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Date Posted: 17:37:07 04/10/05 Sun
Author: Elia
Subject: Re: hum... i don't understand the point here
In reply to: Chris 's message, "Re: hum... i don't understand the point here" on 05:32:23 04/10/05 Sun

hi,
>The other point about that little piece was that my
>chapter leader told me that our chapter was so
>independent from Chicago and Samuel Lee and that we
>had our own style etc. while at the same time he tried
>to follow the pattern of Samuel Lee so exactly.
ok, this i cannot gauge... here i've never heard of such a statement...

>Sorry, your logic is wrong here. My statement was
>completely true.
ok, sorry, i didn't express well... it just sounded like it to me...

>So this is used as a lure to make the
>ministry interesting for people. You can't deny that
>music is used as a means to make the ministry
>attractive for young people, to give them a reason to
>come to the center and spend time with the members, to
>give them a reason to come to conferences, to create
>an emotional atmosphere at confereces etc.
yes, that's right i think. but i think that happens everywhere. i think, many people just go to (modern) churches because of the worship and the "spirit" while singing... music is just one thing which a church is constituted of... (i'm sorry, i'm very tired, so my sentence-constructions may be wrong...)

>and make the service attractive for young
>students.
i think, that's a good thing... of course not, if anyone misuses it but... i don't know, i think every church tries to make his services more attractive... why not?

>Yes, but in reality you create a "good atmosphere" for
>a UBF service that has a twisted focus on UBF
>teachings, not the full gospel. So you support the
>leadership with your singing. That's the problem.
but i don't think this has anything to do with it. in what way do we support "a twisted focus on ubf"? in MY thought nothing really manipulating is said in the messages so far. i know, now many people would say, i'm just already manipulated by ubf messages blah blah blah... i don't say i support EVERYTHING what's said... neither do the others... for example some of our friends, who already are attending the services for a long time... if they think something is wrong or at least weird (not just message-specific)- they claim it... and so do a lot of coworkers and 2nd gens, too...
what i want to say is: we ARE able to distinguish what comes just from ubf and what comes from the bible...

>The point here was that in this example Kaleb Hong
>admitted how much he liked the idea that UBF chapters
>behave the same and build a "unit" everywhere around
>the world. The point was to show that "conformity" is
>one of the hidden agendas of the leaders. Mr. Hongs
>argument was not "we have our service at 11pm since
>most Christian churches do so and we want to show how
>the unity of Christians," but his argument was "we
>have our service at 11pm since most UBF chapters do so
>and we want to show our unity" which is a small, but
>important difference.
... which is bad? what exactly makes the difference?

>Also, please don't read everything that is written
>here immediately as an accusation. Sometimes they are
>just observations.
that's ok with me, but sometimes my problem is that it doesn't sound just like an "observation". in your case it's not such a big problem because i know you a bit, but oftenly the statements of others just give me impression of bitterness and sarcasm, even a bit of hatred. (read carefully, everybody, i said "just".)

>It was worth
>mentioning it.
no, that's completely ok with me, but i just wanted to ask.

>Yes, that's great. But I wonder why you only pop up
>when such little details are discussed, and not when
>we are discussing the big problems.
that has several reasons:
first of all, concerning the "big problems": i just don't see all these problems here. sure, there are MANY problems here, but they're a different sort of... i cannot say whether they're true or wrong. i admit: there are things i disagree with, if they are really true. but as i said, i cannot comment on them.
second, concerning the "little details": this here was just a thing in which i could not see anything bad at all, neither here nor anywhere else. so i just asked...

@joe:
concerning your post:
"you don't understand the point here"
yes. that's why i asked.

"Chris' point of criticism was that Kaleb Hong lied about yet another thing when he claimed that his chapter was "independent.""
i didn't negate that. i just said, in MY chapter things aren't that way.

"probably in your own unnamed chapter despite your claim to the contrary"
if you want to know: i'm from cologne.

"everything in UBF is some kind of "training," therefore, nothing is pure, not even the "privilege" to perform music on Sunday."
that's YOUR opinion. i don't know how it was where you came from. but i haven't made this experience.

so, bye =)

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