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Date Posted: 05:32:23 04/10/05 Sun
Author: Chris
Subject: Re: hum... i don't understand the point here
In reply to: Elia 's message, "hum... i don't understand the point here" on 17:52:14 04/09/05 Sat

while reading the posts to this topics i don't really understand what the problem is.

You are right, that every chapter sings the same hymn every Sunday is not particulary problematic in itself. It is just a little detail that proves that UBF is based on a kind of "franchise" concept and how things that Samuel Lee had set up at a time are simply copied top down and made a "tradition". It is a little piece in a mosaic that paints the overall picture of UBF. The other point about that little piece was that my chapter leader told me that our chapter was so independent from Chicago and Samuel Lee and that we had our own style etc. while at the same time he tried to follow the pattern of Samuel Lee so exactly. This was not honest and frank of him and is another mosaic piece about how leaders are not upright towards ordinary members and try to conceal their real agenda and mind.

>>"UBF is the only place where I ever experienced people singing the Our Father instead of praying it"
>that's not completely true, i attended worship services in korea where they acually PRAYED it. and there's nothing evil in singing it either.

Sorry, your logic is wrong here. My statement was completely true. My statement was "UBF is the only place where I ever experienced people singing the Our Father instead of praying it" which is completely true. My statement was not "in UBF they only sing the Our Father." Actually, we also prayed it, without singing, before Kaleb Hong changed the "liturgy."

And this was just an observation, I did not claim anything about this being negative or positive.

>>in another post here someone said: "the leaders will manipulate the sheep by using singsperation and other opportunities to perform music as a carrot."
>that's just rubbish, sorry. ok, i only can speak for my own chapter, but such things NEVER happened here. i don't know if you believe me. but especially we as "2nd gens" enjoy singing and worshipping - no matter whether it's ccm or traditional hymns.

Yes, and that's exactly the point. You 2nd gens and many young students like music. Some also like to perform music and singing in a choir or making music in a band. So this is used as a lure to make the ministry interesting for people. You can't deny that music is used as a means to make the ministry attractive for young people, to give them a reason to come to the center and spend time with the members, to give them a reason to come to conferences, to create an emotional atmosphere at confereces etc.

I myself have been part of the "praise band" that performed before the Sunday service. And it was not my idea, but the idea of the leader and his wife who told me with their own words that it was done to create the atmosphere and make the service attractive for young students.

we really want to create a "good atmosphere" for the worship service

Yes, but in reality you create a "good atmosphere" for a UBF service that has a twisted focus on UBF teachings, not the full gospel. So you support the leadership with your singing. That's the problem.

And I don't doubt that the leadership gives you free hand in chosing the songs and have som fun in singing. They want you (the listeners as well as those who perform) to feel well, and it doesn't matter to them which songs you sing, as they are only to "create the atmosphere," i.e. to "prepare the stage" for the leaders and their messages.

also, to argue about the time ubf worship services are held at...

The point here was that in this example Kaleb Hong admitted how much he liked the idea that UBF chapters behave the same and build a "unit" everywhere around the world. The point was to show that "conformity" is one of the hidden agendas of the leaders. Mr. Hongs argument was not "we have our service at 11pm since most Christian churches do so and we want to show how the unity of Christians," but his argument was "we have our service at 11pm since most UBF chapters do so and we want to show our unity" which is a small, but important difference.

By the way, in my life I learned that it is sometimes good to notice tiny little details very carefully. Often they are really unimportant, but sometimes they reveal a much bigger underlying problem.

In our case, we already know the bigger underlying problem, so we don't conclude from the small thing to the bigger thing, but we just prove the overall problem with one of thousands of little details.

Also, please don't read everything that is written here immediately as an accusation. Sometimes they are just observations. When I was in UBF, I always thought it was only OUR chapter that was singing that hymn on every Sunday. I think it is an interesting detail, that it was not an individual idea of our leader, but simply his copying a tradition. It was worth mentioning it.

and for your pleasure i also signed with my actual name. =) chris knows me.

Yes, that's great. But I wonder why you only pop up when such little details are discussed, and not when we are discussing the big problems.

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