Christ's command to spread his Gospel to every tribe and nation on earth. Therefore, through this, it is not only conceivable that the Holy Spirit goes forth to various tribes and groups, but, through the Great Commission, He actually does so through the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus. As far as the nature thing is concerned, I think that is a comment Jeanie made.
dori
In Response To Come on, Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:37
Your comment to Coinky breaks your personal rule of civility:
"All you ever talk about is a mystical vagueness and a fuzzy, sappy universalism, both of which I find sickening."
Is that necessary? I'm the one who picks on her here, darn it!!! But, seriously, although I have a bit of trouble accepting a lot of the fuzzy things she says, I do understand what she is saying and agree with her on many of the points you call "universalism." God IS bigger than Christians make Him.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:29
Go for it. I don't have enough rope.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:23
OK, so do I get a chance to clarify or do you wish to string me up for an apparent contradiction?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 11:09
Yes, it is conceivable that He would have done that. In fact, He is doing it. It's called the Great Commission. And, yes, Jesus does have a monopoly.
You're contradicting yourself. If God sent the Holy Spirit also in the form of Buddha and Mohammed, then Jesus doesn't have a monopoly. If the Holy Spirit is to be found in the wonders of Nature, then Jesus certainly doesn't.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:50
Yes, it is conceivable that He would have done that. In fact, He is doing it. It's called the Great Commission. And, yes, Jesus does have a monopoly. He is the only Savior. He bore our lives upon Himself on the cross and an exchange was made there so we could have his life. That we could become partakers of the divine nature. That we could have a visceral experience of the love of God. Everything else is just hokey, superficial sentiment or religious jargon and doctrine with no ability to deeply impact and transform a person's life. He made the whole thing so big that we couldn't possibly miss it. Every time the date is written, it is a testimony to Him. It even hit you to the extent you are willing, with a qualifier, to call yourself a Christian.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:26
I don't know what Holy Spirit you are talking about, but the one I know is the one Jesus said the Father would send in His name. (John 14:26)
And I guess it's inconceivable to you that He might have also sent that same Holy Spirit to other tribes of folks in other names, such as Buddha, Mohammed, Hari Krishna, Amen, etc., etc.
Is the objective a love of God and the mankind of his creation? Or is the objective a monopoly on the market?
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:21
To succeed, you just have to force your Reason to triumph over your Emotion, especially Fear. You have to convince yourself that snakes don't live under water. At least rattelsnakes don't.
Do they??
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink 9:40
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:21
The only sense I draw from your last comment to me is that what you have not entered into yourself you do not see in others. A couple of definitive earmarks of a Christian is a person who manifests deep reverence for the Lord Jesus Christ and a high esteem for the Scriptures. I think George Fox captured the proper view of Scripture when he attested to being in the Spirit that brought them forth and that what the Spirit taught him was in agreement with what was written there. All you ever talk about is a mystical vagueness and a fuzzy, sappy universalism, both of which I find sickening. I don't know what Holy Spirit you are talking about, but the one I know is the one Jesus said the Father would send in His name. (John 14:26)
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:16
Handfishing takes practice. The first several times you feel a fish you have a tendency to jerk your hands back. It's awfully hard to tell the difference under water between the skin of a fish and the skin of a snake.
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 10:10
I remember sitting as a child on a rock in the center of a running stream... it took my soul out of the cares of the world and I felt god was there with me.
Try "handfishing" sometime. Find a curve in a mountain stream where the water is about 4' deep and the bank is undercut by the water. Fish like to hide in the undercut in the bank. If you wade up slowly and carefully, and move your hands along the banks, sometimes you can catch a trout, if you don't jump when you feel it.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:40
I think one thing that has prevented the church from being what it was intended by Jesus, is that the focus was shifted from one of a mystical experience of God within the soul of the believer, which produces a major change in that person...to learning about God and interacting through an intermediary (a priest or minister), which makes it a performance of the mind, not the soul and prevents the HS from making the change in most cases. Many of those Christians probably still were able to interface directly with the HS and were really changed, but the vast majority of christians, IMO, have just gone through the motions and attended church, took communion and remained basically the same as before.
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Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Ya'll
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:25
The missing child notice that I e-mailed out has been declared a hoax. Here is a website about
it:
http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/children/penny.htm
*Coinkydink
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:24
You can see evidence of evolution within a species. Look at dog breeding. Also people have
gotten bigger and have several other changes just in the last 100 years. The little vietnamese
children that are 2nd and 3rd generation Americans are considerably bigger than their parents
due to nutritional changes.
GerryB.
In Response To Jeanie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:23
The first National DAY of Prayer was declared during the presidency of George Washington,
I believe. I found several sites telling about it. Here is one:
http://www.lesea.com/ndp/home.htm
*Coinkydink
In Response To Connie
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:21
Evolution as taught by some people is a hoax. There is no evidence that one species can
evolve into a completely different one. There is evidence that some species are so closely
related that they could have come form a common ancester like the chimp and man, whose
dna is so close that they probably could mate and produce offspring. Cats and rabbits are
closely related too, I think, anyway I've heard of hybrids. Natural selection is an interesting
theory and I think has "some" merit, but I don't think any theory except creation or implantation
of life on this planet makes much sense on it's own.
Connie
In Response To Ctaj/TMS/Stephen
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:07
Here's your chance. Go for it. Prove Evolution: Win $250,000
*Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:07
Hi, Gerry. I never heard of national prayer day... when did this start? It would be nice if we
prayed for peace. I think I'll e-mail the Pres. and tell him that.
Connie
In Response To Morning Gerry
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:06
Beat ya to it. I already did...smile! How's it going with you and Willy? Any chance of rain?
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:05
It seems to me that this revival would be a good thing...but can you name any other time in
history when this kind of thing was evident in the church? I don't recall anything like this being
prophesied. Also with the indwelling HS, you'd think this would be a natural developement in
the church and would already be evident from the time of Jesus til now.
GerryB.
In Response To Murray
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:03
Good morning, brother.
How are things with you today? I trust that you will be spending a portion of your day in
prayers of thanksgiving.
GerryB.
In Response To Thursday May 2, 2002
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 9:00
Is the national day of prayer. I hope that every one will spend a part of the day in prayers of
thanksgiving to God for all the wonderful blessings that He has given to us.
"14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek
my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their
sin, and will heal their land."
2 Chronicles 7:14(KJV).
GerryB.
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 8:54
"19We love him, because he first loved us."
1 John 4:19(KJV).
I don't see anything about being commanded to love God. It is entirely voluntary. Just
remember that He loved us first. In fact he loved us so much that "16For God so loved the
world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life."
John 3:16(KJV).
Man that is real love.
Murray
In Response To Revival Part 2
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 8:43
3.) Because God is love, there will be a much greater intensity of the love of God in the lives of
believers manifesting itself within our churches and homes, but spilling out across so-called
denominational lines and into the world at large. This will fulfill the prediction of Jesus when He
said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John
13:35)
4.) All of the above will be noticed and reported upon with amazement in the press. Many
people will actually flock to the churches because of what they hear, see and read in secular
press reports.
Murray
In Response To Revival Part 1
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 8:43
Much is being said these days about the scandals in the church and what the future might hold.
Because the church belongs to God and not to man, I believe that the Lord Himself will step
into the picture to bring about what has become known historically as a revival. I believe this
revival will bring about the following:
1.) A much greater awareness of the presence and power of God at all times in the lives of
believers.
2.) Accompanying this will be a marked increase in miracles and of other manifestations and
gifts of the Spirit.
(contined)
Murray
In Response To re: George Fox
Thursday May 2, 2002 at 7:56
I'm not deeply involved in theology or theological nuance, so I intentionally did not address the
issue of 'sola scriptura.' I believe, however, that George Fox had Scripture in the proper
perspective as he pretty much did with everything else. He said he found the Scriptures to be
precious. Also, he attested to being in the Spirit that brought them forth and that what the Spirit
taught him was in agreement with what was written there. In this and in the totality of his
writings, he is a true fundamental Christian because of his deep reverence for the Lord Jesus
Christ and his esteem of the Scriptures. Also, he is no universalist in that he expressly disallows
any other basis of faith.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Jeff
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 22:48
I think you're right that a lot can be known about God by observing the creation... and God
can be felt in nature too. I remember sitting as a child on a rock in the center of a running
stream... it took my soul out of the cares of the world and I felt god was there with me.
Perhaps to some hardnoses, I was just an over-imaginative child, but to me it was precious.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 22:45
It would be safe to say that George fox was NOT a sola scriptura man... One of his main
points of contention with the "church" in england was that they denied that the HS could speak
directly to the souls of man in this dispensation.
I remember being taught about the dispensations and timelines of Gods plan and thought it was
hogwash then... I haven't read or seen anything to change that opinion...but I do try to keep an
open mind. Doctrines are man's interpretations of divine contact with the HS...hopefully they
are, anyway. Some may just be hogwash...who knows?
*Coinkydink
In Response To Inqui
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 22:35
I saw a documentary about how the brain of men is wired, which said that they cannot easily
talk about emotions at the same time they are feeling them intensely, because right and left
brain activity isn't wired that way. I believe that our souls are wired to operate that way in
relation to the brain. We need to open the soul and quiet the mind to experience God, then
later we can think about what has happened and attempt to put it into words. IMO, which
really doesn't carry any weight here, ya know... :)
*Coinkydink
In Response To Inqui
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 22:32
"When one reads the bible, it must be done with an open heart, as well as an open mind." I
would say it differently...One must keep an active mind when reading any book about God,
but when seeking God himself, one needs to keep the soul open. I am not a sola scriptura
believer... I believe that god speak directly to the soul through the Holy Spirit. To believe one
can only reach god through the scriptures, closes the soul and opens the mind, almost insuring
that no contact will ever be made with the Spirit.
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Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 15:07
Good point, Jeff. It's really much more of an adventure than a stale theological treatise.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 12:42
You don't need a book for that. Take a back-pack trip along the Continental Divide for a
week or so.
Murray
In Response To SJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 12:24
I very much like what Quaker founder George Fox said about Scripture, which was:
Yet I had no slight esteem of the holy Scriptures. They were very precious to me; for I was in
that Spirit by which they were given forth; and what the Lord opened in me I afterwards found
was agreeable to them. I could speak much of these things, and many volumes might be written
upon them; but all would prove too short to set forth the infinite love, wisdom, and power of
God, in preparing, fitting, and furnishing me for the service to which He had appointed me;
letting me see the depths of Satan on the one hand, and opening to me, on the other hand, the
divine mysteries of His own everlasting kingdom.
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 12:10
Why the reluctance to take the opportunity to explain one of Protestantisms doctrines? Do you
agree with the concepts of "sola scriptura" or do you think it was a bunch of hooey?
Do we humans ONLY need the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting and understanding
the Bible? Or do we need guys like you to hold our hands and walk us through it?
Stephen James
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 12:04
You need to be more specific with your judgement labels...the term is "BibleGod Haters" not
"God haters". I realize you are trying your best to pass lies off as truth, but the truth is that there
is the BibleGod who only exists in the minds of the men who created Her/Him...and then there
is the Real God, whose Nature can never be defined by such a stupid being as Man.
I love the RealGod...but I hate the BibleGod. Nothing wrong with hating a God that does not
exist or in hating a depiction of God which is Evil. The BibleGod is Evil. Good thing that
version of God is a Lie. IMO
Stephen James
In Response To They are all corrupt...
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:52
Http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20020306sally104col2p2.asp
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:44
I like the Apostle Paul have no interest in impressing or pleasing men.
Congratulations on your spectacular success.
GerryB.
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:41
"10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men,
I should not be the servant of Christ. 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was
preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but
by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Galtians 1:10-12.
I like the Apostle Paul have no interest in impressing or pleasing men. I only want to serve God
in whatever capacity He decides to use me.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:33
You would be surprised at the things which I've managed to learn in my long life time.
You've managed to hide it so far. So, surprise me.
~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:26
If you open your heart, you will bleed to death.
Smart alec! :)
Murray
In Response To dori huh?
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:23
So, in other words, by reiterating it, you demonstrate your wish to have the point you made
about a quiet forum stand alone. Correct?
GerryB.
In Response To CTAJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:21
"Nobody's gonna believe that "attribution" is part of your vocabulary."
You would be surprised at the things which I've managed to learn in my long life time.
dori
In Response To Murray and Gerry
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 11:03
Murray: My reading comprehension is fine. I merely agreed with what you said, which I'm
finding gets me in hot water with you, and reiterated why I made the opening statement upon
happening on a quiet forum. *-)
Gerry: Well, I guess a little is better than none, eh? I hope you will receive more. The prayers
will still be coming your way.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:57
Gerry to Dori: That long article that you posted called, "Sola Scriptura" wasn't original
with you. It was written by someone else and you posted it without attribution.
I think you cut and pasted that without attribution. Nobody's gonna believe that "attribution" is
part of your vocabulary.
GerryB.
In Response To Jeanie
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:55
RE: "No one who posts here hates God either. You need to get to know your fellow posters
better.."
"30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
Matthew 12:30(KJV).
"18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you."
John 15:18(KJV).
It seems that God knows His enemies better than you know them.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:54
I'm not a debater. I was too busy learning important things in High School to bother with
foolishness like debating. I just express my honest opinions. That is my honest opinion of
most of what you post here.
You know what they say ... opinions are like a**holes: everybody's got one. But it ain't worth
much unless you can back it up. Something you admit you aren't good at.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:51
GerryB
In Response To CTAJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:03
That is strange. I read the entire PP forum for this day a few minutes ago and don't
remember seeing anything posted which suggested "lopping their heads off." However,
you might be right.
OK, so my "lopping heads off" was a paraphrase.
GerryB.
In Response To CTAJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:45
Why did you address that "goldbuggy" post to me? I'm not a Roman Catholic. I disagree with
most of what they teach.
GerryB.
In Response To CTAJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:43
RE: "But if the best you can come up with is "HOGWASH!", that isn't debate."
I'm not a debater. I was too busy learning important things in High School to bother with
foolishness like debating. I just express my honest opinions. That is my honest opinion of most
of what you post here.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:39
By the way, with regard to the Goldbuggy post, it should be noted that the ONLY comment
about it from anyone was from Dori, who posted a profound, "LOL!".
GerryB.
In Response To dori
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:38
We've had rain over the past few days. Not enough. It is not helping the reservoirs much. We
need a lot more to just get caught up. Once the growing season really gets under way and the
hot weather gets here what we have had will soon be gone.
GerryB.
In Response To dori
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:38
We've had rain over the past few days. Not enough. It is not helping the reservoirs much. We
need a lot more to just get caught up. One the growing season really gets under way and the
hot weather gets here what we have had will soon be gone.
Murray
In Response To dori P.S.
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:38
Just read it a little S-L-O-W=E=R this time. *-)
`Ctaj
In Response To Ten Megaton Solution
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:37
But basically, it's hard to justify sola scriptura on it's face, since everyone knows there are
apocryphal texts, and that some committee picked and chose which ones were included in
today's Bible.
Ah, but they used the magic words, "guided by the Holy Spirit," so you have to accept it as
authoritative.
Murray
In Response To dori
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:34
"Very true words, my friend, but peace, no matter how transient, is desirable on occasion,
wouldn't you agree?"
I anticipated this question from you, Doris and, so, I gave my answer before you even asked.
*-) If you read my 9:54 one more time, you will see it.
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R1 -- stored, 13:57:22 05/01/02 Wed
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:14
When one reads the bible, it must be done with an open heart, as well as an open mind.
Contrary to biblical misconception, one thinks with one's brain, not one's heart. If you open
your heart, you will bleed to death.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:09
I have, on the other hand, been accused of being intolerant for simply suggesting that the
comments of an poster were in error. Actually there are those here who would contend
that the use of the word "wrong" is intolerant.
I don't mind being criticized for my views. I come here to debate and argue. But if the best you
can come up with is "HOGWASH!", that isn't debate. That's imbecilic behavior.
If it's hogwash, explain why it's hogwash.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:03
Wanna lay a little side wager as to what religion Mr. Goldbuggy professes himself to be?
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:02
Goldbuggy
In Response To All
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:57
If the Catholic Church has anything to be ashamed of it is accepting the queers of society into
it's inner circles. The controlling diocese are now infested with these perverts and the church is
now reaping the consequences. Right back to what I have always advocated. There should be
a season on queers and every hunter should have one of their heads mounted over their
mantles. Assuming of course you could cut the heads off without getting AIDS.
dori
In Response To Murray
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 10:01
Very true words, my friend, but peace, no matter how transient, is desirable on occasion,
wouldn't you agree? Just a respite now and then. Did you care to conjecture as to why
Stephen asked you twice for your definition of Sola Scriptura? I kept wondering myself...
Smile...
Murray
In Response To dori
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:54
Good Morning!
Jesus never promised us circumstantial peace, my friend. He promised us inner peace. If we
primarily look outwardly to see how our circumstances are working out, we will miss what He
is doing to give us peace inwardly.
Sure, circumstances can be favorable for short periods of time. Sure, it's nice when that
happens. No question. But, when we live our lives by the words of Jesus, we seriously don't
care which way they are. In fact, we can even live to appreciate the tougher circumstances
even more than the placid ones because it is then that He will show himself to be greater than
them. Think of it in terms of Psalm 23. If there are no enemies, there is no need for Him to
prepare a table for us in the midst of them.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Thanks anyway
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:45
I need to go feed the grumpy old man and the grumpy ol' baby...I think I'll take them both to
the park and cheer them up! :)
dori
In Response To Inq-ee
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:42
Well, enjoy that day, sugah. It is going to be stormy here all day. Think of me while you're out
basking in that great sunshine, okay? Luvs ya!
~Inquisitive~
In Response To Dori/ CD
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:37
I doubt I'll be on msn. It's a beautiful day and I've already been out and done some yard
work..had to have a break so I popped in here. :)
Have a good day though!
Good morning, CD!..I have no idea watcha talkin' 'bout. Thought that stuff was already there
with the email. Perhaps someone else will know. I'm a dumb dumb when it comes to
computers..and a few other things. LOL
dori
In Response To Coinky
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:35
Sorry, I don't know. Usually if you need a plug-in they'll tell you and offer to download it. You
might need to have the person who sent the pictures to save them in another format and
resend. Have a great day. Outta here!
dori
In Response To Heigh ho...
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:33
... heigh ho, it's off to work I go. Laterz!
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori & Inq
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:31
Good Morning! I'm having trouble downloading pictures from my e-mail. Do you know what
plug-in I need?
*Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:29
Good Morning! You said, "The God haters will show up soon enough." No one who posts
here hates God either. You need to get to know your fellow posters better... I think you're
reading something that isn't there.
dori
In Response To Hi Inq!
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:26
A blessed good morning to you, too! It is so nice to see your shining face at this dreary little
place. *-) I am heading off to work in a bit, but I'll put MSN on when I get there to say hi if
you think of putting it on later.
~Inquisitive~
In Response To Good morning
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:23
Dori and Gerry! :)
dori
In Response To Gerry
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:20
Who knows. Maybe they slept in... grin. Good morning! I looked at the weather for the last
couple of days and can't tell if you've gotten that much needed rain they promised. I've been
praying for you.
GerryB.
In Response To dori
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:16
Good morning, Doris. It won't remain that way long. The God haters will show up soon
enough.
dori
In Response To Wow!
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 9:07
All is at peace in the Religion Forum today, it seems. What a nice change!
dori
In Response To TB2
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 2:20
Was reading the archives of Many Paths 1 and reminiscing about the good old days when you
were my reluctant sage and minder was the person who opened up my mind to the meaning of
spirituality in its highest form. I sure wish he was still around.
Although I have since made my choice to go with the thumpers and attest to Christ in my life, I
did enjoy his thoughts on life and God's presence in it. He is a very wise man. Sigh... peace
Timbuctoo
In Response To The Philosophers in general :)
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 1:36
Ref: "Also what has happened to TB2 in general?" ~~~ A hard drive crash and great weather
outside ... :)... Would someone eMail me Stephen's forum ulr's ... Thax ... :)
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 1:30
But basically, it's hard to justify sola scriptura on it's face, since everyone knows there are
apocryphal texts, and that some committee picked and chose which ones were included in
today's Bible.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 1:25
Thanks for the sola scriptura lecture. Most informative and a fertile fount of thought.
dori
In Response To Coinky and Gerry
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 1:00
Coinky: Here's the site: www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/sola.html
Gerry The man who wrote it was George Sim Johnston. I assume he is a Catholic contributor
to their site. Do you have any comments to make about what was said?
dori
In Response To Gerry and Coinky
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:54
I'm sorry... I was in a hurry to get it all in before I had to leave. I got the information from
doing a google search. They had a lot of sites. I'm not sure which one it was, but if it's
important to you I can go back and look. I'm sure you knew it was from a Catholic source. I'll
be sure to quote my source the next time I give such a lengthy posting. I usually do.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Gerry
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:09
I'm sure that none of the people who post here hate one another...sometimes tempers get
heated up or feelings get hurt, but it blows over in time. Gotta go now...bedtime...sleep well.
Good night.
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R1 -- stored, 13:53:16 05/01/02 Wed
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Stephen
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:06
Sometimes in these discussions about the Bible, it seems like a battle between Source A and
source B, not really between the two people posting here, but between their sources or who
they have been reading. A lot of cutting and pasting.
What has happened to You and TB2 at S'htap? I've been lonely in there! Also what has
happened to TB2 in general?
GerryB.
In Response To CTAJ
Wednesday May 1, 2002 at 0:03
That is strange. I read the entire PP forum for this day a few minutes ago and don't remember
seeing anything posted which suggested "lopping their heads off." However, you might be right.
Yes, I would consider any post which suggests doing violence to someone's person to be "hate
speech." Of course I'm certain that you know that I wasn't suggesting that we should tolerate
"hate speech." I have, on the other hand, been accused of being intolerant for simply suggesting
that the comments of an poster were in error. Actually there are those here who would
contend that the use of the word "wrong" is intolerant.
GerryB.
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:53
That long article that you posted called, "Sola Scriptura" wasn't original with you. It was
written by someone else and you posted it without attribution. I believe that you should indicate
where it came from.
Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:50
Thanx for your answer concerning "sola scriptura"...I was hoping to hear Murray's perspective
as he seem to have such a problem with the way some people come to their Biblical
conclusions. I guess we shant be so lucky...
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori & Ya'll
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:27
I have several reference books that I have found useful. "Oxford Companion to the Bible",
"The Bible in Cross-Cultural Perspective", The Text of the New Testament, It's transmission,
Corruption and Restoration" by Metzger, "Who Wrote the new Testament" and Quaker
Spirituality (Selected Writings) and several online sites for the apocryphal books, "The sayings
of Jesus and Buddha", "One River, Many Wells" by M. Fox and the Jefferson Bible.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 23:21
Where did you get the info about who put together the scriptures...I'd like to read your source.
Is it online?
~Dr. Lucy~
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 22:38
Get a good shot of the love of God into you and the sin gets driven out of your life -- you
just start acting right.
That is the truth!
dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:18
The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority--sola scriptura --is nowhere
to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an
understatement), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And,
in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation. Newman called the idea that God would let
fifteen hundred years pass before revealing that the bible was the sole teaching authority for
Christians an "intolerable paradox."
dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:16
Luther's real motive was to get rid of Second Maccabees, which teaches the doctrine of
Purgatory. He also wanted to drop the Letter of James, which he called "an epistle of straw,"
because it flatly contradicts the idea of salvation by "faith alone" apart from good works. He
was restrained by more cautious Reformers. Instead, he mistranslated numerous New
Testament passages, most notoriously Romans 3:28, to buttress his polemical position.
dori
In Response To Sola Scripture
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:06
But, according to Protestants, the Catholic Church was corrupt and idolatrous by the fourth
century and so had lost whatever authority it originally had. On what basis, then, do they
accept the canon of the New Testament? Luther and Calvin were both fuzzy on the subject.
Luther dropped seven books from the Old Testament, the so-called Apocrypha in the
Protestant Bible; his pretext for doing so was that orthodox Jews had done it at the synod of
Jamnia around 100 A. D.; but that synod was explicitly anti-Christian, and so its decisions
about Scripture make an odd benchmark for Christians.
dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:05
Who, then, decided that it was Scripture? The Catholic Church. And it took several centuries
to do so. It was not until the Council of Carthage (397) and a subsequent decree by Pope
Innocent I that Christendom had a fixed New Testament canon. Prior to that date, scores of
spurious gospels and "apostolic" writings were floating around the Mediterranean basin: the
Gospel of Thomas, the "Shepherd" of Hermas, St. Paul's Letter to the Laodiceans, and so
forth. Moreover, some texts later judged to be inspired, such as the Letter to the Hebrews,
were controverted. It was the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, which separated the
wheat from the chaff.
dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:04
Such arguments would have perplexed a first or second century Christian, most of whom
never saw a Bible.
Christ founded a teaching Church. So far as we know, he himself never wrote a word (except
on sand). Nor did he commission the Apostles to write anything. In due course, some Apostles
(and non-Apostles) composed the twenty-seven books which comprise the New Testament.
Most of these documents are ad hoc; they are addressed to specific problems that arose in the
early Church, and none claim to present the whole of Christian revelation. It's doubtful that St.
Paul even suspected that his short letter to Philemon begging pardon for a renegade slave
would some day be read as Holy Scripture.
dori
In Response To Sola Scriptura
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 20:03
It's not an easy question for Protestants, because, having jettisoned Tradition and the Church,
they have no objective authority for the claims they make for Scripture. There is no list of
canonical books anywhere in the Bible, nor does any book (with the exception of St. John's
Apocalypse) claim to be inspired. So, how does a "Bible Christian" know the Bible is the
Word of God?
If he wants to avoid a train of thought that will lead him into the Catholic Church, he has just
one way of responding: With circular arguments pointing to himself (or Luther or the Jimmy
Swaggart Ministries or some other party not mentioned in the Bible) as an infallible authority
telling him that it is so.
cont.
~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 19:36
Hurt feelings don't score debate points.
I hope I don't disappoint you telling you my feelings weren't hurt. :) Feelings having nothing to
do with this.
You were the one that brought up the libertarian creed feed, and I responded. :)
When one reads the bible, it must be done with an open heart, as well as an open mind.
I can honestly say I've gone full circle in this world searching for answers. God's answers and
the bible didn't serve me when I started searching, when I came back to Him, I found
everything I'd been looking for, and the first thing I had to do was face my demons, repent,
and trust Christ in His promise of forgiveness and salvation.
Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 19:28
Or, we could just say that sin is that we do not act as we should because we fail to perceive
God's love for us. Get a good shot of the love of God into you and the sin gets driven out of
your life -- you just start acting right. Works every time. The only people that don't believe this
are the ones who have never experienced it.
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R1 -- stored, 16:17:25 04/30/02 Tue
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
dori
In Response To Hi Stephen
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 15:31
You wrote: By Christian standards, I am a sinner, we all are sinners...but I don't adhere to
or recognize the Christian religion as having any more knowledge on this subject than a
pile of dung has.
And you have the right to believe that. Just as I have the right to believe the standards are set by
Christ for gaining entrance to the pearly gates and will continue trying to gain entrance by living
life righteously. When I stumble daily, he forgives me with the hopes I'll do better next time. How
do I know this? Jesus said.
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:35
But unless you read the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception.
By this, I mean that it is critical to read the book while giving equal weight to the consideration
that this might merely be the work of men with designs on control and deception. If you read it
with the preconceived notion and acceptance that this is The Word of God, without question, then
you miss a lot of possibilities.
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:31
"The bottom line is that we all know what you want to believe is true, and the bible has led
you to believe it thru nuance and double-speak, but no where does it actually say what
you'd like to believe it says to affirm what you want to believe is true. But unless you read
the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception."
The simple and straightforward counter-argument to my debate point would be to show me
chapter and verse of where it says in the bible that what you believe to be true is actually there.
Hurt feelings don't score debate points.
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:25
Then you should of applied your own liberterian creed, of minding your own business
when you posted this to me.
There is a time and a place for such posts, and this is the place. I wouldn't approach you out of
the blue with a comment like that if you were a friend or a neighbor. But this is a debate forum.
If you don't want to hear harsh critiques of your views, don't come here. Go to one of those
preachin'-to-the-choir rooms.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Stephen James
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:08
By definition, sin cannot exist. If God is all He's cracked up to be, freewill does not exist, and
Her commands cannot be disobeyed. If God does not exist, there's nothing to set the rules to be
broken.
Either way, Sin is a fiction.
Stephen James
In Response To Forum
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 13:04
How many people here accept the Christian religions dictates for what is or is not sin?
Masterbation for example...something that millions of children, and adults, partake in numerous
times in life...is it a "sin" just because a bunch of kooks say it is?
Or pre-marital sex...is it a "sin" simply because a religious group deems it immoral to be prurient?
By Christian standards, I am a sinner, we all are sinners...but I don't adhere to or recognize the
Christian religion as having any more knowledge on this subject than a pile of dung has.
Don't fall for the lie, Christian standards for sin are Christian standards for sin...God has Zilch to
do with it.
Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 12:51
Can you please define "Sola Scriptura" for the forum...???
~Inquisitive~
In Response To Ctaj
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 12:35
Then you should of applied your own liberterian creed, of minding your own business when you
posted this to me.
"The bottom line is that we all know what you want to believe is true, and the bible has led
you to believe it thru nuance and double-speak, but no where does it actually say what
you'd like to believe it says to affirm what you want to believe is true. But unless you read
the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception." Or your post saying your views
are correct...Hmm?
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 12:20
The world would be a better place if everyone would just follow that simple libertarian creed:
"Mind your own business, and keep your hands to yourself."
~Inquisitive~
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:57
The evil of this world is committed by those who are unwilling to suffer the discomfort of
significant self-examination and fear of exposure of their true selves. It is out of their failure to
put themselves on trial that evil arises. Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive
because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of
the evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within
themselves.
How true those words are.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:35
Ya know, I don't know who wrote that, but it's obviously someone torn with angnst, guilt, and
torment, driven by his emotions. Send him a note and suggest he try being rational, for a change.
You'll be doing him a favor.
`Ctaj
In Response To GerryB
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:26
Tolerance, instead of meaning treating each other civilly despite our differences, becomes
denying those differences, and criticizing your neighbor's worldview is tantamount to hate
speech.
Recognizing differences is one thing, but when those differences inspire calls for "lopping their
heads off," as happened again this morning on the PP forum, that, my friend, is hate speech.
Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 4
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21
How are we to take Christ's admonition to " judge not lest you be judged" and still label someone
as evil? If you see something wrong don't you try to correct it? Was Hitler OK? Was Jim Jones
OK? Were the medical experiments on Jews OK? There is such a thing as an excess of
sympathy, an excess of tolerance, an excess of permissiveness. The fact of the matter is that we
cannot lead decent lives without making judgments; general and moral judgments in particular.
Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging. What he went on to say is that we should
judge ourselves before we judge others, not that we should not judge at all. We are to purify
ourselves before judging others.
This is where 'the evil' fail. It is self-criticism that they avoid.
Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 3
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21
Think of the psychic energy required for the continued maintenance of pretense so characteristic
of 'the evil'! They perhaps direct at least as much energy into their devious rationalizations and
destructive compensations as the healthies do into loving behavior. Why? What possesses them,
drives them? Basically, it is fear. They are terrified that the pretense will break down and they
will be exposed to the world and to themselves. They are continually frightened that they will
come face to face with their own evil. Of all emotions, fear is the most painful. Regardless of
how well they attempt to appear calm and collected in their daily dealings, 'the evil' live their lives
in fear.
Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 2
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21
Evil manifests itself in an obviously strong will, determined to have its own way. In such a person
there is a remarkable power in the manner in which they attempt to control others. Those who
habitually practice evil are masters of disguise; they are not apt to wittingly disclose their true
colors - either to others or to themselves. It is not without reason that the serpent is renowned for
his subtlety. We therefore cannot pass judgment on a person for a single act. Instead judgment
must be made on the basis of a whole pattern of acts as well as their manner and style. We are
accustomed to feel pity and sympathy for those who are ill, but the emotions that 'the evil' invoke
in us are anger and disgust, if not actual hate.
Murray
In Response To People Of The Lie pt 1
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:21
The central defect of evil is not sin but the refusal to acknowledge it. The theme of hiding and
covertness overlays the lives of people with this penchant. Evil does not characterize our lives
when we seriously question our own motives, or when we are unconcerned about betraying
ourselves. The evil of this world is committed by those who are unwilling to suffer the discomfort
of significant self-examination and fear of exposure of their true selves. It is out of their failure to
put themselves on trial that evil arises. Strangely enough, evil people are often destructive
because they are attempting to destroy evil. The problem is that they misplace the locus of the
evil. Instead of destroying others they should be destroying the sickness within themselves.
GerryB.
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 11:14
The difference between the traditional view of tolerance and the politically correct view of
tolerance.
Tolerance, instead of meaning treating each other civilly despite our differences, becomes
denying those differences, and criticizing your neighbor's worldview is tantamount to hate
speech.
`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:42
"Some people" get attacked with ridicule and insults when expressing their views by
people on here who think THEIR view is the only view.
You certainly can't be referring to Basil, Stephan James, Timbuctoo, or myself, and probably not
to Coinkydink. Well all recognize the fact that there are other views contrary to our own. They
just don't happen to be correct views.
`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:38
This is my only post to you today, so enjoy.
Don't let your keyboard make promises your mind can't deliver. Your head might explode.
`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:36
dori
In Response To: No, the bottom line is..
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:33
... we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too
few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad fact.
dori
In Response To Ctaj
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:28
This is my only post to you today, so enjoy. The point I was making is that there is intolerance
here toward everyone--ALL--each of us, believers and non-believers, has come under attack.
That is unfortunate in a room of supposed adults. That is all I meant to say. As far as "some
people" feeling under attack when their views are disagreed with, that is totally off the mark.
"Some people" get attacked with ridicule and insults when expressing their views by people on
here who think THEIR view is the only view. And that goes across both sides, too. I hope that
clears things up for you so you can get back to pontificating. C'ya
`Ctaj
In Response To Coinkydink
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:20
Question, has anyone done a statistical analysis to see if there is more problem in the
Catholic clergy than in any other or in the general population?
Good question, but I doubt anyone's ability to come up with accurate statistics, since so much of
it goes unreported. Based on the number of women I've known in my life who claim to have
been molested as a child, I'd say it's probably fairly common among the "civilian" population, as
well. That it's probably not significantly any less prevalent (if not more prevalent) among the
clergy speaks loudly against the effectiveness of religion.
`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 9:11
... we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too
few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad
fact.
I don't get sad much, but I do get annoyed. What's annoying is when people come to a "debate"
forum and consider reasonable arguments contrary to their own as personal "attacks."
dori
In Response To Gerry
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:25
Good morning back atcha. I was catching up at PP and checking my e-mail. Did you get that
rain they promised?
GerryB.
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:01
Hmmm!!! No one here. OH WELL. Good morning. BBL GLW.
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Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)
[home] [vip] [post] [first] [next]
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
[Verified GerryB.] GerryB.
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 8:01
Hmmm!!! No one here. OH WELL. Good morning. BBL GLW.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 1:02
I like your boycott method... Question, has anyone done a statistical analysis to see if there is more problem in the Catholic clergy than in any other or in the general population? I think they may just be the ones who have gotten caught, so far.
Nah, Protestant ministers and Jewish rabbis and gym teachers all show similar percentages of pedophilia. What makes the Church special is that it isn't disgusted by those people and seeks actively to shelter them and enable their further abuses.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 0:18
"advocating seeking God on your own ... all you can assert at this point is that you have strongly held doubts." The doubts are about any claim of exclusive knowlege or elitism. I have no doubts about God, except that He is beyond definitions, certainly beyond MY abilities to do so.
"certain of how passages were meant to be translated" In this I have to trust the scholarship of others and I read from many sources and compare them. I am not a scholar at all. It is presumably about these kinds of questions that this forum invites debate. If there were no issues up for debate, why are you here? To preach?
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 0:11
But if you or anyone else thinks to convert me to their religion, they have to present something pretty convincing that equals my experience of God...not just a debate, but a true relating of something that has changed their spiritual lives. The ones who claim to have the TRUTH, have also the burdon of proof.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Tuesday April 30, 2002 at 0:01
I hold the belief in God as a positive continually creative being, a being of love by expereince of having clung to him while going through some excruciating experiences. He was made real to me...I glimpsed the glory and have been changed by it. Can I relate it to a doctrine...not really...I can barely put it into words...it is beyond words. But I continue to read and pray and study, hoping to find truth in a defined form, having found at least a positive group to worship with and not feeling like so much of a loner anymore.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 23:57
"you have some very strongly held beliefs." My most strongly held belief is that God is a God of Love. Love=Positive Creative Energy and that creation is something that is continuous and is innate in humans as well.
"Same tired verses" Those who would claim that Jesus is the same as the Father present time after time that one verse, that I don't think balance against the number of verses that are contrary to it. BTW you still haven't tried to answer that question.
"referring to them perjoratively as indoctrinated Bible thumping wonders and presuming them not to have sought God on their own" The ones I was referring to do not evidence the first sign of Christians love, they spout scripture, but it is from a dead spirit or so it seems.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Stephen
Monday April 29, 2002 at 23:41
Well, I see a couple of those in the non-Christian ranks, too. I guess it's not necessarily a religious fanatic foible, eh? BTW, I wasn't including you in the ranks of pomposity.
[Verified Stephen James] Stephen James
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 22:47
"pompous blowhards"
Pompous, From Websters : 1.Suggesting ostentatious display. 2. Marked by pretention of self-importance.
The only blowhards I see on this forum who are also pompous are those who arrogantly believe their religion makes them more important in the eyes of God than others.
[Verified Stephen James] Stephen James
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 22:11
Can you please define "Sola Scriptura" for the forum...
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink pt 2
Monday April 29, 2002 at 21:35
And yet, advocating seeking God on your own and presumably having taken this approach yourself, all you can assert at this point is that you have strongly held doubts. Some good seeking God on your own has done for you. So, you are a walking, talking contradiction. You seek God and end up with doubts. You claim a wish for removal of confusion and yet also claim to be certain of how passages were meant to be translated and then turn to express disdain for those who might dissuade you and to rip their scholarship. In the end, you've got nothing and you don't allow for anyone else to have anything either. By any standard, this is darkness and confusion. Contradiction and double mindedness. It's really very sad.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink pt 1
Monday April 29, 2002 at 21:25
No, you have some very strongly held beliefs. You post them up constantly. You say you have strongly held doubts, but in the same breath you both express the wish to have your doubts removed AND great confidence that you have the correct translation and that those who might hope to dissuade you hold to a translation that is tired and incorrect. By any standard, this is talking out of both sides of your mouth. You go beyond expressing doubts to expressing disdain for others by referring to them perjoratively as indoctrinated Bible thumping wonders and presuming them not to have sought God on their own. As if you know this for certain about them. (cont'd)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 21:05
"You have some very strongly held beliefs," I have some very strongly held doubts... I wouldn't mind of someone could really make them disappear. but the same tired incorrectly translated verses keep being trotted out to prove doctrines that may or may not have validity. If they do, fine. If not, why can't some of these Bible thumping wonders think outside their indocrtination and seek god on their own? If I can't trust the messenger's experience and I can't trust the interpretations of scripture to be true, then how am I going to trust you when you say you have certitude? Why do you have certitude and is it based on experience? Or is it hopeful thinking? I welcome your e-mail. TTFN
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:59
I'm here.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:50
I met your five minute deadline. Where are you? I am giving you the answer to your other question via e-mail.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:42
You have some very strongly held beliefs, but when they are challenged you retreat into a defensive posture of some kind. It's shameless.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:39
I'll give you five more minutes to respond then if you're gone, so am I. I really think I should give you and Dori a five point penalty for "piling on"... ;)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Dori & Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:32
Dorito: Well, I certainly feel attacked now... ;)
Murray: I thought we could discuss things and ask each other., IF Jesus is God, why did he deny it? If the original language says one thing, why did they make it something else in English? I didn't know that to tell what we have heard or think about something was supposed to mean that we know everything about it...we don't...I'd like to just shut this thing down, but I really can't figure you guys out and that bugs me. If you have all this "certitude, perhaps you can give some of it away. But you better be convincing, since you're claiming to have the certitude. ;)
Time Out Moderator
In Response To Contestants
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:21
time to stop...
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:20
The operative words were "WE ALL"! That means every person who posts here, even you! Now will you kindly leave me alone? I don't care to talk to you about anything whatsoever. I'm tired of you turning my words around and finding meanings in them other than what I posted. Thank you!
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:19
Give me a huge break. You come out with both guns blazing with great certainty about what Jesus wasn't. Not God. Not even the only begotten Son, but the first. Somehow you found one translator or scholar that conveniently disagrees with the other 99 per cent and you come off as quite certain that this is the correct one. Then you back peddle big time that we can't be certain about what any of this means. You've certainly had time to develop this very high and authoritative sounding argument on one hand and yet haven't had the time or taken the time to sort the rest of it out. And yet, this is fine with you. That dog won't hunt. Either you've studied and come to firm conclusions about Jesus or you haven't. Apparently, you haven't.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Certitude
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:14
Those who say they absolutely KNOW the truth are on an ego trip or they don't really know or they are trying to make us think they know... it is impossible that they really know anything other than what they have read or been told, unless they have had direct experiences with God.. Most Christians I've talked to say that direct contact is not happening in this "dispensation", which means that they just don't experience God directly. If I have given you the idea that I know more than anyone else, it is an incorrect impression. I, like everyone else hopes and has faith, but certitude will have to wait for Heaven... :)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:08
"The sad thing is that you will probably find a way to give yourself a pass for such duplicity. Certitude or lack of certitude. Whichever suits you at the time. " You have no call to call me duplicitous. I and you both read scripture and try to live our lives in it's light...mostly we try to figure out what it means... A lot of what we say is a speculation, because we don't know. You may have more formed or solidified opinions, but the truth is that you don't KNOW any more than anyone else. We're not here trying to knock each other out of the box with scintillating debate, we're discussing...at least that's what I thought was happening.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 20:04
This is what you said, do you want to re-phrase it or explain what your eally meant? " dori Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:33
" No, the bottom line is.. . we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad fact. " Didn't you mean that someone here is being attacked, possibly you? If not, I apologise for misunderstanding what the H... I mean what you were trying to say. ;)
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:59
When it suits you to do so, you definitively argue on the side that Jesus wasn't God or even the only begotten Son of God, but the first begotten Son of God and that we are given power to be sons of God too. Which means what? Apparently that He was a man as we are and/or can become.
When you are pinned down to prove this by your own life experience and realize you can't, you go into a riff about how we can't be sure about what any of this means.
The sad thing is that you will probably find a way to give yourself a pass for such duplicity. Certitude or lack of certitude. Whichever suits you at the time.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Coinky
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:55
Where did I say I was being attacked? Kindly quit editorializing my posts if you can't get it right. Why don't you post to someone who cares what trend you're following this week? Do you like having people angry with you? Do you think if you keep nagging at me and misrepresenting me I'll go away? Think again. I'm not going anywhere. You have a lot of others here to talk to so leave me alone. [first] [next] [post]
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Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice. Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not. --Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a backup forum. :)
[home] [vip] [post] [first] [prev] [next]
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:38
The Bible says that we can become the sons of god, there fore we have to figure out what that means. Does that mean that we will be like Jesus? We know we can't be perfect, so must we question whether he was or whether he simply chose not to sin...we have the power to do that. Or maybe it means that after death we will be perfected. maybe it means after several lifetimes and deaths. Again, it doesn't seem real clear, does it? One thing that is clear is that I am not perfect and neither are you. ;)
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:35
I like your boycott method... Question, has anyone done a statistical analysis to see if there is more problem in the Catholic clergy than in any other or in the general population? I think they may just be the ones who have gotten caught, so far.
[Verified Murray] Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:33
Make up your mind. Either we can receive the power to be children of God as He or we can not.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:32
You aren't being attacked nor any other Christian in this forum... you're being debated and sometimes agreed with and sometimes disagreed with... I don't think I'll see any of you in Fox's Book of Martyrs anytime soon.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:24
"That you have been given the power to live a life like Jesus did? Then show me by the spiritual excellence of your life that it is true." Excuse me? Did I say I was sinless? Nope. Are you sure you want to say that you have the power to be sinless? No one, this side of death, has that power. I have met some very nice people, but no perfect ones. The scripture says "be ye perfect", the word perfect here is an ongoing creative process, meaning be being perfected...it's what the HS does in our souls..shapes and smooths and paints us til we're ready for the kiln.
[Verified *Coinkydink] *Coinkydink
In Response To Ctaj, Inqui, Murray &10Megs
Monday April 29, 2002 at 19:16
"The Bible does not record any denials." The only "definitive, almost," statement is the ambiguous "I am my Father are one." One God? Nope, doesn't say that. One in purpose? One family? Could be. However there are lots of direct unequivocal denials by Jesus himself that he was God...he defers to God the Father every time as the one who sent him, the one who originated the message, the one who gave him authority to give the message, the one who we should pray to, the one who saves us, the one who created us, the one who loves us.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To Basil
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:57
I try not to be rude when someone addresses me repeatedly and clamors for my attention. I'll be happy to ignore you if you can make up your mind. You have a nice night, hon. Oh, be sure not to let the door hit your divinely dimpled derriere on the way out. *-)
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:49
Ah! I know. I promoted a workable method for people like you to tell your church to grow up, and you don't like it, because now you have to choose to do nothing, or take action against your buds.
So sorry.
Gotta go.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:48
I thought you said you were going to ignore me. What happened?
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To 10 Meg
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:44
Chastise them yourself. You're a big boy. Besides, you said you don't need no stinkin cheerleader.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To 10 meg
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:39
Still having a bit of reading retention difficulty, I see. What does the word "all" encompass?
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:35
... we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it.
Ah, so you'll start chastising those that say I'm headed for Hell, then. Thank you.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:35
For the best effect, have the mother's write the note on a voided check. The church will spend hours going through each check. Much better than a petition, I'd say.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:34
If that is what it takes, then so be it, but the vermin needs to be cleaned out and it has to start from the top.
Nope. It starts from the bottom. I mentioned a Mother's Day Boycott, to force the Top to see the Bottom (no butt jokes, please). Just as the Republicans let Clinton slide because they focused on Al Gore, so too will the Church let the Cardinals slide if the parishoners don't make a lot of noice.
Get a e-mail campaign for Mother's Day going. Simply have all Catholic mothers to go to church on Mother's Day, and put this note in the collection plate:
Good mother's don't pay to keep pedophiles in their Church.
Get a million mon's to do that Sunday, and the Church would change on Monday.
[Verified dori] dori
In Response To No, the bottom line is..
Monday April 29, 2002 at 18:33
... we're all entitled to believe as we like without being attacked for it. Unfortunately, too few people have heeded that simple tenet and there is no respect for anyone. That is a sad fact.
[Verified `Ctaj] `Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 17:46
The bottom line is that we all know what you want to believe is true, and the bible has led you to believe it thru nuance and double-speak, but no where does it actually say what you'd like to believe it says to affirm what you want to believe is true. But unless you read the book with an open mind, you won't see the deception.
[Verified Ten Megaton Solution] Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 17:43
If I could harness the teenagers of America, we could end our dependence in Saudi Arabia, and I could make Bill Gates look like a pauper.
A wonderful goal...
[Verified ~Inquisitive~] ~Inquisitive~
In Response To ctaj, TMS
Monday April 29, 2002 at 17:38
Hmm..ctaj is one with his dog, and Basil is thinking of ways to extract oil from a pimple..and you guys think followers of Christ are simpletons? LOL
Have fun with your dog, Ctaj, and Basil..I don't think that's the right kinda oil you're going to get out of a zit..but you can try! Let us know how it works.
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R1 -- stored, 14:31:29 04/29/02 Mon
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 17:02
John 11:30
I and my Father are one.
Yes. It can indeed be plainer. To become "one" with another is not to become the other.
Tree huggers feel they are "one with the earth". But no one is drilling their pimples for oil.
This identification process is a common goal for eastern philosophies, and John 11:30
would seem to lend credence to the notion that Buddhism influenced Jesus.
`Ctaj
In Response To Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 17:01
I'm just saying that Jesus' side of the story is not told.
No kidding. The book goes straight from laying in a manger to a 29-year old carpenter who
suddenly decides to chuck his tools and play God for awhile.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:57
All I'm saying is that the whole story is not in the Bible. Perhaps by the time it came to trial, his
lawyer told him that calling the Pharisees a liar would get him crucified?
I'm just saying that Jesus' side of the story is not told. All that is told is the story as seen by
others, if they saw anything, and if they reported honestly. Jesus could have said "No" at some
time and the editors kept it out to increase sales and the effectiveness of the pitch.
Colon Powell didn't actually say he wasn't running for Prez until after his book was sold. And
lets face it, if Jesus had said "no", and the editors had left it in, a few Christians would have
feed the lions, and the cult of Mithraism would have gained direct ascendency rather than being
piggy back
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:56
I and my wife are one.
I and my daughter are one.
I and my dog are one.
Basil and I are one.
The entire Colorado Avalanche hockey team are one.
`Ctaj
In Response To Ten Meg Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:54
Another time, some of his followers viewed him from a distance, where it appeared to them he
was walking on the water. When they asked him about it, he equivocated. Didn't say he did,
didn't say he didn't. He just let them believe whatever the hell they wanted to believe.
~Inquisitive~
In Response To ah
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:53
"plainer" sheesh!
~Inquisitive~
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:52
John 11:30
I and my Father are one.
Couldn't get any planner than that.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:52
"He didn't. He equivocated, and He let you draw false conclusions. He could have come
straight out and said it if it were true, but the fact is, He didn't."
Since you don't believe in God anyway, what difference would it have made to you if He had
said the actual words, "I am God in the flesh." Or, you could have gone to one of your other
positions and said that He was deluded when He said it. Or that He was having a bad hair day.
Or, if you're Jeanie, even though just about every translation known to man says those words,
you come up with the one that says, "The I am God lives in my flesh," or in some other way
neutralizes the meaning. There's all kinds of ways not to believe, in other words.
`Ctaj
In Response To Ten Meg Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:51
Main Entry: equiv·o·cate
1 : to use equivocal language especially with intent to deceive
2 : to avoid committing oneself in what one says
When Jesus was asked, "Are you the King of the Jews?" he replied, "So you say." That's an
equivocation. He avoided committing himself one way or the other.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:45
You are saying that "he equivocated", as if the Bible contains the complete story. He may very
well have said, at some point in his life, "No, that's false", and discovered that isn't the way to
build cults. The record, such as it is, is not clear, and not complete. That's all.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:45
Until then, you are a professor, a notionist.
Well, if you claim a quality in Jesus that He didn't even claim of himself, what does that make
you?
dori
In Response To Coinky
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:40
Was I talking to you? I don't think so. *-)
Murray
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:37
"Absolutely Jesus proclaimed that he was the Son of God...he also said that we are given
the power to by sons of God too."
Is this what you believe for yourself? That you have been given the power to live a life like
Jesus did? Then show me by the spiritual excellence of your life that it is true. Start by showing
me 70 times 7 forgiveness and by truly showing love, compassion and understanding to those
who have wronged you and hurt you. When you do, I will definitely stand up and start listening
to what you say. Until then, you are a professor, a notionist.
`Ctaj
In Response To Ten Meg Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:31
The Bible does not record any denials. The Bible does not record Jesus' direct affirmation.
The Bible implies that he was God, and preachers use that to fleece their flocks of millions.
And what was that supposed to be correcting?
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:28
He didn't. He equivocated, and He let you draw false conclusions. He could have come
straight out and said it if it were true, but the fact is, He didn't.
Correction: (I know you understand this, you've been accorded the Smart Guy #1 Award by
Mizz DDD/BBB)
The Bible does not record any denials. The Bible does not record Jesus' direct affirmation. The
Bible implies that he was God, and preachers use that to fleece their flocks of millions.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:22
It's not a matter of Jesus not identifying his uniqueness and his origin. He did.
He didn't. He equivocated, and He let you draw false conclusions. He could have come
straight out and said it if it were true, but the fact is, He didn't.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:22
Three, on Sunday. Hard to believe that that kid was once no bigger than her baby sister. She
doesn't believe us when we tell her that. (Of course.)
*Coinkydink
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:15
Three already? boy, time flies! :D TTFN
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Coinkydink
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:13
Doris is unhappy that I won't apologize for her failure to understan what I say. So she pouts.
I've got a beautiful three year old at home (and it's not Pat Roberston's race horse), so I'm
used to pouting.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 16:03
"a few pompous blowhards have commandeered the room." Care to come right out and name
them? You probably won't even get a slap on the wrist from the Mods, so don't fret about it.
And it surely isn't going to effect the "pompous blowhards" here. ;)
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:55
"Only begotten son"... in the original language, this reads "first" begotten son, pointing to the
fact that we can all be begotten of God, through the HS.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:52
Absolutely Jesus proclaimed that he was the Son of God...he also said that we are given the
power to by sons of God too. He said over and over, It's not my message but the Father's
who sent me, It's not my power but the power of God ... IMHO it could not be clearer that he
considered himslef a chosen man, a son of God, a prophet, even the Messiah, the annointed
one...but no where does he say, I am God. He repeatedly denies it and seeks to draw people
to devotion to the God that he served.
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:46
It's not a matter of Jesus not identifying his uniqueness and his origin. He did. Clearly. Sorry if
He did not stand up and say the exact words you insist He should have. From the point of
view you consistently share here, I seriously doubt it would make any difference to you if He
had.
*Coinkydink
In Response To Ten Megs
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:40
Speaking of DDD's"
There was a young lady
whose chest was full of surprises.
One was a flat'un,
one the size of Manhattan
and the third one really won prizes!
~Smirk~
dori
In Response To Stephen
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:36
Well, if you don't like soap operas, you're sure in the wrong place at THIS forum. LOL! So
now you're an intellectual too? Hee hee...
You had the most intellectual poster on the forums, minder, at your site and you hardly ever
went there to discuss the meaning of life with him. When this "discussion" becomes intellectual,
I'll be happy to enter in. Right now it appears that a few pompous blowhards have
commandeered the room. Now THAT'S a soap opera. *-)
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R1 -- stored, 14:17:49 04/29/02 Mon
Religion I
The Philosopher's Corner, (and its varied forums) is for those wishing to debate ideas in an
environment relatively free of personal attacks. This does NOT mean that ideas are not to be
challenged and/or heavily debated. Bringing arguments from another forum to this forum or any
other PC forum totally distorts the original message made, gives a biased slant and is
inappropriate. Standing firm and making one's case on its own merits is the intelligent choice.
Attacking and/or challenging an opinion is fair game.. Attacking someone personally is not.
--Susan
Alternative R1 forum
Benefits: length of posts are basically unlimited, and if webforums break down we'll have a
backup forum. :)
MESSAGES IN THIS FORUM ARE PRESENTED AS NEWEST TO OLDEST.
`Ctaj
In Response To Stephan James
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:33
They turn this site into a damn soap opera...and I hate soap operas.
We could borrow from The Young and the Restless and call this place The Dumb and the
Soul-less.
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:29
If you don't believe Him, you certainly will not believe me.
It's not a matter of believing Jesus. Jesus didn't make the claim.
Ten Megaton Solution
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:18
Does not the tale of Noah prove that God makes mistakes?
If it's not a "mistake", does it not prove that God "changes his mind", and thus implies
uncertainty in Her mind?
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:10
It's right there, Jeff. Everything is right there. Not just the specific answer, but the overanswer,
if you will. If you don't believe Him, you certainly will not believe me.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Stephen
Monday April 29, 2002 at 15:02
The mentally inferior ones who cannot check their emotions at the door really should be
left out of any serious intellectual discussion.
Not necessary. They leave themselves out. Any discussion they attempt to enter either flows
past them unperturbed, or ceases to be intellectual. How intellectual is it to inform the world
that you have a "DDD" or a "BBB"? How intellectual is it to enter a discussion on the import of
words and insist that since you cannot understand what certain words mean, no one else can,
and therefore the proponent of an idea must be wrong?
And on and on it goes.
Stephen James
In Response To TenMegs
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:58
"And it does seem to me that some here freight intellectual discussion with emotional
undercurrents that have no bearing on the topic"
The mentally inferior ones who cannot check their emotions at the door really should be left out
of any serious intellectual discussion.
They are incapable of seeing a difference between an attack on their precious religion and an
attack on them personally. It is not ignorance, as they do certainly know better, I see it just as
simple stupidity. They turn this site into a damn soap opera...and I hate soap operas.
Stephen James
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:49
"People do not become "children of God" until they are born again. Before that they are just
creatures that He created."
Poor Moses and Noah, burning in Hell because they were not "born-again"...how sad. And
now I understand why the Bible-God could murder all those people with the flood...none of
them were "born again", just fodder to feed the murderous appetite of a bumbling God who
still hasn't gotten it right.
Kill all the sinners on the Earth only to have Noah fill it up with sinners again...either that is a
stupid God or a cruel one who wants another opportunity to commit mass murder. Your
choice...
Stephen James
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:44
"a spiritually-minded person will demand that you align your life with the standards of Jesus."
Yeah thats the way it goes, religionists DEMAND you set your life by their guidelines...just tell
them to go to hell and thank God ya didn't live in the year 1600 when these demanders would
have come to your house with a mob seeking your head.
"the liberty that comes from realizing the absolute control and authority of Jesus Christ."
The Truth is just the opposite, Liberty comes with the realization that a 2000 year old corpse
does not have any control or authority over anyone.IMO
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:31
If you want a little help to get started, let me suggest that you cast yourself in the role of
Nicodemus
You mean, when he helped Joseph and the two Mary's hide Jesus, telling everyone he was in
the tomb when he wasn't?
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:24
I've read it, Murray, and it's not there. Not anywhere. Jesus never claimed to be God in the
flesh. His followers made that up. Your religion is Paul's religion, not Jesus'.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:18
I think Murray's last post is an admission that Bible does not record Jesus ever once saying, "I
am God in the Meat".
Murray
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:16
Actually, your total answer is right there. That entire chapter, mostly comprised of the words
of Jesus, is exactly what you need to understand if you want the answer to the question. If you
don't want to dig for it a little, why should I care? If you want a little help to get started, let me
suggest that you cast yourself in the role of Nicodemus and try to imagine that you're having the
conversation with Jesus instead of him.
`Ctaj
In Response To Inquisitive
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:11
That some men think that they are gods because they are the children of God..
Well, Psalms 82:6 says "Ye are Gods." I know what that means in American. Does it mean
something different in Canadian?
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:10
I didn't realize you were a triple-D. You must be a sight, what with your BBB and all.
dori
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:08
No duh? ROFLMDDDO! The disease of obtuseness must be going around today. Glad I got
vaccinated against it. Seems highly contagious, particularly amongst the puffed up. *-)
dori
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:05
Well, you can only have fun with it if you are scoring a hit on a mistake someone made. As I
said exactly what I meant and you folks misunderstood, I'd say the joke is on you! Grin...
Have fun with the instigators. I am heading back to work. Laterz!
`Ctaj
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:03
MURRAY'S ANSWER TO JEFF
Wrong answer. I have a bible next to my desk if I want to waste the day reading. What I
asked for should be very simple to provide, if it exists: Where does Jesus specifically and
unequivocably state that He is God in the flesh?
`Ctaj
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 14:00
No, I meant it's impossible to be smarter than I claim to be.
Murray
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:59
I think a few of us had a little fun with it. I certainly laughed when I read it. Has a touch or two
of irony to it.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:59
Yes. I understand words quite well. Better than you, in fact. Better than Murray, if his failure to
understand the simple syllogism last Friday is any indication.
Got a problem with that?
dori
In Response To Ctaj
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:58
Re: (and if you saw a point in her meanderings, you're even smarter than you claim to be).
That's impossible.
You're right. It IS impossible to find a point in her meanderings.
dori
In Response To Murray
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:54
Grin... it seems so! Since we are writing on a forum and reading the words from that format, it
seemed plausible to me that he would understand a statement saying his opinion was worth the
paper the words were printed on would mean his opinion was worthless to me. After all, he IS
the second smartest man in the world.
dori
In Response To Inq
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:51
I can't get into our other hangout to answer your post to me earlier. It froze up. I was mixing
up the word complacency with certainty. I hadn't gone back to read his exact words before I
wrote my reply. You're right--wording it the way I did, it made no sense. Go back and read
my post substituting the word certainty and maybe it'll make more sense. Grin... I know better
than to post and run. Gets me in trouble every time.
Ten Megaton Solution
In Response To Doris
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:50
I could not be faulted for saying this:
I do not sell my ideas. They're priceless.
Murray
In Response To dori
Monday April 29, 2002 at 13:49
Then, instead of saying they're not worth the paper they're printed on, maybe we should say
they're worth the paper they're not printed on, eh? *-)
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